opiate Research Chemicals?

[blinkKDX]

Swim is wondering why there have not been any opiate analogs and such made in RC form.

Could there be a way to make a RC that could convert to a chemical like hydro or oxy IN THE BODY much like prohormones did for bodybuilders...

EX of a prohormone. 4AD converts to testosterone in the body at around 15%... (low but a once legal form to do "steroids")

[vantranist]

SWIM sees many many RC'S that mimic other pychedelic drugs quite well and somtimes better. However he hassent seen or heard of Rc's that are opiate like.

SWIM would like to know why this is? It would be great to get a nice heroin like substance legaly and usally with Rc's much more purer and affordable.

Imagine buying somthing heroin like with a dose near Fentanyl for only $200 a gram.

Why are most RC'S Pychedelic?

[Abrad]

Offering powerful opiods on the grey market would have disastrous consequences for the RC community IMO. It would almost certainly lead to a massive worldwide crackdown.

[Zaprenz]

Originally Posted by vantranist

Why are most RC'S Pychedelic?

How many people have looked back on a 2c-b experience thinking it changed their life in a positive way?

Even if it didn't and was devastating it would represent one dose with negative problems. Flashbacks would be possible but still the length of time is limited.

Now how many people look back on heroin and think it changed their life in a positive way?

People can be unwillingly hooked on heroin, depressed and unhappy wasting not one dose but days, months of their lifes to it.

Both drugs can have good or bad effects but someone doesn't continue to take 2c-b just to stop horrible withdrawal problems. Heroin has a history of being used (by maybe only a few people but still) as a way on controlling people. You could mess someones life up by for example giving them 2c-b unwittingly but I'm sure you could do much worse by getting them hooked onto a powerful opiate against their will. These are extreme examples but if a chemical is sold someone somewhere is going to do it.


SWIM would admit he has a hypocritcal type view of things in that SWIM would like to be able to buy any drug SWIM wanted but would not want the responsibility of selling such drugs to the public.

SWIM would certainly not want to be responsible for selling a heroin RC though.

[psyche]

This is only a shot in the dark since I'm not familiar with chemistry, but it might be that it is a lot easier to come up with new ligands by modulating an tryptamine-skeleton or indole-nucleus than some more complicated chemical structure of opioids. In a manner that they are psychoactive, ofcourse. Serotonine receptors might be evolutionally less important and thus less specific, accepting more varying molecules to bind. But that's just my random theories. Could anyone come up with a more educated answer?

Edit: Well, there are many synthetic opioids, but they are not regarded as RC's. So the reason might be this simple: opiates have a lot of utility in pharmaceutical industry unlike psychedelics. Well, or opiates are used in medicine a lot more than psychedelics.

[Alfa]

The results of designing and testing such materials are more often desastrous than not.

[snapper]

Products that easily kill do not stay on the market long. There is nonetheless at least one opiate "research chemical". This is 7ACOmitragynine, which does not occur in significant if any amounts in kratom, but rather is an intermediate in the synthesis of 7HOmitragynine, It proved easier to synthesize than extract since it is difficult to separate from mitragynine. It is similar to and a prodrug of 7HO mitragynine, but nevertheless has its own activity. Not much difference with mitragynine an 7HOmitragynine, but a little.
However kratom alkaloids have something that other "research chemical" opiates do not have. It has a very close similarity to a narcotic used for thousands (?) of years with addiction and hard work as the main health impacts. It has also caused no real harm to anyone except a bellyache so far. Not very risky, SWIM thinks. Anything else would be trouble for sure, but still it qualifies as a research chemical.

[Zaprenz]

^Its also VERY expensive.

This stops a large degree of the negative problems. It's too expensive to get addicted (People can afford kratom but not the RC alkaloids), Its also so expensive that casual users will want to make good use of mitragynine alkaloids having paid $$$ for them. This will mean they will concentrate on dose, setting etc.

Although kratom as mentioned has a long history of safe use, I think if it was considerably cheaper to produce or was being sold considerably cheaper (especially the pure alkaloids) governments would have taken aim a lot sooner.

