How to persuade someone not to try cocaine?

[Toma]

He's a pretty intelligent, independent, hedonistic guy. He's tried weed and ketamine so far and didn't really like them. He's an excitement junkie, an action-oriented type who recently started making major cash as a gambler and handicapper. And SWIM already sees the potential he has for addiction by watching his compulsive gambling. He is SWIM's friend and SWIM doesn't want to see him going down the cocaine path, for from what SWIM knows him, he is going to LOVE cocaine.

SWIM has tried to give him to read all the stuff SWIM could find, from info on its effects and dangers to coke retrospectives from Erowid. He just doesn't want to listen to all that, because to him snorting coke is a cool, glamorous thing, part of the high life he aspires to.

What could SWIM do to make him understand what it means?

I would be interested in opinions from long term stimulant users. What impact has it had on SWIY's life? After how much usage did you pass the point of no return? If you could go back in time, to when you had your first dose in front of you, would you do it again? What would you say to someone about to start?

[Pinkavvy]

If he's been shown the facts and is still interested, then there's probably nothing swiy can do. He's his own person and can make his own decisions. Perhaps he'll be able to handle it. Stress moderation. And if he ends up not being able to handle it, be there for him as a friend.

[Forthesevenlakes]

SWIM would back Pinkavvy's advice. Ultimately it is the friend's decision, for better or for worse. SWIM would say that SWIY should caution the friend about his potential for addiction, maybe show him some stories on here or erowid that detail the trials and difficulties for people who are long-term stimulant users. It's not glamorous at all to be locked into an addiction, but unfortunately many people seem to think that they can beat the system and use often without becoming addicted.

SWIY should advise his friend to set some ground rules and limits before even trying cocaine, for example, the amount he will do in a session, and not purchasing more than he needs for that session. Also try to get the friend to set limits on how often he will use cocaine if he enjoys it (for example, once a month or so), and to stop use immediately if he finds that he is breaking the rules he set down.

And finally, being there for him as a friend and showing SWIY's concern is perhaps the most important thing SWIY can do. Stress that SWIY cares about the friend, and that while swiYou might not support SWIY's actions, SWIY will still help him out as much as possible with gathering info, helping to regulate use, etc. Just make sure not to enable the cocaine use or progression to addiction if it happens at all, which I doubt SWIY would do anyway, but, for example, don't be the person who helps his friend find cocaine if SWIY is opposed to his friend using.

[Toma]

Thank you for the advice. But to be honest, SWIM would much rather convince him not to try than sit him through an addiction.

As for making his own decisions, I think very few people can make informed decisions about drugs, for the simple reason that there is little in real life that can give one an idea of what they do. From what SWIM knows him, SWIM can say that his friend doesn't even begin to understand the concept of addiction. And SWIM doesn't blame him, he has no way to imagine it. SWIM can also say that the state of mind cocaine produces is probably the state of mind his friend seeks most in life and values most. SWIM is afraid that if he tries cocaine once there might be no going back for him.

[Forthesevenlakes]

Originally Posted by Toma

Thank you for the advice. But to be honest, SWIM would much rather convince him not to try than sit him through an addiction.

I respect this opinion, but realize that outside of showing this friend the downsides to cocaine addiction, explaining that it could happen to him, and not enabling cocaine use at all, theres probably very little SWIY can do. Ultimately its your friend's decision to make, but you may want to give him a heads up that while you'd still be his friend if he starts using cocaine, you may have to draw the line somewhere. Where that line is, is up to you.

Originally Posted by Toma

As for making his own decisions, I think very few people can make informed decisions about drugs, for the simple reason that there is little in real life that can give one an idea of what they do. From what SWIM knows him, SWIM can say that his friend doesn't even begin to understand the concept of addiction. And SWIM doesn't blame him, he has no way to imagine it. SWIM can also say that the state of mind cocaine produces is probably the state of mind his friend seeks most in life and values most. SWIM is afraid that if he tries cocaine once there might be no going back for him.

