Opinions - Something that none of you will ever agree with me about.

[Police Officer]

Have a read and tell me what you think. Titled "Who's really in prison for mairjuana?"

http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/...son_for_marij/

[Nagognog2]

Anyone who took an English writing course in college and wrote that would get a D-.

Take page 7 as an example. The author begins with establishing a premis: Drugs harm the user and the community. Then merrily goes on his way without citing how. Instead he states this is established as fact BECAUSE HE WROTE THAT IT DOES AND YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS. Pathetic.

Perhaps this sort of jingoistic pablum can convince people who squeaked by in high school and went on to a job serving french-fries, but any university student could (or should get their tuition reimbursed) make mince-meat out of this alone.

Let's try one small example of the author's logic from page 7: Drug use harms the user and community:

Mrs. Kronenberg suffers from carpal-tunnel syndrome. Mrs. Knonenberg takes an opiate every day for pain. Mrs. Kronenberg is harming herself and her community. Regardless of a valid prescription for these opiate - Mrs. Kronenberg is a hurting and harmful person! Arrest her! She is taking drugs.

That is the same logic - and lack thereof - as the author is suggesting the reader believe and follow to the letter.

D-. I'd suggest the author go to his local community college and take at LEAST one course in English and writing. That this is coming from a government printing office is an embarrassment to the USA.

Reputation Comments on this post:

good rebuttal

[Police Officer]

Originally Posted by Nagognog2

Mrs. Kronenberg suffers from carpal-tunnel syndrome. Mrs. Knonenberg takes an opiate every day for pain. Mrs. Kronenberg is harming herself and her community. Regardless of a valid prescription for these opiate - Mrs. Kronenberg is a hurting and harmful person! Arrest her! She is taking drugs.

That is the same logic - and lack thereof - as the author is suggesting the reader believe and follow to the letter.

I must have read a different report. Either that or I need to reread it. I dont recall the part where those with legitimate illnesses that require pain medication is hurting the U.S. Nog, dont you think you're stretching it a little bit?

[Woodman]

Originally Posted by Police Officer

I must have read a different report. Either that or I need to reread it. I dont recall the part where those with legitimate illnesses that require pain medication is hurting the U.S. Nog, dont you think you're stretching it a little bit?

Hmmmmm...

Why do so many LEO's & P/D's oppose medical marijuana use?

[Woodman]

Originally Posted by Woodman

Hmmmmm...

Why do so many LEO's & P/D's oppose medical marijuana use?

So... Why?

I'm still waiting for the author to respond.

[darawk]

I only read the summary, but they say:

"and less than one percent of all state prisoners (0.7 percent) were incarcerated with marijuana possession as the only charge,"

And while .7% might seem low, it's still an insanely high figure - accounting for millions of dollars in tax money, maybe billions if you include the trial and salaries of all the public servants involved in making the bust, public defenders, prosecutors, etc...

Now, I do realize that a lot of these are for cases in which someone "pled down" to a charge of possession, however the fact that laws even exist on the books by which someone could be imprisoned for "possession" of marijuana is absolutely obscene by any reasonable standard. And even though there are a lot of cases in which other charges were dropped, i'd still bet that the majority of them are genuinely for possession on it's own.

I do realize that you're a police officer(or I assume you are since you are making this point and use the name "police officer" =p), but I have to assume that since you post here, you are a fairly open minded and/or enlightened cop. Which means that you probably let most people you catch wtih weed go free with a warning/confiscation/ticket. And indeed, that has been SWIM and his friend's experience with most police officers in their area. However, you must remember that somewhere around 30% of americans use marijuana every year. That is about 100 million people. If 100 million people are smoking marijuana every year, and let's say 1% of them get caught with it and 1% of those cases actually gets imprisoned for possession, that's still 10,000 people in jail for mere possession of marijuana, which equates to a massive amount of money for tax payers. Not to mention the moral absurdity of imprisoning someone for using a drug of any kind.

[Nagognog2]

Nope. He's not defending his premis. What I'm saying that he leaves such open to such conjecture by failing to follow through with such defense.

I did go to college.

