SWIM has decided to quit stimulants -- help appreciated

[Forthesevenlakes]

Good to hear that SWINicaines kick is going well. Stopping a stimulant habit is something SWIM has not really experienced...he's had some periods of heavy cocaine and ephedrine use (not simultaneously) but oddly, felt little to no craving for them when he stopped. He simply didn't think about them. SWIM feels that personalities with a predisposition towards addiction usually swing one of two ways: uppers or downers, based on personality and/or brain chemistry. Perhaps there are several ways by which one can be predisposed to addiction, and this determines the drug of choice, e.g. alcoholics often show a blunted cortisol response to stressors, so increased GABA inhibition via alcohol or benzo consumption may help to offset this. SWIM has no hard evidence for the next statement, but he believes (and one could probably test this given the right equipment and funding) that perhaps those driven towards uppers show lower baseline levels of dopamine, even before abuse began, and similarly, people driven to opiates may have lower endorphin/endogenous opioid levels.

Is SWIY experiencing much fatigue and exhaustion or does the kratom and wellbutrin help offset this? It would be interesting if kratom, given its complex pharmacology, could help with the lack of energy often felt in stimulant withdrawal.

Reputation Comments on this post:

summarized nicely

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by Forthesevenlakes

Good to hear that SWINicaines kick is going well. Stopping a stimulant habit is something SWIM has not really experienced...he's had some periods of heavy cocaine and ephedrine use (not simultaneously) but oddly, felt little to no craving for them when he stopped. He simply didn't think about them.

SWIM has experienced the same thing... it's typically "out of sight, out of mind" with stimulants. If he doesn't think about them, it's just no big deal.

Originally Posted by Forthesevenlakes

SWIM has no hard evidence for the next statement, but he believes (and one could probably test this given the right equipment and funding) that perhaps those driven towards uppers show lower baseline levels of dopamine, even before abuse began, and similarly, people driven to opiates may have lower endorphin/endogenous opioid levels.

This may be true in some cases, but SWIM doesn't buy it as a general-case thing. ISO people get addicted to a substance because (A) it feels good, and (B) they use it both long and heavily enough to develop a mental and/or physical dependence. SWIM has kicked opiates (ostensibly downers) as well as stims... he likes going up or down, as long as it's enjoyable.

Originally Posted by Forthesevenlakes

Is SWIY experiencing much fatigue and exhaustion or does the kratom and wellbutrin help offset this? It would be interesting if kratom, given its complex pharmacology, could help with the lack of energy often felt in stimulant withdrawal.

They definitely help offset any potential fatigue. Kratom is usually stimulating (even edgy sometimes), and of course so is bupropion. I'm not sure SWIM would be having a major fatigue problem without them tho, at least after the first few days. He's never noticed a protracted withdrawal syndrome with stimulants, altho he's never used them continuously for long periods (e.g. more than a year).

[Forthesevenlakes]

Originally Posted by Nicaine

This may be true in some cases, but SWIM doesn't buy it as a general-case thing. ISO people get addicted to a substance because (A) it feels good, and (B) they use it both long and heavily enough to develop a mental and/or physical dependence. SWIM has kicked opiates (ostensibly downers) as well as stims... he likes going up or down, as long as it's enjoyable.

SWIY is probably right about it not being a general-case thing. Its an idea SWIM was kicking around tonight, but in general if there is a biological predisposition towards addiction for most people, it may simply be that some folks can create pathways for craving, tolerance, addictive behaviors, etc. more easily than others. In some cases SWIM's theory might be true (and he'd love to test it, one day), but SWIY's explanation is simpler, and SWIM feels, more elegant. Most people get addicted to drugs because they feel good, and many addictive drugs are the kinds of drugs one can use in many situations. SWIM's proposition, then, might only hold in a select minority of cases.

SWIM is glad that SWIY is sticking to his guns, he's right in that stimulant withdrawal doesnt seem to be that protracted for most people, the mental component might be difficult to abandon for some (SWIM wonders if cognitive-behavioral therapy might be effective to get rid of some of the cravings and addictive mindsets, for those who are willing to do such therapy). The physical fatigue, thankfully, seems to only last a few days at the worst. Even so, staying clean for that long can be a very difficult thing, and SWIM definitely congratulates SWIY for riding this out.