SWIM believes the opposite. He had a pretty good idea of what drugs did before using them, and what addiction was before encountering it in the real world. SWIM thinks that the problem is that many people believe that they can avoid addiction...and only some percentage of the people can with a highly addictive drug. This percentage varies by drug, but the majority of users of any drug remain occasional users, not addicts, according to the statistics SWIM has seen. If he can dig up the figures, he'll post the source here. If people can't make informed decisions about drugs, can they make informed decisions at all? Or, who should make the decisions for them?

SWIY's concern is valid, theres no denying that. If SWIY's friend desires a certain state of mind, there are many non-drug oriented ways to produce them, maybe SWIY can help his friend channel his energy into one of these alternatives that don't involve cocaine?

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good post, thanks

[jdrug]

Originally Posted by Toma

Thank you for the advice. But to be honest, SWIM would much rather convince him not to try than sit him through an addiction.

The advice isn't suggesting otherwise, only that it is ultimately his decision. All a friend can do is provide information and advice -- short of physically restraining someone, it isn't really practical to control someone else's behavior. So, if plan A (prevention) fails and a friend does struggle with addiction, being supportive, caring, and understanding (like friends are) is often the best we can do.

Originally Posted by Toma

As for making his own decisions, I think very few people can make informed decisions about drugs, for the simple reason that there is little in real life that can give one an idea of what they do.

I disagree. It is possible, practical, and common for people to make informed decisions about drugs. However, you make an interesting point that seems to answer your question -- all the persuasion in the world can't really explain what cocaine feels like and this is why scare tactics, anecdotal evidence, and scientific explanations fail to convince people not to try cocaine. It doesn't mean those things can't be helpful and it doesn't mean everyone ignores the information, but individual decisions are as unpredictable as individual reactions to drugs. Furthermore, these anti-use tactics occasionally have the opposite affect as some people are drawn to the mystery of this amazingly powerful substance that has the ability to mess up a life. And many feel it won't be a problem.

SWIM spent a good 6 months researching cocaine; reading stories and articles, scientific studies, horror stories, experiences, propaganda, and various opinions. When all the information was reviewed, the overwhelming choice was to stay away and any reasonable person would come to the same conclusion, yet swim tried it anyway. Making an informed decision isn't the same thing as making the correct decision.

SWIY should do what swiy feels is appropriate; certainly make the best effort to dissuade the friend from trying cocaine and hope for the best. Just know that sometimes people do everything right and things still go wrong...

[jdrug]

Originally Posted by Forthesevenlakes

SWIM thinks that the problem is that many people believe that they can avoid addiction...and only some percentage of the people can with a highly addictive drug. This percentage varies by drug, but the majority of users of any drug remain occasional users, not addicts, according to the statistics SWIM has seen. If he can dig up the figures, he'll post the source here.

I'd like to see these figures if possible. I believe that occasional users are far more common than "addicted" users, but these statistics are very difficult to attain as the occasional users do not seek help, do not speak out as much, don't go to meetings, and don't stand out, making them hard to identify and quantify.

Please post the source reference if you can find it.

Thanks.

[bewilderment]

Originally Posted by jdrug

I'd like to see these figures if possible. I believe that occasional users are far more common than "addicted" users, but these statistics are very difficult to attain as the occasional users do not seek help, do not speak out as much, don't go to meetings, and don't stand out, making them hard to identify and quantify.

Please post the source reference if you can find it.

Thanks.

There are some conflicting figures, but here are some:

An American national survey, conducted annually since 1975, involves random sampling of two groups: high school seniors and high school graduates up to age 32. In 1990, for example, 8.6% of high school seniors reported having used cocaine (other than "crack") at some time in their life, 1.7% reported using it once or more in the month that they were interviewed, and 0.1% reported using it at least 20 days in the month that they were interviewed. Thus, in contradiction to the strong form of Claim A, less than 1 student in 80 who admitted to having used cocaine could be considered a current addict, if addiction is assumed to require use on at least 20 days out of a month (Johnston, O'Malley, and Bachman, 1991). Moreover, data reported below indicates that only a fraction of those who use regularly can be considered addicted if a fuller definition of the term is applied.