[Police Officer]

Originally Posted by darawk

If 100 million people are smoking marijuana every year, and let's say 1% of them get caught with it and 1% of those cases actually gets imprisoned for possession, that's still 10,000 people in jail for mere possession of marijuana, which equates to a massive amount of money for tax payers. Not to mention the moral absurdity of imprisoning someone for using a drug of any kind.

I would have to say that since possession of marijuana is most often a misdemeanor that people arent spending a whole lot of time in the pokey for "personal use" amounts. Would you agree that the majority of people who go to jail for possession are also in there for some other reason?

[bottlekop]

Originally Posted by Police Officer

I would have to say that since possession of marijuana is most often a misdemeanor that people arent spending a whole lot of time in the pokey for "personal use" amounts. Would you agree that the majority of people who go to jail for possession are also in there for some other reason?

what is a "personal use" amount? Isn't that up to the interpretation of who you're asking? So recreational users with a larger amount (intended for "personal use") might be convicted of being a dealer and get a much longer sentance. what if swibk likes to buy a little bulk? Or uses more (per day/week) than someone else?

And another thing; if Some drug users are harmful to society; this is often because the drugs are illeagal. This means that the potencial for criminal acttivity to get them is higher because they have to interact with an illeagal market (this does mean that this is always the case though).

90% of the problems with drugs can be solved by their legalization.
The problems it would solve:

1) safety (to a large extent) - properly funded research; no drugs cut with dangerous substances; far more open pollicy so rehabbilitation from addiction will be more likely.

2)social - people shuned and rejected for their beliefs and recreation will be protected like any other citizen (who has their right to freedom of religion and of expression). More open pollicy = better response from people (for those with addiction problem etc..). Less Propaganda will be out there; and... it could Even be replaced with Facts(Now that would be something to see!). this would restore a lot of trust in government etc...

the other 10% will be:

1) the possibillity of addiction (although it will be greatly lowered with the right information available).

2)the possibillity of over-dose (greatly lowered by right information being available; and by havving know quantities(sp) in each hit of a drug-
eg. a tablette from a pharmacy(sp) contains exactly what it says on the box, mostly anyway. Drugs could be sold in the same way. Also no dangerous extras/ unsafe combinations)

The idea of makking drugs illeagal; came from confussing "leagal & illeagal" with "wrong and right".

[Bajeda]

Originally Posted by Police Officer

I would have to say that since possession of marijuana is most often a misdemeanor that people arent spending a whole lot of time in the pokey for "personal use" amounts. Would you agree that the majority of people who go to jail for possession are also in there for some other reason?

What are the other reasons though?

Traffic violations account for a decent amount where swim used to live.

Some of swim's friends got busted the other year with a fake id and got an MIP as well. Those are other offenses, one a felony so its much higher, that go along with the MJ one. Still, comparing that to how many people swim knows at university who use fake ids (or real ones from other people) and don't smoke MJ....


I know a good amount of other reasons people get caught with MJ, as it isn't too hard to avoid getting caught depending where you are. Still, alot of those other reaons aren't that serious either. I'd like to see more statistics, even though I don't take them to heart to begin with, its still nice to have a glance.




BajEdit: And bottlekop don't go throwing around predictions you can't support now. We don't know how many of the problems will be instantly solved by legalizing certain drugs. I certainly doubt it will be that much. But I believe that legalization combined with other measures can start tackling many of the issues we face today stemming from drug use and its prohibition. Just keep in mind that it will take work. Don't be on the fringe and claim that ending prohibition will simply solve everything because statements like that are a detriment to our case for it.

[old hippie 56]

Brought up a good point bottlekop, personal use/medical use. DEA is spending obscene amounts of taxpayers dollars hounding med. users in states that the voters had given the ok for medical marijuana. Locking up grandmothers and disabled people for growing and using marijuana.

[Nature Boy]

I don't care if someone gets locked up for possessing a gram of marijuana or a kilo of marijuana. It's a benign drug. It's never killed anyone. I see more harm in a wholesale liquor supplier than a wholesale marijuana dealer. Prohibitionists can twist their ideas in any way they want but the fact of the matter is, marijuana is practically harmless and no amount of marijuana is worthy of putting someone in prison.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	amen to that sir
	Amen to that.
	very true; good point

[sergei77]

After spending over 1 trillion dollars on the war on drugs in 10 years the United States now has some of the highest drug use rates in the world (Marijuana use rates are approximately twice those of Holland where it is practically legal) and the highest incarceration rates in the world. If you think that money was well spent, cosider that $19 billion a year would completely eliminate starvation and malnutrition globally according to the World Bank.

