Have You Made Contact With Other Beings/entities?

[El Calico Loco]

I think it's time to share one of Swim's personal delusions. This was experienced on a moderately high dose of DXM (10mg/kg) with cannabis and nitrous.

He found himself sitting in what seemed to be a classroom, but not for humans. The teacher and students looked...alien, but not in a sci-fi type of way. Just alien. The teacher was telling the students about the human race, and how their race had shared the planet Earth with humans since the dawn of time...and how, due to an accident of physics, they can see humans, but humans can't see them.

The teacher looked at Swim when she said this.

Is it possible? Modern physics tells us that there might be more than three physical dimensions, yet our little primate brains can only see three of them (plus time). Imagine creatures living in the sixth, seventh, and eighth dimensions, looking down on us, wondering why we behave so strangely. Or perhaps our brains can see these other dimensions, but learn to filter them out at an early age as "unimportant for survival."

Analogy: Flatland. Classic novel about a three-dimensional visitor to a two-dimensional world. The 3D visitor can perform what seem like miracles to the 2D people, like touching the insides of their bodies without breaking their skin. A higher-dimensional being might be able to heal tumors or put thoughts directly into one's brain. This might explain all the old stories about gods, angels, devils, elves, goblins, and spirits; plus the newer stories about UFOs and aliens. Perhaps better than the "skeptical" "oh, it's all just hallucinations" explanation.

How's that for trippy? *smirk*


ECL

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Nice post, and lead to one excellent thread (even here in 2009) :)

[Alfa]

Pro: yes I think this is possible and even likely to an extent. As many animals are more limited in their senses than we are, they can not percieve us. Therefore it is likely that there are creatures we can not percieve. It is obvious that we only perceive a small fraction of what we can measure by scientific means.

Con: SWIY has experienced this under the influence of dissociatives, which makes it unlikely that this is true or real. Even if it would be then the experience is so far of the scale of normal reality, that it seems pretty useless for every day life at best and distracting from goals which matter at worst.

Either way: a nice experience for the moment IMO.

[Riconoen {UGC}]

sorry, I have to go with the "it's just the hallucinations" explanation. swim thought he had found the meaning of life once while tripping in the upper platueas, then he thought about it the next day and thought "damn, was he higher than mount everest or what?". and moved on. just like you should.

[El Calico Loco]

Well...I must confess that I believe it a little bit, just because it would explain so much and would be a much more fun explanation than drug-induced dementia - but I don't expect anyone else to believe it at all. I'm not about to start a religion around it, but I am writing a story.

That's the problem with modern religion. The search for God - whether He or She even exists, what He or She is and is not, etc - is a personal journey. No objective measure can ever prove or disprove the existence such an entity; any evidence must, by its very nature, be subjective and based on faith, not reason. Since we can't yet take thoughts and feelings out of one person's head and heart and put them into another's, no spiritual person should expect others to believe something simply because they do, no matter how strongly they "feel" or "know" it to be true.

(Logical arguments and scientific experiments can prove or disprove certain aspects, such as the coexistence of omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence, but they can never prove or disprove a more deistic notion).


ECL

[Kerrigan]

I'm extremely interested in this topic; whilst using various psychedelics, some people are known to experience contact and even discussion with various forms of intelligence, perhaps with a body to match.

However, my greatest interest lies in where this consciousness comes from, and why one is able to make contact with another sapient 'creature' during a particularly strong psychedelic experience.

Is it God? Is it your unconscious? I'm very interested in trying to discover the nature of these experiences and would love to hear about them, your ideas of what or who these beings are, and if indeed they are merely hallucinations or are actually real, although the definition of 'real' is fairly loose here.

What are your opinions? Does DMT make you see God? Or is it your unconscious? Is it something else? SWIM knows that he has actually spent a lot of time in correspondance with another entity whilst using Salvia Divinorum, whose knowledge seems almost infinite. It appears as though this 'person' is able to recognise the future and anticipate the best course of action for SWIM, whilst under the influence of the drug, and therefore SWIM tends to use these trips for guidance...

This is all a mystery to me, and I cannot seem to explain it, although I would love to. Please: let me know of your experiences and thoughts. Thankyou.

Also, if this thread conflicts with a pre-existing thread then I apologise; I haven't searched, but merely skimmed the first few pages of this forum.

But wouldn't one agree that this topic is fascinating nonetheless?

[Kerrigan]

SWIM feels that it isn't merely a 'hallucination'; hallucinations aren't as complex as these beings that one can experience through the use of drugs such as DMT and Salvia Divinorum; I honestly believe that whilst it may not be something outside of yourself, it is at least part of your own mind.