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by Zaprenz

Although kratom as mentioned has a long history of safe use, I think if it was considerably cheaper to produce or was being sold considerably cheaper (especially the pure alkaloids) governments would have taken aim a lot sooner.

Possibly -- it's a very interesting topic to ponder. It could be that kratom's propensity to actually give people the desire to work will help forestall its demonization and final scheduling -- imagine, an 'opiate for the masses' that not only soothes but makes people want to produce more for The Man! Somebody high up the chain may want to do some serious research before they drop the whole shebang into Schedule I.

Also, kratom has not gotten as popular as SWIM expected... SWIM thinks its exposure is still fairly limited, and target audience not very large. It's expensive, difficult to prepare, tastes terrible, can't be smoked or injected, isn't much of a social lubricant and doesn't really produce enough euphoria to interest hardcore opiate users (aside from its utility as a withdrawal aid). I doubt it's on a fast track to scheduling, despite being on the DEA's "Drugs & Chemicals of Concern" list... could be wrong tho.

P.S. it's possible the suppliers (there are only a couple, you know) may be artificially inflating kratom prices... if so, it's a very wise thing to do and I hope they continue.

[snapper]

Couldn't the same argument be made for meth ? Then again, cleaning the house 10 x and picking every last hair out of the carpet is not really working for the man...

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by snapper

Couldn't the same argument be made for meth ? Then again, cleaning the house 10 x and picking every last hair out of the carpet is not really working for the man...

Nor does Meth have a relaxing/pacifying influence... that was part of what I was thinking, you know, a sort of "daily drug" that could be an even better caffeine substitute for some segments of the populace. It's possible that business/industry could stand to benefit bigtime... don't really know for sure of course.

And of course I'm not personally in favor of doping the populace to make them work harder -- just wondering if anyone has thought of this idea, and if so whether it would hold off the DEA's dogs for awhile while they studied kratom's effects.

[snapper]

The populace is already doped - doped with caffeine, SSRIs, ADD drugs, and alcohol. Who needs a plant material that cannot be grown in most of the US or patented to muscle in on those gold-mines? That would just cut into profits. Also, happy people don't end up being as productive. Get people desperate and poor and they'll work 3 jobs and be grateful for the peanuts thrown at them in return.
I'm just waiting for kratom to become labeled as the next commodity used to support terrorists. Most of it comes from Bali and most Balinese are muslims. there is certainly an extremist presence in Bali (remember the nightclub bomb ?). One day, all the upstanding americans ordering kratom will be arrested for funding terrorism. They will have their assets seized by the state to pay for more M16s, depleted uranium and body armor and then they can all do roadside trash picking for 3cents an hour and go home to get buttraped in their cells afterwards...
Gee, SWIM is a wee pessimistic tonight...better do some more kratom and mellow out...

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by snapper

The populace is already doped - doped with caffeine, SSRIs, ADD drugs, and alcohol. Who needs a plant material that cannot be grown in most of the US or patented to muscle in on those gold-mines? That would just cut into profits. Also, happy people don't end up being as productive. Get people desperate and poor and they'll work 3 jobs and be grateful for the peanuts thrown at them in return.
I'm just waiting for kratom to become labeled as the next commodity used to support terrorists. Most of it comes from Bali and most Balinese are muslims. there is certainly an extremist presence in Bali (remember the nightclub bomb ?). One day, all the upstanding americans ordering kratom will be arrested for funding terrorism. They will have their assets seized by the state to pay for more M16s, depleted uranium and body armor and then they can all do roadside trash picking for 3cents an hour and go home to get buttraped in their cells afterwards...
Gee, SWIM is a wee pessimistic tonight...better do some more kratom and mellow out...

LOL... c'mon, so my idea isn't all that realistic, but neither is that one. At worst they will just schedule it, and that will be that.

Not exactly a happy ending either, but ATM I really like how kratom's popularity just isn't taking off in any significant way. The opiate-quitters have already filled up the queue, and that seems about it in terms of gold rushes. If we're lucky, the DEA will get bored with kratom and basically stop watching it.