The likelihood of a cocaine user becoming an addict seemed even lower among the high school graduates. In this group, 41% reported having used cocaine at some time in their life, 3% reported use of cocaine at least once in the month of the interview and less than 0.1 % reported using it at least 20 days in the month of the interview. Thus, less than one student in 400 who reported having used cocaine could be considered a current addict (Johnston, O'Malley, and Bachman, 1991).

Other American surveys have produced similar results and revealed some further patterns. Kandel, Murphy, and Karus (1985) randomly selected a group of people approximately 25 years of age in New York State. Of the 30% of this group who had ever used cocaine, about 60% had used it less than 10 times in their entire lives, 31% had used it 10-99 times, 6% had used it 100-999 times, and about 3% had used it 1000 times or more. Approximately 2% of the respondents had used cocaine daily at some time, but only about 4/10 of 1% continued to do so in the year of the study (based on re-calculation of data from Kandel, Murphy, and Karus, 1985: 80-1). If using cocaine 10-99 times is a reasonable minimum necessary to lead to addiction under the cautious form of Claim A, and if we take daily use at some time in a person's life as a reasonable minimum that would be expected in an addicted person, we can say that no more than 1 in 15 of the respondents who used cocaine enough to be addicted according to the cautious form of Claim A could ever have been addicted and no more than 1 in 77 could have been addicted at the time of the interview.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/1/parlbus/c...lexender-e.htm

I'd like to see other sources of information as well though.

I'd also like to add that I had a friend who was of the high-energy action-oriented sort which the original poster's friend was described to be. He used cocaine a few times a week for maybe about four months that I know of and has since quit with no problems.

[AsIaN_ChIcK]

In SWIM's opinion. It's all about what he cares about the most. The key is to know what he's most scared of losing. And convince him that Coke might just make him lost that. Girlfriend? Money? Career? Family?

SWIM heard that regular use of weed makes you dumb. And that's what stopped her from trying even though many friends around her did it in college. Even though SWIM really wanted to try to know how good it feels, and it's cool.

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by bewilderment

I'd also like to add that I had a friend who was of the high-energy action-oriented sort which the original poster's friend was described to be. He used cocaine a few times a week for maybe about four months that I know of and has since quit with no problems.

ISO it's the low-energy, unmotivated sit-around-the-house types who are much more prone to stimulant addiction...

[Toma]

In my experience most people who haven't tried them do not understand what drugs do. Sure, on an intellectual level they know the theory – cocaine makes you happy, alert, aware – but these are just words, things that they imagine as a remote possibility, far from their real world. However much they would read, they do not make the connection between cocaine and their own selves – they do not grasp that cocaine produces those states of mind they associate with happiness and for which they are longing.

Now if someone is well enough informed to understand (and believe) the consequences of addiction, he might realize it's wiser to stay away from a substance without necessarily understanding what exactly would happen if they didn't. For SWIY, that might be the case; being exposed to social environments where drugs are used and understood, having had contact with users, gives one a pretty good picture of what they do, even if not how they do it. Or perhaps SWIY has had the degree of self-understanding necessary to imagine exactly what drugs feel like before trying them.

SWIM's friend though, is pretty much drug naïve. He hasn't had too much contact with them, and to him they are still the stuff you see about on TV. SWIM has shown him drug experience reports and his friend confessed to him that frankly he didn't quite believe them. To him they are this cool glamorous plaything he thinks he can fool with and that he can control as easy as deciding not to go to a particular club anymore. He doesn't know how powerful they can be and he doesn't know they can be stronger than him.

This is what SWIM told him, "You got it wrong. The problem is not that you might not be able to quit. The problem is that you might not want to." To which he just smiled unbelievingly and dismissively.

And SWIM was thinking about restraining somebody from exercizing their informed choices. SWIM was thinking how to make somebody understand what cocaine does, why you can find it so hard to quit and make him believe that all those stories are for real and can happen to him, so he can really make an informed choice.

The only people SWIM knows that have had addiction problems were heroin addicts, which is a bit of a different matter. That's why SWIM posted this thread, hoping for some insight from stimulant users.