Perhaps that's all that "God" is. And why does "God" even need to have a human form? Why does it need to be a 'she' or a 'he'? It doesn't seem that the laws of physics, or reality in general, apply to 'God' and so it seems fairly foolish to try and define it within the parameters of our own universe...

Then again, what do I know? But still, SWIM will continue this experiment because it's fascinating. Truly fascinating. It's entirely subjective, and perhaps indefinable using language, but SWIM would like to find out whether it's himself or something else.

I would expect tryptamines to be more effective for this, rather than dissociatives, although who can say? But I'd suggest DMT; it's apparently fantastic, SWIM says.

[El Calico Loco]

You might like this.

Truth be told, I'm a philosophical skeptic. Consensus Reality is fine for day-to-day operations (and is what should be used to solve conflict between persons who live here - freedom of religion is a good thing), but I don't think there's any way to know whether Swim is talking to God or just to himself.

Perhaps this entire universe is an illusion caused by God, the only thing that exists, talking to itself.


ECL

[humdroid]

Maybe we should look wider than "beings" or "entities" or any other life-form, and maybe instead, we should ask, has anyone ever made contact with other forms of consciousness.

[El Calico Loco]

I think everyone on this forum has a pet hamster - or a friend named Swim - who has made plenty of "contacts with other forms of consciousness."


ECL

[dip]

(this isn't about physical dimensions, but is related)
SWIM always makes contact with 3 beings while on DXM; they appear as several eyes set in triangular dimensions. They seem to represent 3 realities which co-mingle amongst each other. They explain that most people see a single reality, others possess entirely different perspectives. When the eccentric individuals mix their fantasies with the majority's reality, it forms a third, chaotic reality.
While everyone "sees" with their eyes the single reality, the majority is conciously blind with strict beliefs, and so only see their opinion.
Kind of interesting? I can't tell, really, SWIM sketched it all out while robo-tripping.

[Woodman]

I think that there are a lot of things that we STILL don't know.

I know that 450 years ago, Galileo Galilei was made to suffer for discoveries that advanced knowledge of science, health, and human development.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei

Looking back, it is easy to see that what happened to him was criminal.

...but it was all in conformity to the law, at that time.

It makes me wonder about those things that we have yet to discover, and what might happen to the individual responsible for any such NEW discovery if our understanding of the information does not fall into conformity with current laws.

I really don't think the outcome would be much different from what happened to Galileo 450 years ago.

So, what progress have we made?

[Alicia]

swia has seen alot with her induced experiences, while she knows that the effects are caused, depending on its function on the neurochemistry in which it alters things can be seen. sometimes thou in things in swia trips (depending on what it is) has never come across in her life.

Or she'll be shown things/ or come across insights and senses which she can observe and talk about for hours, the big question is where did that come from. She has also seen far a lot of distant fantasy like landscapes.

She does not know what to make of them, she will always take everything shes and experiences with a pinch of salt rather then accept it as real like some people do which can in turn cause problems later on

[El Calico Loco]

Originally Posted by dip

(this isn't about physical dimensions, but is related)
SWIM always makes contact with 3 beings while on DXM; they appear as several eyes set in triangular dimensions. They seem to represent 3 realities which co-mingle amongst each other. They explain that most people see a single reality, others possess entirely different perspectives. When the eccentric individuals mix their fantasies with the majority's reality, it forms a third, chaotic reality.

That makes perfect sense to me, if you think of it in terms of psychology rather than physics.

Everyone exists in two worlds: the objective and the subjective. The objective is measured by math and physics and is the same for everyone. The subjective is based on each individual's mind: the way one's senses work and the way one's mind interprets sensory data; all of this based on genetics and experience.

The third, chaotic reality comes from people confusing the two. Some religious or spiritual people try to convince others that their own beliefs, prejudices, and personal religious experiences are part of objective reality. Pseudoskeptics (ie CSICOP) scoff at individuals' personal, subjective religious experiences (drug-induced or otherwise) and say that objective reality as we know it today is the only reality.

Both are making epistemological mistakes, in my opinion. I have a background in math and hard science. I know that science is real and that trying to deny it because it disagrees with some 2000-year-old book is foolishness. On the other hand, I know that it is possible for one person to be right and for everyone else to be wrong. It happened with Copernicus, Galileo, and Einstein: they were right, and Consensus Reality and Common Sense (what everyone at the time thought to be objective reality) were wrong.

Who can say that a drug-induced vision is wrong in an absolute sense? It's not wrong, it's just part of the individual in question's subjective reality. It is unimportant as far as others are concerned - no one should expect another to believe in something just because they have experienced it - but it is not Wrong in some moral or scientific sense. Pseudoskeptics ignore the idea that there maybe be limits to reason and data. There may be parts of objective reality that humans can't measure.