Here are a couple of nice stories about what your country's drug laws are doing to its citizens:

Jonathan Magbie



Jonathan Magbie was a 27-year-old man who was paralyzed from the neck down as a result of a childhood accident. Although he had never been convicted of a criminal offense and although he required private nursing care for as much as 20 hours a day, Magbie was given a 10-day sentence in the D.C. jail in September 2004 by D.C. Superior Court Judge Judith E. Retchin for possession of a marijuana cigarette. He died in city custody four days later.

http://www.november.org/thewall/case.../magbie-j.html

Tyrone Brown

Prisoner #554317

Life in Prison for Smoking Marijuana

Mr. Brown was arrested for a $2 stickup in which no one was hurt. For this he received 10 years on probation. He was caught smoking marijuana and that original sentence was converted to a life in prison. Mr. Brown was 17 at the time and has spent the last 16 years in prison. The Judge's final words - "Good Luck, Mr. Brown."

http://www.savemrbrown.com/

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=2632423

Reputation Comments on this post:

Incredible story. More proof of the lunacy of the USA WoD

[Police Officer]

Originally Posted by sergei77

Tyrone Brown

Prisoner #554317

Life in Prison for Smoking Marijuana

Mr. Brown was arrested for a $2 stickup in which no one was hurt. For this he received 10 years on probation. He was caught smoking marijuana and that original sentence was converted to a life in prison. Mr. Brown was 17 at the time and has spent the last 16 years in prison.

No, Mr. Brown has spent 16 years in prison for an armed robbery. Armed robbery being robbing someone with a deadly weapon. No one was hurt, huh? Ask someone whos been robbed at gunpoint if no one was hurt. I imagine they will tell you that although they werent physically hurt it was an emotional and psychological nightmare that didnt end when the robbery was over. I imagine they might also tell you that it is an experience that made them wake up at night in terror for months. But nevermind that, we must think of poor, poor, poor Mr. Brown.

When an individual agrees to probation or parole they agree to not break the law anymore. In turn they dont go to prison. Being sentenced to probation and parole is a priviledge, not a right. Well he broke the agreement and now he's in prison. Again, he is in prison for armed robbery, not possession of marijuana. If you believe otherwise you are a lemming that automatically assumes that what the media says is true. I dont mean to be hurting feelings, but thats kinda how it is.

On another note, I promise you that if you conduct a criminal history check of Mr. Brown you will find that the robbery wasnt his first violent felony. Good honest people dont wake up one day and say "Ya know, Ima go rob someone." Career criminals are the ones who say that.

On one more side note, it takes more than one violation of your probation/parole to be sent it. It usually takes several obvious and blatent violations. Dont believe me? Call or visit your local probation/parole office.

Originally Posted by Pinkavvy

Yeah, that's a good question. Police Officer, why is it that you and your kind are so against patients using legal medical marijuana? you have to admit that marijuana is less harmful to the community, and the patient, then pain medications such as oxycontin.

I never said that I'm against any LEGAL medication that is used within the guidelines that it's prescribed. If you're prescribed oxy or pot for illnesses and they help you be pain free...you can stay high all day long for all I'm concerned. When the skels start selling that stuff is when people like me step in.

[CrookedEye]

Originally Posted by Police Officer

No, Mr. Brown has spent 16 years in prison for an armed robbery. Armed robbery being robbing someone with a deadly weapon. No one was hurt, huh? Ask someone whos been robbed at gunpoint if no one was hurt. I imagine they will tell you that although they werent physically hurt it was an emotional and psychological nightmare that didnt end when the robbery was over. I imagine they might also tell you that it is an experience that made them wake up at night in terror for months. But nevermind that, we must think of poor, poor, poor Mr. Brown.