Originally Posted by Nicaine

ISO it's the low-energy, unmotivated sit-around-the-house types who are much more prone to stimulant addiction...

Oh well, he's not really that controlled, energetic, awake type by nature, this is what he's trying to be like, but he's pretty chaotic.

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by Toma

This is what SWIM told him, "You got it wrong. The problem is not that you might not be able to quit. The problem is that you might not want to." To which he just smiled unbelievingly and dismissively.

You're right then... he doesn't 'get it'. However, nobody ever really 'gets it' before actually experiencing it -- just one of those pipers in life that have to be paid.

If this person is bound & determined to try it, then there's nothing SWIY can do. People ultimately do exactly what they want... game over, case dismissed.

[bewilderment]

Toma, does your friend have the internet to access info on cocaine addiction?

[Toma]

Yep, we've been through that. He just doesn't believe all those stories. He only believes what he wants to believe.

So you're saying I should let him make his mistakes and hope he learns from them. That's a pretty fatalistic point of view. I sure wish I hadn't made my mistakes.

What I have to do is find a way to make him believe that this stuff is real.

[Forthesevenlakes]

Originally Posted by jdrug

I'd like to see these figures if possible. I believe that occasional users are far more common than "addicted" users, but these statistics are very difficult to attain as the occasional users do not seek help, do not speak out as much, don't go to meetings, and don't stand out, making them hard to identify and quantify.

Please post the source reference if you can find it.

Thanks.

Heres the source: Warner et al. (1994) Experimental Clinical Psychopharmacology

Dependence among users of heroin is given as 23.1%, for other opiates its 7.5%, cocaine is 16.7%, and nicotine...is a whopping 31.9%

But keep in mind that there are limiting factors to addiction to illegal drugs like heroin and cocaine, such as availability, cost, legal issues, social mores, etc. SWIM isn't advocating prohibition by any means, but he wonders if these numbers would rise for some of these drugs if they were readily available?

[jdrug]

Originally Posted by Toma

So you're saying I should let him make his mistakes and hope he learns from them.

Is there another option? You do what you can to help him make good choices, but they are HIS choices and ONLY he can make them.

Originally Posted by Toma

That's a pretty fatalistic point of view.

It is the only realistic option. People make mistakes and all a friend can do is provide information, advice, and support. You can't live his life for him. I don't think anyone is suggesting that you stand idly by and watch your friend make bad decisions just so he can learn from them -- you try to help him as you have/are, but it isn't your decision and despite your best efforts he may make a decision or two that you disagree with.

Originally Posted by Toma

I sure wish I hadn't made my mistakes.

How do you know? You learned from your mistakes and he'll learn from his. He may also learn from your experience and that of others, but he's still responsible for his decisions and actions. It is admirable to care about your friend enough to seek out information to help him and it seems you have been a good friend, but it also seems naive and arrogant to think you can control his decisions according to what you think is best (even if you're convinced that you're correct).

Originally Posted by Toma

What I have to do is find a way to make him believe that this stuff is real.

Even if/when he believes the stuff is real he may still make the choice you believe is wrong for him. Scare tactics, horror stories, and anecdotal drug experiences are not guaranteed to be an effective deterrent (and sometimes all the stories and information create an even stronger appeal as he's different and unique). Intelligent stable people sometimes choose to try cocaine, even when armed with enough information to know better. There is no silver bullet tactic that is guaranteed to persuade someone not to try cocaine...

[bewilderment]

Originally Posted by Forthesevenlakes

Heres the source: Warner et al. (1994) Experimental Clinical Psychopharmacology

Dependence among users of heroin is given as 23.1%, for other opiates its 7.5%, cocaine is 16.7%, and nicotine...is a whopping 31.9%

But keep in mind that there are limiting factors to addiction to illegal drugs like heroin and cocaine, such as availability, cost, legal issues, social mores, etc. SWIM isn't advocating prohibition by any means, but he wonders if these numbers would rise for some of these drugs if they were readily available?