Perhaps "psychics" and "schizophrenics" can see things the rest of us cannot. The burden of proof is on them, of course, but any self-proclaimed "skeptic" who says they are frauds, delusional, or whatever else is making a positive claim: the burden of proof for that claim is on the skeptic. The proper response is agnostic. There is nothing wrong with saying "I don't know", or even "I don't care." Too many people want Absolute Truth so badly. Reality just isn't that easy.

Analogy: the one-eyed man in the kingdom of the blind. HG Wells wrote a story about this. The one man who could see wasn't king; everyone else thought he was insane and persecuted him, much like scientists, the religious, and the insane have been persecuted throughout human history.


ECL

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Interesting facts of the past, and present-day perspectives.Thanks.

[_caesar_]

I know this may be slightly iff topic, but if any of you are interested in entities or the contraints of the dimensions we are familiar wth this might be worth looking at.

http://www.tenthdimension.com/medialinks.php

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Great link!

[El Calico Loco]

Cool website, caesar. You might want to just give the top-level URL next time; I had to backtrack to find a non-flash version that I could view in my browser.

So long as we're on this tangent...there are countless "Grand Unified Theories" on the Internet. Many (probably most) are nonsense put forth by earnest crackpots, but some have enough plausibility to make you go "hmmm." Here is my personal favorite:

http://www.blazelabs.com/

(Check out the "Food for Thought" section from the menu at the top.)

This guy is either a madman or a genius; maybe both. I know enough math and physics to say that he does have some genuine (and extensive) knowledge of such, but his ideas on the nature of particles, waves, and gravity differ greatly from the Standard Model. He sometimes goes off on bizarre tangents about the paranormal, but then he'll say something incredible to back it up (his comments on the Nephilim Giants are priceless).

His discussion of higher dimensions ties in to what we've been bullshitting about on this thread. Some of it sounds very similar to the observations in caesar's link above, but the blazelabs individual believes the number of dimensions is fractal, specifically 7.25695...no, that's not a typo.

Whether it's right, wrong, or just plain nuts, it's a fascinating read.


ECL

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cool link

[grecian]

Originally Posted by dip

(this isn't about physical dimensions, but is related)
SWIM always makes contact with 3 beings while on DXM; they appear as several eyes set in triangular dimensions. They seem to represent 3 realities which co-mingle amongst each other. They explain that most people see a single reality, others possess entirely different perspectives. When the eccentric individuals mix their fantasies with the majority's reality, it forms a third, chaotic reality.

Surely given the way in which the third reality was formed here there must be an infinite number of realities in this model. For example, there must be a fourth reality, perhaps a mix between the chaotic (3rd) and the majority (1st), and so on leading to an infinite regress.

I am not trying to pick holes in your experience as I know very little about it and understand the futility of doing so. I am merely pointing out a perceived inconsistency and would be happy to discuss it further.

[fly-high]

i was just curious on a statement iv heard that we use 10% of our mind sober...so if thats true..and taking drugs that are made illegal by government make u see and think in different dimensions, then that was the way we lived before.

why would a higher authority stop the natural evolution of humans?

[El Calico Loco]

From what I've read, the idea that we use only ten percent of our brains is a myth. It's just so deeply entrenched in popular culture that it's difficult to put it to rest.

However, I do believe that psychedelics and dissociatives allow people to use their brains in a fundamentally different way.

Powerful psychedelics often put the user into a childlike frame of mind where everything mundane suddenly seems significant. The user can become entranced by the simplest of things...they look around in wonder at the world that their sober adult minds have learned to dissociate and ignore. I think this is what makes them so useful for therapy. In a sense, it's a return to childhood...to a time before all the negative programming was added to the brain. This can allow the negative cognitions to be reprogrammed much more easily than if the patient were sober.

They are also powerful in their ability to remove the self from the equation. Many people are great at solving others' problems, yet can't seem to solve their own (I've known psychologists like this). The reason is simple: the mind is trying to analyze itself. The observer and the observed are the same. It's like trying to use a camera to take a picture of itself; even taking a picture in a mirror isn't really taking a picture of the camera, but only a reflection of it. Psychedelics allow one to take a step back and look down at one's own mind objectively. Dissociatives (DXM, at least, in Swim's experience) can be even more powerful in this regard.

Why would authorities want to stop this? Simple: they are disgusting little primates. They are trapped in a primitive, territorial frame of mind ruled by fear, envy, and greed. They want people to be anxious and afraid because that makes them easier to manipulate or control.