When an individual agrees to probation or parole they agree to not break the law anymore. In turn they dont go to prison. Being sentenced to probation and parole is a priviledge, not a right. Well he broke the agreement and now he's in prison. Again, he is in prison for armed robbery, not possession of marijuana. If you believe otherwise you are a lemming that automatically assumes that what the media says is true. I dont mean to be hurting feelings, but thats kinda how it is.

On another note, I promise you that if you conduct a criminal history check of Mr. Brown you will find that the robbery wasnt his first violent felony. Good honest people dont wake up one day and say "Ya know, Ima go rob someone." Career criminals are the ones who say that.

On one more side note, it takes more than one violation of your probation/parole to be sent it. It usually takes several obvious and blatent violations. Dont believe me? Call or visit your local probation/parole office.

BTW, SWIM's FOAF is now a felon because he got caught with possession of drugs, then started probation, and a methadone program.. Turns out that methadone greatly slows ones metabolism which caused him to pee dirty from extended cannabis use, which he had quit..

His charges would have been dropped, but since the methadone made it take 2-3 months for him to fully piss clean, even without smoking, he is now a felon, has a terrible time trying to find a job, and has no way to get funding for school.. Pretty costly mistake for a 20 year old with children..

Is this the way the legal system is supposed to help people? Sure it was SWIM's fault he became addicted to drugs, but instead of helping him get off drugs or affecting him in any positive type of reform, he now has very little opportunity to make a life in legal society.. How is that right or fair?

He has kicked opiates and methadone, doesn't use any hard drugs anymore, and enjoys psychedelics and cannabis.. He is happy, but he still has major odds stacked against him for any legit career, gainful empoyment, or schooling.. Not a very good way to rehabilitate anyone..

Punishment should be for violent criminals, rapists, and thieves, but drug users shouldn't be charged with anything, unless they are hurting someone other than themselves physically or financially.. There are plenty of addicts and non-addict drug users that live perfectly normal lives, and the only trouble they ever come across is by cops and the law..

Originally Posted by Police Officer

I would have to say that since possession of marijuana is most often a misdemeanor that people arent spending a whole lot of time in the pokey for "personal use" amounts. Would you agree that the majority of people who go to jail for possession are also in there for some other reason?

So, where would people get personal amounts, if they don't or can't grow? And should they be able to provide their own by growing? As that would bring cultivation charges, which in many states, gives jail time.

What is it, Police Officer, that you feel should be done with cannabis and the rest of the drug war? If SWIY is a cop, then a big part of the reason SWIY gets paid and has a job is by enforcing the drug laws, as that is where most of the revenue to pay officers' salaries comes from, forfeiture of assets and cash.. Corruption is abound in nearly every facet of American business and life, and perpetuating the cycle, by making people fearful of drugs is just horrendous..

Any Police Officer who takes the job, straps on a badge/gun, and feels the right to enforce the drug laws, is dangerous.. I believe all police officers, who do not stand up against the drug war, are enemies to freethinkers..

Just following orders and doing your job, officer? I believe officers should learn how to really protect and serve the community, rather than possibly tear apart families and careers for a little herb smoke..

I can easily see why many of us will never agree with SWIY, as SWIY probably has vested interest in busting any perp they can..

[edited by Crookedeye -- Rewording without anger.. ]

Reputation Comments on this post:

Tries to give credence to wrong info.

[Police Officer]

Originally Posted by CrookedEye

Just following orders and doing your job, officer? I believe officers should learn how to really protect and serve the community, rather than possibly tear apart families and careers for a little herb smoke.

Well whatever you were convicted of doing, it was a felony. You rolled the dice knowing that you are young and have a family to support. Don’t blame the Police or the judicial system because chose to break the law and now the consequences aren’t pleasant. The cops didn’t tear apart your family, you did.

The question shouldn’t be “Why are the Police ruining our lives by enforcing the laws.” I believe a more appropriate question should be "Why did you choose to risk your family’s welfare when you made the active and conscious decision to break the law and commit a felony."

Reputation Comments on this post:

rubbish post, open your mind little, the law should be there to protect people, not tear families apart

[sergei77]

Originally Posted by Police Officer

No, Mr. Brown has spent 16 years in prison for an armed robbery. Armed robbery being robbing someone with a deadly weapon. No one was hurt, huh? Ask someone whos been robbed at gunpoint if no one was hurt.

