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  #1  
Old 30-01-2007, 00:47
noturbo noturbo is offline
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Subutex, blocker?

This is just out of curiosity really but its something id really like to understand.

swim managed to get off heroin using Subutex and has been clean since june 06. swim was on subutex for nearly 2 years and on a really high dose for alot of it, the thing is swim used to continue to use heroin most of the time swim was on subutex and swim never experienced any blocking abilities of subutex.

Usually swim would wake up and take subutex to stop rattling till i could score in the afternoon and never had a problem getting a nod on! also taking subutex recently after a smoke never induced withdrawl effects in me whatsoever. It was the same for my friend too so i just wondered if we were alone in this?
  #2  
Old 30-01-2007, 01:18
Forthesevenlakes Forthesevenlakes is offline
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Re: Subutex, blocker?

SWIM has heard of a story of something similar today from a fellow lab rat. He told SWIM that he had taken 2 mg subutex a couple of times, then proceeded to use 80 mg oxycodone an hour later, and managed to get his nod on. However, his normal dose of oxycodone for recreational use would be 40 mg or so.

What dosages of subutex and heroin was SWIY using at the time? Did the amount of heroin needed to produce a nod later in the day increase from a normal dose of heroin for SWIY?

To SWIM's understanding, the antagonist effect of buprenorphine would at least partially block the opioid receptors off, rendering them inaccessable to other opioids. However, this seems to be true only to a point. With lower doses of subutex and higher doses of opiates, the opiates seem to be able to override the partial antagonism of the buprenorphine, and one can then feel the subjective effect of the opiate. This COULD potentially be dangerous, though, because buprenorphine also has a partial agonist property, which could have an additive effect with the other opiates ingested later to create a synergistic respiratory depression. SWIM has not heard of this happening, but its a potential or theoretical danger that he'd like to warn others about.

As far as buprenorphine not inducing withdrawal symptoms if one has recently taken opiates, this seems to be true in SWIM's experience too UNLESS the person has a pretty massive habit, usually only seen during a long run of heroin use. To be completely safe, one should wait until they feel the beginnings of withdrawal before taking buprenorphine. That said, SWIM did a little experiment recently where he took 20 mg oxycodone, followed 3 hours later by 4 mg buprenorphine. SWIM was expecting a bit of a withdrawal symptom for a bit, but to his surprise, there were absolutely none. Instead, SWIM felt a slight "mechanical" or "inorganic" type buzz from the buprenorphine along with the oxycodone effects. Several hours later, SWIM felt fine, no precipitated withdrawal. Despite this anectdotal report, SWIM thinks that anyone who is extremely physically addicted to opiates wait until withdrawals start to take their subutex, just to make sure nothing unpleasant happens. There are a few accounts on the forum of people taking the buprenorphine too soon after using heroin, and just getting immediate and hellish withdrawal symptoms.

So, SWIY is not alone on this, but it does seem to be a rarer phenomenon and is probably very dosage dependent on how much of each type of drug one uses, their tolerance, and the time and order of dosing.
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Old 30-01-2007, 13:10
noturbo noturbo is offline
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Re: Subutex, blocker?

well swims highest dose of Subutex was 32mg a day but this was only 4 weeks and he was on 16 for most of the treatment, the days swim was scoring though swim would only take 8mg when swim woke up. Swim was smoking heroin for 2 years before he started any treatments and about another 2 firstly using df's for a short while then onto subbies. Swims habbit wasnt huge but usually varied between 3 and 5 bags a day (usually 3 grrr lol).

Im guessing it may just depend on the person and maybe swim was one of the lucky ones (depending on how you look at it)

Another thing id like to mention, when i started seriously trying to stop and took my rattle seriously i managed to get down to 2mg which is where i stopped completely, thinking it would be next to no rattle! how wrong i was it was pretty bad to be honest and lasted way longer than i expected

The even stranger thing is my friend changed from subbies to methadone because he said subbies made him feel a bit speedy which he didnt like. He did well reducing down from 70mg to 10mg. Round here in the wilderness they let him take his huge bottles of it home because he couldnt get in everyday to take it. well when he was on 10mg the dr said to take the 1st 10mg from the big bottle and replace it with 10mg of water and to keep doin that till he felt ok, after a while he just stopped takin it and reported no rattle whatsoever, WTF?
  #4  
Old 01-02-2007, 05:14
Dr.Jones Dr.Jones is offline
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Re: Subutex, blocker?

You can always 'over shoot' the blocker and still get high. You just have to take more than normal. Seeing as you are only dosing H once, then getting back on suboxone, why would you even WD from h. Even if you were scoring all the time the dose would have to be high, but not completly unreasonable, to experince wd symptons on suboxone.


Either: You smoke h once in a while and don't wd
or: You smoke h everday but use the suboxone to cover up the WDs until you can use your H.


btw, overshooting your opiate antagonist is really dangerous

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buprenorphine, injecting buprenorphine, injecting suboxone, shooting buprenorphine, shooting suboxone, suboxone, suboxone blocking effect, subutex and opiates, using opiates after suboxone

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