Of course, the above applies only to those powerful individuals who know that many currently illegal chemicals are useful for evolution, both for the individual and the species, and work to outlaw them anyway. Others are just too intellectually lazy to read the arguments from the other side or too simple to understand them. They believe they are doing the right thing. They are being manipulated and controlled as well.


ECL

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wow, a fantastic post. great analysis of 'peoples problems' and psychedelics

[black_chih]

I find this topic very interesting as well. SWIM has had similar experiences, to a lesser extent and listening to SWIM made me think about the idea of contacting other worldly consciousnesses.

The conclusion I reached was this - as an individual you cannot prove whether this is an external intelligence or an internal projection of your subconscious. You would need two people to independently discover an objective, proveable fact - as revealed to them by some 'alien' consciousness - in order to have a basis for this argument.

I think it is also SAFER for you to assume that you are discovering the contents of your subsconscious mind, less you decide that these messages should be acted upon.

[El Calico Loco]

Originally Posted by black_chih

I think it is also SAFER for you to assume that you are discovering the contents of your subsconscious mind, less you decide that these messages should be acted upon.

This is an excellent point; acting on the orders of entities who only talk to Swim when he's tripping would be akin to voluntary schizophrenia.

I think the denizens of DF should perform a semi-controlled experiment (there's only so much one can do - double-blind studies are difficult, given the material in question and the dubious legality of the research). Get a few Swims to agree to trip on DXM at the same time and try to contact one another and exchange some information agreed-upon (but unknown to the other party) beforehand. Or they could ask The Others to pass it along.

Example: Swim and Miws agree to take DXM at 6pm GMT on a particular day, try to contact one another while under the influence, and exchange middle names.

It wouldn't constitute absolute proof if it worked, but it would be pretty damn cool.


ECL

[XtomX]

Swim would say hullicination, but not 'just' a hullicination. Swim think trips like this are like a lucid dream, its like connecting to your subconcious mind - or maybe - your subconcious mind is connceting to you.

[emineo]

Most members here probably find this extremely interesting, which is itself extremely interesting.

I've sacrificed a lot of brain cells and some of my sanity wrestling with different variations of this.

It's a tease. Almost like another one of those lions at the gate, except this one is very slick and there for the more erudite among us.

[bcubed]

This is interesting. Ever since SWIM began using psychoactive chemicals he's wondered about the nature of altered perceptions: to what extent do they constitute a legitimate reality, or perhaps consciousness expansion, or are they just psychic masturbation?

SWIM favored the more generous explanations as a youth, but now is a bit more cynical. Rather than completely write them off, however, he'd suggest that they can be useful to the extent that they reveal subconscious thoughts that usually get filtered out or ignored.

Example: while tripping on Salvia recently, SWIM believed (to a certain extent) that the musicians on his stereo were in the room with him; specifically, that everyone was in a studio and SWIM was being mildly chastised for not playing/singing and thus wasting studio time. SWIM has always had an interest in music and has contemplated learning an instrument, but never acted on it because he believed that such skills are best learned when the mind is young an pliable, so he'd always be mediocre. From this experience SWIM has decided to learn to play: even if mediocre, he can at least enjoy himself.

In fact, I'd argue that even drugs not typically associated with "consciousness expansion" have value. SWIM's experiences with alcohol--specifically blacking out--have affected his views of death. As SWIM never fought the blackout, and knows there's always a chance of never coming out the other side, he's become convined that death, also, ought not to be a terrible thing to be afraid of.

Powerful psychedelics often put the user into a childlike frame of mind where everything mundane suddenly seems significant. The user can become entranced by the simplest of things...they look around in wonder at the world that their sober adult minds have learned to dissociate and ignore. I think this is what makes them so useful for therapy. In a sense, it's a return to childhood...to a time before all the negative programming was added to the brain. This can allow the negative cognitions to be reprogrammed much more easily than if the patient were sober.

This "returning to childhood" conept is intriguing: as it allows a new look at the everyday, one can wonder if it might aid in learning new tasks and prevent one from becoming "set in one's ways" as one ages. It would be interesting to study and see if judicious use of psychadelics have any effect on learning rates.

[El Calico Loco]

Alcohol can be useful for some. It was for Swim.

I have a great quote. It's stolen from a friend's story.

During an MDMA experience, he became convinced that he was nothing more than a meaningless, anonymous mote in the universe. He was bothered. He asked a friend with more experience: "Do you believe the things drugs tell you?"

His friend's response?

"I believe the things I tell me."


ECL

[Trebor]

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...414#post171414

"Two beings stood on his eyelids but in such away that he could see them. Their two voices then introduced themselves as love and decision. Swim began asking questions, but before he knew it, he was told that they (Love and Decision) would see him on the next toke."

That was Siwm's first encounter with other worldly beings through useage of pyschedelics.