Netherlands - Dutch Government: Dutch drug policy will end.

[Alfa]

The papers where full of it in 2003, stating this would happen from now on, but I can't find any proof on the net that this really came to be. I will check this out as I'll be in amsterdam this weekend anyway.

[max_freakout]

Originally Posted by Alfa

The papers where full of it in 2003, stating this would happen from now on, but I can't find any proof on the net that this really came to be. I will check this out as I'll be in amsterdam this weekend anyway.

I don't believe anything i read in the papers about Holland, it's 99% bullshit, Amsterdam is the same now as it always has been

[Alfa]

I wish that was true. We certainly have preventive frisking and a steep decline of tourism in Amsterdam. There are some parts of the city where smoking cannabis is forbidden and it looks like this will be expanded. Amsterdam is still very nice and whatever the government says, the population will still have to agree to the rules in order to follow them. People from Amsterdam are not thoughtless obediants.

[xctico]

It is in times like this that the population must resort to riots, burning and looting... to keep the government under control... and if they don't like it overthrow their ass...

[namooP]

Why not murder some people while youre at it. Because it verifies the negative image that cannabis users have. Resort to violence and it will only serve to streamline the paperwork.

[Alfa]

Hashcafés (Bars where they sell cannabis) are no longer allowed since last sunday. Almost all amsterdam Hashcafés in Amsterdam will turn into a coffeeshop. 4 will stay a bar and will stop sale of cannabis. The major of Amsterdam has plead with the minister of justice to keep allowing the hash cafés as there are no problems with these establishments, but the christian minister of Justice would not allow it.

Another development: Rotterdam will most likely close 52 of the 62 coffeeshops, because they are within a certain range of schools.
And another: the Dutch minister of health has given the order to research whether magic mushrooms should be banned.

And, like that's not enough: the christian democrats in Rotterdam want to drug test school kids for cannabis. It remains to be seen if this will happen, but it is clear where we are heading.

[Bajeda]

Originally Posted by Alfa

Hashcafés (Bars where they sell cannabis) are no longer allowed since last sunday. Almost all amsterdam Hashcafés in Amsterdam will turn into a coffeeshop. 4 will stay a bar and will stop sale of cannabis. The major of Amsterdam has plead with the minister of justice to keep allowing the hash cafés as there are no problems with these establishments, but the christian minister of Justice would not allow it.

What about places that are a bar and have a separate attachement for selling cannabis? Swim went to a sweet place in the Hague that had a single bouncer to check IDs for both the little cannabis room on the side that had large amounts of marijuana and bongs/pipes to use and the bar that was right next door where many grizzled old guys were toking and playing chess and people were walking around with trays of absinthe shots. It was one of the best bars swim went to in the city. Basically I'm wondering whether not allowing consumption of cannabis in bars is in place right now with this measure or if thats simply the next step thats probably going to be taken.

[xctico]

The darkest hour of the night comes before the break of dawn.

[baron samedi]

Would like to know if there is a mandate from the Dutch people on this? Do they actually support tougher drug laws? I very much doubt they do.
Personally i think it is constant pressure from the EU which is the major problem. They believe Europe should be united in the "war against drugs" and the Dutch simply do not tow the line. How sad that they want to criminalize a generally harmless minority.
Interesting that Alfa mentioned Pim Fortuyn, as i was under the impression that his party was much further to the right of even the Christian Democrats. Mind you he was democratically elected, so should've had as much right to govern as any other candidate. Given that this is Holland we're talking about maybe the far-right is still relatively liberal when it comes to drugs.

[Alfa]

If there are two different establishments for the bar and the coffeeshop, then there is no problem.

Pim Fortuyn was both right and left, depending on the topic. Which I think is how it should be. Although I didn't agree with everything he said, I think we would have been much better off.
No mandate is needed from the Dutch people. It seems to me that few things would get the Dutch into standing up against injustice. In other EU countries they set the country on fire for relatively small injustices, but here the Dutch people let large injustices and extreme changes to their society pass by. Maybe this consumer focussed atmosphere is the after effect from the once so activistic society in the 80's. There hardly are protest marches in Holland. That is almost an 80's fenomenon.

[Trebor]

So... this means that if Siwm was to go to Holland he would not be able to purchase cannabis over a counter but would have to find a dealer and if so he would still be withn the same possesion laws as if he had bought it from a cafe?

[Alfa]

Cannabis is still for sale in coffeeshops, only a few less. In Rotterdam soon more than a few.