You obviously didn't bother reading the video link, the victim of the robbery was interviewed and said it was "no big deal", they even returned his wallet after taking the $2. At 17 you are not even old enough to vote in Texas, you have to be given a second chance for a moment of stupidity. You are not a career criminal at 17, you are not a career anything at 17. You are a child.

Originally Posted by Police Officer

Again, he is in prison for armed robbery, not possession of marijuana.

If he hadn't smoked Marijuana he wouldn't be in prison. Smoking Marijuana shouldn't be a crime, it certainly shouldn't make the difference between freedom and life in prison under any circumstances. It's shocking that anyone could think otherwise.

Originally Posted by Police Officer

On one more side note, it takes more than one violation of your probation/parole to be sent it. It usually takes several obvious and blatent violations. Dont believe me? Call or visit your local probation/parole office.

It didn't in this case, watch the video please:

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=2632423

It's beyond me how you could defend the indefensible.

Originally Posted by MrG

Un-fucking-believable. Shame on all those mad yanks and their militant right-wing bullshit.

Yes, the sad thing is the Europe seems to be following the American example despite all evidence pointing to the fact that their strategy isn't working, Crystal meth? Virtually impossible to find here in the UK. Yet Police Officer would have us believe that if we follow the US example we'll be better off. All the prohibition does is favour the cheap and dirty drugs in favour of the safer options.

Police Officer, did alcohol prohibition work in the US? If not, why do you believe prohibition of other equally or less harmful drugs will work?

Interestingly he makes no comment about Jonathan Magbie. Doesn't appear in his White House propaganda "report" either.

[CrookedEye]

Originally Posted by Police Officer

No, Mr. Brown has spent 16 years in prison for an armed robbery. Armed robbery being robbing someone with a deadly weapon. No one was hurt, huh? Ask someone whos been robbed at gunpoint if no one was hurt. I imagine they will tell you that although they werent physically hurt it was an emotional and psychological nightmare that didnt end when the robbery was over. I imagine they might also tell you that it is an experience that made them wake up at night in terror for months. But nevermind that, we must think of poor, poor, poor Mr. Brown.

Also, SWIM has several friends who were robbed at gunpoint, and/or knifepoint.. And, although it sucks to lose some money or an ipod; without being hurt, it's just a possession, and they are not traumatized by it.. Not much worse than a bully with a baseball bat takin your lunch money.. Sure it's shitty, but SWIM ain't gonna lose sleep over it, and in this case, SWIM would have probably given the kid his $2, without the teen producing a weapon.. SWIM surely doesn't think the kid should do over a decade in prison for either crime, although, armed robbery should normally be treated as a serious offense, in SWIM's opinion..

SWIM realises each case is different and that, if one wishes to have laws, they need to set a certain standard/scale for criminal actions to be judged upon.. But with that in mind, each case should be reviewed, and federal mandatory minimums should be eliminated, as it should be up to the jury of one's peers and the judge, as to what punishment fits which crime, rather than a set of sentencing guidelines that may or may not fit the crime, after all things considered..

[MrG]

Originally Posted by sergei77

Jonathan Magbie was a 27-year-old man who was paralyzed from the neck down as a result of a childhood accident. Although he had never been convicted of a criminal offense and although he required private nursing care for as much as 20 hours a day, Magbie was given a 10-day sentence in the D.C. jail in September 2004 by D.C. Superior Court Judge Judith E. Retchin for possession of a marijuana cigarette. He died in city custody four days later.

http://www.november.org/thewall/case.../magbie-j.html

Un-fucking-believable. Shame on all those mad yanks and their militant right-wing bullshit. But hey, it was just some young black guy right? Isn't that the way things go over there? I don't think us europeans really understand the insipid nature of institutionalised racism still evident in the states. Remember the documentaries about WWII yank soldiers who, in preparation for their arrival in the UK, had to be shown film footage of how the British didn't have segregation and that they, on the whole, treated black people relatively (not entirely) equally.

Tell me that story would have played out the same way if it had been some "All American" white boy.