[snapper]

so far so good

[fastandbulbous]

There are loads of potential heroin-like research compounds, but I don't think it's something that most people would want to touch with a 10 foot barge pole. I've got loads of SAR data, but the thought that by making it public I might be responsible for lots of opiate addicts & potential deaths is good enough for it to be a closed book as far as I'm concerned

[fryingsquirrel]

In addition to the OD and addiction potential, a few points-

Opiates ARE available online, in the form of prescription drugs.

Opiate users are generally satisfied with heroin, dilaudid, oxycontin ect, no real demand to try new things.

No one was kind enough to write Oihkal.

[snapper]

Maybe the DEA will write Oinkhal one day (haha).
The other thing about opiates is that they all come down to the same effect. They do not have the variation that hallucinogenics and empathogenics have. However, there are those 'hallucinogenic' opiates SWIM has heard about, but that'[s probably out of the realm of mu receptors..

[Nagognog2]

Hallucinogenic synthetics have hit the market already in the form of pentazocine - Talwin. And no doubt stronger varients are possible. Talwin has euphoria similar to morphine. But larger doses than medically prescribed will cause true, graphic hallucinations indistinguishable from reality - not that one cares....doooood.....wow......who let the horse in here....?

[Zaprenz]

If an RC chemical company decided to start selling one of the non-controlled fentanyl analogues (or similar type chemical) and was able to satisfy high demand at low prices (this excludes traditional (REAL)research chem supplies which will artificially inflate their prices) then I would imagine governments would go at them with everything they had.

If a government REALLY wants a company shut down its usually quite easy to find SOMETHING they are doing incorrectly. If its not labelling their product according to COSH, filling in their tax forms, answering the telephone politely etc it doesn't really matter - they will get them on it.

So no director of such a company would EVER want to risk this morally or financially (one or the other).

I could be mistaken though, I still find it amazing people have the confidence to sell chemicals like MDPV without looking over their shoulder constantly (especially as a result of what happened in the US with Operation Webtryp). I guess it comes down to money and whether the risk is worth it.

[Mona Lisa]

Originally Posted by Zaprenz

If an RC chemical company decided to start selling one of the non-controlled fentanyl analogues (or similar type chemical) and was able to satisfy high demand at low prices (this excludes traditional (REAL)research chem supplies which will artificially inflate their prices) then I would imagine governments would go at them with everything they had.

If a government REALLY wants a company shut down its usually quite easy to find SOMETHING they are doing incorrectly. If its not labelling their product according to COSH, filling in their tax forms, answering the telephone politely etc it doesn't really matter - they will get them on it.

So no director of such a company would EVER want to risk this morally or financially (one or the other).

I could be mistaken though, I still find it amazing people have the confidence to sell chemicals like MDPV without looking over their shoulder constantly (especially as a result of what happened in the US with Operation Webtryp). I guess it comes down to money and whether the risk is worth it.

Could well be why a certain European vendor decided to close shop ^^^

[Zaprenz]

^You make a very good point!

[snapper]

Apparently, there are many more than talwin, some of which do not behave like tropanes. However, SWIM knows nothing of this firsthand and has not done a literature search. SWIM is plenty busy with what is already out there on the rare occasions SWIM has even been able to use anything distracting (damn work !).

[prospero]

It depends what you call 'opiate-like' - there are already plenty of such drugs available perfectly legally. Personally if I wanted a legal 'opiate-like' drug I'd pop down my local chemist, say I've got a bad cough, and get a load of codeine. It's not just 'opiate-like' it's actually one of the active ingredients in opium.

[enquirewithin]

^Codeine IS an opiate, but a poor one to get high on! (God help any junke who tries to IV it!

[daeron]

although a lot of condemn fentanyl RC analogues, i fully support such a research...the problem is in the way theyre distributed. point is to keep the true info out there, and not call them heroin on the street or sell them in powder form.

i remember that there was a really prolific research group on the med faculty back home that managed to synthesize a plethora of analogues, most of which were active in rats and/or humans, however this kind of research can be too tempting for the ones with certain..ahem needs. the epilogue was that one team member died from "toxic poisoning at work" (ie tolerance went too high, and she ODed). shame really.

the patents/papers are out there still...if anyone is really interested in this drop me a pm and ill try to dig them up.