I searched for quite awhile to find the actual article you referred to, but could only find an abstract. The actual name of the article is "Comparative epidemiology of dependence on tobacco, alcohol, controlled substances, and inhalants: Basic findings from the national comorbidity survey." found, of course, in the journal you cited.

The article, as its title implies, is based upon the "National Comorbidity Survey" found here: http://www.hcp.med.harvard.edu/ncs/publications.php

I downloaded the data sets from various years, but could not make heads or tails of the results. It seems, however, from articles based on findings from the NCS that it studies the relationship between various disorders.

For example, if you go to this article: http://www.drugandalcoholrehabchoice...nd_tobacco.pdf
and scroll down just a bit to page 206 there is a little graph showing results of a NCS showing that it studied only a group of people identified as having one or more addictions. So, the percentages aren't those of the average population, but those of "addicts"

I also found another article which cited the NCS, but was actually based upon the "National Household Survey on Drug Abuse". This was the criteria used to determine dependence:

""Table 1 DSM-III-R symptoms of substance dependence (American Psychiatric Association 1987).
Criterion A:Three out of nine symptoms required for diagnosis
1 Substance often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than the person intended
2 Persistent desire or one or more unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use
3 A great deal of time spent in activities necessary to get the substance (e.g. theft), taking the substance (e.g. chain smoking), or
recovering from its effects
4 Frequent intoxication or withdrawal symptoms when expected to fulfill major role obligations at work, school, home (e.g. does not
go to work because hung over, goes to school or work ‘high’, intoxicated while taken care of his or her children), or when substance
use is physically hazardous (e.g. drives when intoxicated)
5 Important social, occupational or recreational activities given up or reduced because of substance use
6 Continued substance use despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent social, psychological or physical problem that is
caused or exacerbated by the use of the substance (e.g. keeps using heroin despite family arguments about it, cocaine-induced
depression, or having an ulcer made worse by drinking)
7 Marked tolerance: need for markedly increased amounts of the substance (i.e. at least a 50% increase) in order to achieve
intoxication or desire effect, or markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount
8 Characteristic withdrawal symptoms
9 Substance often taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms"

These symptoms when experienced for a month or more. They don't seem serious symptoms to me. They could be, but most of those reported as addicted may not have had much of a problem.

It also says this about cocaine:

"The overall prevalence of life-time cocaine dependence in
the whole sample is 2.8% (n = 230), representing 17.58%
of life-time cocaine users (n = 1308). The 2.8% rate
differs slightly from the prevalence estimate (2.7%)
reported previously by Anthony et al. (1995); this dis-
parity appears due to changes in statistical algorithms
and statistical software. Cocaine users with no life-time
history of dependence represent 13.31% (n = 1078) of
the whole sample and 82.42% of all life-time cocaine
users (n = 1308)"

So, of the 17.58% who had used cocaine at some point in their lives, there were 2.8% who were considered dependent based upon the criteria cited above. Some of those people may have only only had a problem for a couple of months and it probably wasn't very serious, but who knows?

I also found this interesting:

"Compared to non-users, cocaine users were more often
younger, better-educated white males who were currently or previously married."

All of this found here: http://www.psychservices.psychiatryo...print/54/3/363

[sciencedj]

Originally Posted by Toma

SWIM has tried to give him to read all the stuff SWIM could find, from info on its effects and dangers to coke retrospectives from Erowid. He just doesn't want to listen to all that, because to him snorting coke is a cool, glamorous thing, part of the high life he aspires to.

What could SWIM do to make him understand what it means?

SWIM says have SWIY's friend to watch several episodes of the TV show "INTERVENTION" (A&E Television station). Especially the episodes that portray crack and coke users. This might sway SWIY's friend not to go down the "coke path".

[moshah]

SWIM has this to say:

Cocain - Bloody Hell! I now call it devil powder. I am an ex user and have a M.Sc.

My advice - To use Cocaine is to put everything at risk; job; house; car; family etc. I lost it all and I curse the day I let that stuff into my body. The worst is the people that are involved in the dealing - they won't let go until they've sucked every last penny out of you.