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by Forthesevenlakes

SWIM is glad that SWIY is sticking to his guns, he's right in that stimulant withdrawal doesnt seem to be that protracted for most people, the mental component might be difficult to abandon for some (SWIM wonders if cognitive-behavioral therapy might be effective to get rid of some of the cravings and addictive mindsets, for those who are willing to do such therapy). The physical fatigue, thankfully, seems to only last a few days at the worst. Even so, staying clean for that long can be a very difficult thing, and SWIM definitely congratulates SWIY for riding this out.

SWIM sends his thanks, although unfortunately he's not sticking to his guns... he ordered some MDPV (only 100mg) a few hours ago. He plans on using it, then again going at least two weeks before buying more. Depending on how it feels to use the stuff, he may change his plans & decide to quit... the last few runs weren't much fun and the comedowns were sheer hell, but SWIM apparently wants to test that a bit more. He did report a bit of a regretful sinking feeling after ordering, but what's done is done.

[~lostgurl~]

Originally Posted by Forthesevenlakes

SWIM feels that personalities with a predisposition towards addiction usually swing one of two ways: uppers or downers, based on personality and/or brain chemistry. Perhaps there are several ways by which one can be predisposed to addiction, and this determines the drug of choice, e.g. alcoholics often show a blunted cortisol response to stressors, so increased GABA inhibition via alcohol or benzo consumption may help to offset this. SWIM has no hard evidence for the next statement, but he believes (and one could probably test this given the right equipment and funding) that perhaps those driven towards uppers show lower baseline levels of dopamine, even before abuse began, and similarly, people driven to opiates may have lower endorphin/endogenous opioid levels.

SWIM used to think something along these lines, after a 2 year addiction to heroin SWIM thought she could still take other drugs. Ecstasy every weekend was ok, even meth every weekend was ok for awhile. But daily use of meth proved to be just as psychologically addictive as heroin for SWIM. She didnt care if she was going up or down as long as she felt good. Eventually the bad outweighs the good with most drugs SWIM has used or abused, this alone is a driving force for SWIM's decrease in cravings, though time sure helps too.

[Micklemouse]

SWiN could always cancel the order, no? Then cut up & throw away his credit cards perhaps? Delete addresses from his address book, cancel any Paypal or whatever accounts? Avoid the Sources Forum?

A simplistic way to think I know, but similar to the advice given to anyone else trying to kick. It takes time, & sometimes a few goes round before it happens. It's all too easy to think, after even short amount of time has gone by, that it'll be o.k. to go back in, but SWiN has to keep in mind those comedowns - without a sustained period of abstinence the chances of them just getting worse are high. It took A Certain Mouse years of abstinence, some serious willpower & people around him who knew they could not offer any, before he could handle stims again after he lost the plot on them. It also took him losing the plot to actually kick them in the first place. Something everyone here wants to avoid in this case I think.

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by Micklemouse

SWiN could always cancel the order, no? Then cut up & throw away his credit cards perhaps? Delete addresses from his address book, cancel any Paypal or whatever accounts? Avoid the Sources Forum?

LOL... it's all pointless. Either SWIM is firmly decided on quitting, or he isn't. If he is, he will stay quit no matter what the temptation. If not, he'll use again no matter what the safeguards. If he's learned anything over the years, that much is crystal clear.

Anyway, it's not that big a deal... many would say that it's all part of the 'quit process', i.e. figuring out whether he wants to stay off stimulants. Whether this is true or not, SWIM's not entirely sure... nobody sees themselves with an entirely clear eye.

SWiN has to keep in mind those comedowns - without a sustained period of abstinence the chances of them just getting worse are high.

If that's true, the motivation to stay quit will be all the higher next time (provided SWIM survives, which is never an absolute guarantee when strong drugs + binges are involved).

SWIM thinks just one really miserable comedown and he'll toss out whatever's left, particularly if the high is relatively lame as well. A couple weeks away is enough for *some* bounceback, so if SWIM doesn't immediately go crazy & roll for 5 days or something he should be OK.