On a lighter note: As you may know there are certain area's in Amsterdam where the police can search you without reason and they do this once in a while. Preventive searching is the term. The major has tried to expand these area's, but he was not allowed to do so.

[rizla677]

This does indeed seem like dark news. But i wonder how much will really change, basiclly the culture and the buying of cannabis will continue EVEN if it is recriminalised, as everyone who tokes will buy it from a dealer, plus the fact that underground coffe shops will surface. Swim lives in london. and has personally been to three bars/cafes in the city where you can buy cannabis over the counter. this will not die even if it is banned. people wont change just because someone told you to.





You wouldn't steal a car. piracy is theft. however if i could download a car i would happily have a lot of cars.

[baron samedi]

[QUOTENo mandate is needed from the Dutch people. It seems to me that few things would get the Dutch into standing up against injustice. In other EU countries they set the country on fire for relatively small injustices, but here the Dutch people let large injustices and extreme changes to their society pass by. Maybe this consumer focussed atmosphere is the after effect from the once so activistic society in the 80's. There hardly are protest marches in Holland. That is almost an 80's fenomenon][/QUOTE]

In that case, one has to hope that the coffeeshop industry itself makes some kind of a stand. I see there is a Dutch cannabis party now so at least there is some kind of voice to speak for those affected.
As far as Pim Fortuyn was concerned, whatever his views, at least he wouldn't have been bullied by the EU into falling into line.
SWIM's personal hunch is that even if the coffeeshops are closed, Dutch law regarding cannabis use would become comparable to countries such as Portugal, Spain or Belgium, in that possession of cannabis would not result in a conviction.

[Trebor]

Ok, so the current government is a conservatice religious party? Were they the ones who won the last election?

[Egon]

Surely there's something the Dutch people can do to stop the government steam rolling them? I know Alfa said that the Dutch largely let changes made by government go by them, but surely there's people willing to get some campaign going to try combat the government with regard to recriminalisation?

I just find it a little strange that they'd stand by and let cannabis (and mushrooms too!) be banned when so much good is had by having it decriminalised!!

One last thing, would anyone be able to tell SWIM if this current trend of targetting cannabis et al will affect SWIM's trip to amsterdam come the middle of May?? I presume that once SWIM finds a coffeeshop that one can purchase, roll & smoke in there? [sorry if this seems stupid asking, but SWIM's a lil confused with the state of affairs in the Netherlands at the mo]

[namooP]

The Dutch voted the government in and now arent complaining about the change in policy. Could it be possible the Dutch...... (shock horror)....... support the changes?

[Egon]

I can't see how there could be such a turn around in opinion to recriminalise something that undoubtedly brings in quite a lot of money!

I'd go with Alfa's thoughts:

Simple: first the person who democraticly overturned the government was executed, then the thread of terrorism was added and amplefied to such an extent that people tend to choose for right wing security over social matters and privacy. At the same time the stakes are high enough to get anything done.

[baron samedi]

SWIM thought that one of the reasons the dutch voted no to the european constitution was because of EU pressure to close the coffeeshops. SWIM's guess is they voted for this government, as Alfa said, for security reasons and maybe immigration issues. Might be totally wrong here though, don't know enough about Dutch politics, TBH!

[Alfa]

The city of Rotterdam will close 27 of it's 62 coffeeshops on january 1 2009.

[Nature Boy]

Originally Posted by Alfa

The city of Rotterdam will close 27 of it's 62 coffeeshops on january 1 2009.

That is very disappointing. SWIM would very much like to visit Rotterdam before 2009 then.

[baron samedi]

Surely the proof is in the pudding. UK and France both have greater levels of cannabis use than the netherlands, despite some of the harshest laws in europe, regarding its use.
Going off the issue slightly, wasn't there a movement quite recently in the Dutch parliament (if thats what its called) for the cannabis industry in the netherlands to be completely regulated, as appose to the ambiguity of todays situation? SWIM even thought he read the law was expected to be passed, but never heard anything else about it. Anyone know what happened with this? Was it under the previous government or something?

[podge]

This does not bode well. Are these measure's restricted to the bigger spots such as amsterdam and rotterdam or are they being implemented all over holland ?

[Alfa]

Although the majority of pairlament was in favor of legalizing regulated cannabis growing the minister of justice would not allow it.

Now The Hague is also going to close half of it's coffeeshops.

[baron samedi]

Is there going to be any kind of clampdown on medical use in holland? Is SWIM right in thinking one can be prescribed it for ailments such as depression and insomnia? Will this continue?