Also trying to kick the habit is difficult, the first step is to admit you have a problem - this can take a long time. Even when you know you have a problem your too scared to admit to it. You always think you in control, this is the delusion. Cocaine has a very strong Psychological grip. the paranoia is very intense and takes time to recover from.

Just don't do it - take him to AA meetings to meet ex-addicts.

[Toma]

Fortunately I'm not naive and arrogant enough to try to control someone's decisions. I was trying to find a way to help him make his decision, by helping him understand what cocaine does. Maybe I was naive asking this question here, when the answer should have been more obvious. I can think of only two ways to understand it without having lived it, by hearing it from somebody who has, or in some cases by bringing it from within yourself, for which psychedelic drugs are especially conducive.

(Un)fortunately, I was a bit too far-thinking worrying about his cocaine use. It seems that his gambling addiction is worse than I thought. He's making good steady money from sports betting, where he's a pro, and blowing it all at the casino, in the well-known style: going to play some games to relieve boredom, playing until his pockets are empty, then swearing not to go near it again, and when he gets more money returning to the casino to get his money back and leaving more and more behind. It's a cycle of guilt and compulsion he can't seem to escape, and which is almost driving him bankrupt. I realized how serious this was when he admitted to me that he was going to get medical help and that he had almost lost his whole savings. But the good side is that he acknowledged he has a problem and that he needs help.

[jdrug]

First, I think most would be lucky to have a friend like you; we'd be fortunate to have someone who cares enough to look out for us and not only has such keen insight into our personality and life, but the courage to tell us. I admire and respect your intentions.

Originally Posted by Toma

Fortunately I'm not naive and arrogant enough to try to control someone's decisions. I was trying to find a way to help him make his decision, by helping him understand what cocaine does.

It seems you did help by providing him with advice and information, and (as Forthesevenlakes and Pinkavvy noted) there isn't much more you can do. You also indicated that you didn't think he was capable of making the "right" decision and all I was saying is that even though you might be correct and you might provide all the information necessary for him to come to the same conclusion, he may make what you feel is the "wrong" decision.

Originally Posted by Toma

Maybe I was naive asking this question here, when the answer should have been more obvious.

I think it is an excellent question and it leads directly to the perplexing issue of why people choose to try cocaine even when they know better. Perhaps there is no answer, but with such limited options and such a high failure rate it does befuddle. It seems there are a million reasons not to try cocaine, the downside is well known, the risks are many, the stakes are high, the seemingly endless supply of bad experiences, etc. Yet people do decide to try it and, as you allude to, there is little to compare it to...

I hope your efforts pay off.

[moshah]

SWIYs friend has taken the first important step and that is to admit to addiction (which takes many forms - not just drugs).

SWIM wishes him well on the road to recovery.

[sqyttles]

Try to appeal to logic. Most people have some sort of reasoning ability. Just do it in a non-judgmental or overly stern manner.

1. "Cutcaine" is a better name than cocaine. It is not the same drug as it was before the 90s. Perhaps if he lives in South America, this would be a different story. Anything he can get is not what has been portrayed in the glamor area of the 70s and 80s.

2. The economics of the drug are downright insidious. Cocaine subculture involves the practical slavery of indigenous workers by violent, greedy drug lords right at the production phase. The course of corruption detriments the legitimacy and progress of these 2nd and 3rd world countries. Cocaine proceeds directly support the barbaric gangs which routinely torture and slay undeserving people all the time. Not only that, governments around the world may be supplying the drug to urban areas as a means of erosion and impeding social progress and economic development.

3. The consensus of many I have met all agree cocaine has the worst comedown of any drug, more hardcore than speed, ecstasy, or anything imaginable. Also, they believe it is the most short-term addictive drug out there. Taking benzos, smoking herb, and drinking alcohol sometimes do not alleviate the cravings for the short, nerve-wracking high. All they want is more: there will never be enough.

Having said all that, he'll do what he is very determined to do. If you have to, you might introduce him to MDMA. It is a much more euphoric, empathogenic, educational, and socially-lubricating drug than the cheap white thrill. Of course, this is the absolute last resort, as people can be addicted to ecstasy (although it is pretty rare).