Originally Posted by ~lostgurl~

Eventually the bad outweighs the good with most drugs SWIM has used or abused, this alone is a driving force for SWIM's decrease in cravings, though time sure helps too.

Absolutely, but the trouble is that after some time away things mostly go back to the way they were, at least for awhile. In SWIM's case, this has encouraged a binge pattern over the years (specifically with coke) where he'll use ridiculous amounts for a few months, stay away for a year or so, then jump back in again.

The good news is that SWIM appears to be done with coke... the bad news is he just substituted MDPV and propylhexedrine, both of which are legal and much cheaper. Coke's expense was always a major factor in ending SWIM's past binges, so the usual pattern has been broken with the recent cheap substitutes.

Originally Posted by Micklemouse

It took A Certain Mouse years of abstinence, some serious willpower & people around him who knew they could not offer any, before he could handle stims again after he lost the plot on them. It also took him losing the plot to actually kick them in the first place. Something everyone here wants to avoid in this case I think.

In the case of MDPV, ISO the likeliest 'bottom' a person would hit from over-use would be psychosis... not pretty, it would certainly be convincing in terms of quitting for good. SWIM really can't physically or emotionally afford to continue using the stuff too heavily, and he's still dreaming of controlled use. *Sigh*.

[snapper]

SWIM thinks addicts are addicts, and that everyone has preferences. SWIM has been equally addicted to stimulants, sedatives and narcotics. The only drugs SWIM does not like and has not found habituating (so far) are alcohol and dissociatives. SWIM has also quit every habit eventually except for a few SWIM chooses to maintain right now, though as SWIM gets older, SWIM finds it easier to leave new habits behind.
The first time SWIM quit tobacco, it lasted 4 years, then SWIM started again, only to quit again a short time later in disgust. Then one last taste and that was it. SWIM does not like cigarettes at all anymore and is not at all tempted by them. SWIM feels the same way about speed, narcotics and cocaine. It seems the negative reinforcement eventually settled in.
However, SWIM has never been without some kind of habit, and currently has defered this to weed and kratom. SWIM is not concerned about stopping either. SWIM simply accepts the fact that SWIM needs a crutch for whatever reason, and is judicious with SWIM's choices.
SWINicaine. Just take the little baggie and put it somewhere and forget about it. Overall, MDPV is indeed pretty lame aside from helping inhibit sleep. It doesn't even seem to enhance thinking much like other stimulants, making it a good motivator for only mindless tasks.. Sure it is fun to play around with, but of no real long term benefit. good luck and don't get discouraged if SWIY uses it. Just stop again.

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by snapper

SWINicaine. Just take the little baggie and put it somewhere and forget about it. Overall, MDPV is indeed pretty lame aside from helping inhibit sleep. It doesn't even seem to enhance thinking much like other stimulants, making it a good motivator for only mindless tasks.. Sure it is fun to play around with, but of no real long term benefit. good luck and don't get discouraged if SWIY uses it. Just stop again.

SWIM appreciates the suggestion, and has considered that option (i.e. just putting the baggie in a drawer, at least for awhile). He may do that, or he might just dissolve it in water immediately & use some. The second option seems more likely given his past history, but you never know. "Fun to play around with, no real long term benefit" applies to any/all substances ISO, except maybe targeted ones like antibiotics and cardiac drugs.

P.S. MDPV does enhance sex (one of those mindless tasks, LOL). This is in fact the primary reason why he's continued using it. Unfortunately there's no "natural" substitute for a dopamine-boosted sex drive, unless maybe SWIM tried some other/weaker stuff like Cabergoline or Levodopa. It also provide some modest increase in motivation as well, but (as you hinted at) not enough to offset the loss of sleep and proper nutrition.

Definitely lame, but also cheap and legal (very tough to beat that combo)...

[Nicaine]

SWIM won't be receiving his order until early next week... by that time it will have been more than two weeks since last use (around 18 days). Long enough for SWIM to believe he'll have at least some control back in terms of limited redosing and avoiding long binges.

If he then waits another 2 weeks for the next order once this one is used up, he'll be well on the way to establishing a healthier usage pattern. SWIM is crossing his fingers anyway.