But hey, it's ok to drink your drug - This bud's for you.

[London_Bloke]

Originally Posted by Nature Boy

I see more harm in a wholesale liquor supplier than a wholesale marijuana dealer.

Thank you!

[Nagognog2]

Sure. I know a case (personaly) of a young man who was approached and badgered incessently by undercover Feds. They wanted him to buy some marijuana. He didn't want to. And he had NO CRIMINAL RECORD at all. He had known a few people who were arrested for growing some pot and sent to jail for manufacturing a controlled substance - typical way to turn "growing some plants" into a major felony.

So these agents of stopping "Hurts them and the community" harrassed and harrassed this guy asking him to buy a huge amount of pot from them. He told them no and no and no! He didn't want it. He couldn't afford it. So forth. Finally they asked him if he'd buy 100 pounds of pot for $5! He said sure! BANG!! Out came the badges and the guns! Gotcha!

No money changed hands. No marijuana was ever seen. Though he fought and fought in Federal Court - he was convicted of Conspiracy to Violate Narcotics Laws and RICO. The Federals wanted at least 15 years. He was only (ONLY!!!) given 5 years to serve in a Federal Prison in Pennsylvania! He was told by the Feds he was the luckiest bastard in the world to ONLY GET 5 YEARS!

I wonder if he was tallied-up on the head-count made by the illiterate prick who wrote that tacky little government booklet? I doubt it.

[old hippie 56]

Did anyone watch the DPA head on The Colbert Report, it was good. Fits right in with this thread.

[Pinkavvy]

Yeah, that's a good question. Police Officer, why is it that you and your kind are so against patients using legal medical marijuana? you have to admit that marijuana is less harmful to the community, and the patient, then pain medications such as oxycontin.

[zera]

Police Officer, let me give you an analogy. Let's say that the government enacts a law that says everyone has to wear boxers and briefs will be outlawed. Now of course this law is completely unenforcible, a great majority of the population will continue to wear briefs because they like it. A few unlucky people will get arrested for wearing briefs, and even though the laws are harsh, the vasr majority of them will receive leniency from the judge and prosecutors and get something like a fine and rehab. Great, sounds like the law against briefs isn't so bad afterall.

Wrong. You see here in America our society was built to be based around a rule of law. There's a very important concept called Habeas Corpus, which originated with the Magna Carta in England and existed so the King could not just randomly throw his opponents in jail. He had to go before a judge and produce evidence that they committed some existing crime. This is the most important development in law since, well forever. Instead of everyone becoming dependent on the will of the King, our society (our inherited English society) became a rule of laws, where disputes were settled by laws and impartial judges, not by autocratic officials with unlimited power.

But you see in modern America these protections are being eroded. The American state has grown so much, that everyone's a criminal. Who doesn't smoke pot occasionally, (until the recent strike down of the sodomy statutes) have oral sex, give their 18 year old kid some wine at dinner, have a few downloaded songs on their computer, have a few eBay or other business transactions which aren't reported to the IRS, or maybe buy his pharmeceuticals overseas because he can't afford the American price.

We all laugh at the laws against these things, because everyone does them and if we got caught, big deal, they'll come down easy on us because everyone does it. Even though the law has some pretty horrible punishments (check the FBI warning at the beggining of any movie), you're sure you'll just get a slap on the wrist, everyone does.

But don't you see the problem here, we've reverted back from the rule of law, to the rule of men. We can no longer fall back on the law and habeas corpus to protect us, because we're all criminals. If the government decides arbitrarily that they don't like someone, they can ruin his life. Because of all of these ridiculous laws every American is a criminal, meaning that it's back like it is in 1100, to stay out of jail we need to keep on the good side of the King (or the DA/mayor/police chief). This is the real travesty, I don't care if hardly anyone's in jail for marijuana, it's laws like that that are responsible for the erosion of the very foundation of a free society.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	He'll run a bulldozer through it. But very well done! LOL!
	Great post and great points..
	hit the nail on the head

[Each Hit]

the government is supposed to be of the people, by the people, and for the people. considering we have the highest prison population in the world, i can't help but wonder if the government is for us or against us. and at what point do the people fight back?