SWIM has decided to quit stimulants -- help appreciated

[Nicaine]

SWIM recently picked up another 250mg of MDPV (stimulant research chemical, dopamine reuptake inhibitor). Before receiving it he had 4 or 5 days free of stimulants, and it was pretty nice.

SWIM received the MDPV recently and started using it without caring to monitor his usage at all. Here's the deal: He does not know how long he's been rolling.... could be 12 hours, could be 24, could be 3 days. He doesn't know how much he's used, aside from it being less than 250mg. He does not know why the clock says 7:45 PM, when it should be around that time in the AM (?). He is browsing the web in a truly obsessive/compulsive manner (gallon jug of water + piss bottle + food + benzos + MDPV next to the computer, no breaks for 6-12 hour stretches).

He has not eaten anything nutritious since starting this roll (just simple carbs & fluids). He's not keeping track of his prescription med usage, other than "take some occasionally." He's not answering phone calls, or leaving his bedroom other than to occasionally grab something in the kitchen and then run back to the PC. He's not talking to anyone, and he's been angrily chasing his cat away when it gets near and meows/distracts from obsessive activities. He's overstimulated with a rapid/irregular pulse, red/sweaty face, tiredness when standing up, and aching lower back & neck muscles.

SWIM realizes now he has to quit stimulants or suffer a complete disconnect from reality and everyday life (and that's probably being optimistic). His plan is to use the rest of what he has (not much choice, psychologically speaking) and then not reorder anything again, period. He may use kratom a max of once/day for a while (not beyond a few weeks) to help with his moods and the feeling of wanting to be high on something. After he's done with the kratom, his plan is to go on Wellbutrin as an antidepressant and badly-needed motivator in life. He's got the script, just needs to bring it to the pharmacy and pick up his supply.

SWIM would appreciate any/all help in sticking to his plan... he'd also be grateful for any comments and suggestions related to this matter. PM's preferred for the sake of privacy... he's already embarrassed to be confessing this stuff, and asks that people not "rub it in" or publicly tear apart his recent bad behavior and lack of control.

[Nicaine]

SWIM had something that was supposed to come in the mail today, and it didn't. He was really disappointed at first, then he realized that the longer it takes to come in, the better... maybe it'll never come in. That would be ideal.

SWIM's self control seems to have improved lately, around the time he realized this couldn't go on and he had to take the bull by the horns. He's not using that as an excuse either, it really has. He prepped some propylhexedrine this afternoon, remembered he has to wake up at a reasonable time tomorrow morning, and put the stuff away for another day. No problems leaving it alone, despite having just been disappointed by non-receipt of another substance AND knowing exactly how nice the propylhexedrine high would feel. ISO, the fact he was able to leave it alone is a very good sign.

[blinkKDX]

hey nicaine,

i think the best thing to do is get out and exercise... its going to take your mind off this junk and afterwords you can feed your body what it needs and it will use the nutriuents better. running is the best, and weight lifting is second best. running is going to give you the best endorphine feel good effect, but this only comes after a couple of weeks of good running. swim used to be a d1 distance runner...so this is the best advice swim can give.

[Forthesevenlakes]

exercise is an important part of recovery from many substances, although it must be kept in mind that due to certain physical constraints, not everyone recovering from use can really exercise as much as they would like. for this type of case, SWIM reccomends perhaps consulting a physical therapist if possible, or figuring out ways to get exercise that is outside the standard realm of running or other aerobic activities. perhaps weights or exercise machines if one's physical condition allows it.

SWIM thinks that meditation, tai chi, or other activities that help to create a sense of calmness or peace could also help greatly with beating this kind of addiction.

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by blinkKDX

hey nicaine,

i think the best thing to do is get out and exercise... its going to take your mind off this junk and afterwords you can feed your body what it needs and it will use the nutriuents better. running is the best, and weight lifting is second best. running is going to give you the best endorphine feel good effect, but this only comes after a couple of weeks of good running.

Thanks for the suggestion... not a bad one when it comes to quitting something or chipping away at depression, but SWIM has given up on the supposed high feeling from exercise. Even after several MONTHS it's still nothing but a miserable chore that SWIM prefers to avoid like the plague, nor does SWIM feel good afterward (just tired and vaguely ill, always worse to some degree than before he started).

Maybe exercise is a good drug for some people, definitely not for SWIM. It's a good distraction, that's all. When it comes to feeling physically exhausted vs. depressed, the exhaustion wins... so exercise does have its place. But as far as "feeling good" afterward, that must be a joke somebody came up with under the influence of a very potent psychedelic.

[Nicaine]

SWIM used propylhexedrine last night (was up all night + all day today), but chances are good he's gonna start on bupropion (Wellbutrin) tomorrow -- he just picked up a month's supply from the local pharmacy. That would mean forced curtailing of stimulant use, to avoid issues with seizures & such... in other words, it would limit SWIM to occasional use in much smaller quantities, possibly even no use at all depending on how the bupropion interacts with other subbies.

That's provided he sticks with the bupropion, but he's probably at least gonna give it a shot. This has been a long time coming, and SWIM wants to see if he can achieve decent mood levels, motivation & sex drive on it. If not, he may go back to stims at least part-time... but SWIM will cross that bridge if/when he comes to it.

[Benzeneringz]

I don't really understand. What stimulant is giving you problems? I know you talked a lot about MDPV (or 1-(3,4-methylenedioxy-phenyl)-2-pyrrolidin-1-yl-pentan-1-one), but it seems like you're feeling bad from coming down off of a roll. There's no possible way you could use this stuff on a regular basis since it's not readily available. You also mentioned propylhexedrine; this could become a minor problem with daily use. Daily use of propylhexedrine is unlikely, however, since severe tolerance would up the cost of a 'roll' or a 'speed' to too much money, plus ingesting cotton in a chronic manner means serious health consequences. I'm just curious because I'd like to offer some helpful advice. Are you addicted to a stimulant?

Also, don't expect too much at all from bupropion. You said it was a 'much-needed motivator' or something along those lines; I'll be the first to tell you, no it's not. It has never caused any 'speed-like' effects in myself (as I was prescribed to it for several months, 300 mgs/day) and only caused significant unpleasant physical side-effects. Bupropion is certainly no savior from a stimulant habit. The drug you're describing isn't bupropion; rather, it sounds like it might be modafinil (Provigil). I've never been prescribed to modafinil nor have I taken it illicitly, but from what I've read it sounds like it might be more of a "non-hedonic motivator" than bupropion.

[rxbandit]

the major thing that fuels swims binges is amphs will keep you starved, dehydrated and with little sleep. your stomach will reject food or no longer feel hungry but it is essential to force down as much food as you can, protein shakes and multivitamins help. from not sleeping your melatonin levels will be incredibly out of wack so some melatonin supplements have always helped my recovery. nothing will kill the craving completely but SWIM would get lots of calories down, lots of water, melatonin, maybe some tyrosine. then swim would take a benzo to knock him out and let his body recover... swiys body should recover but the resources your body needs are the most essential.

as for the wellbutrin, that actually helped swim kick his morphine habit as it effects receptors that are useful for things other then depression... and provigil swims taken perscribed and it keeps you awake but not stimulated, its a strange almost unpleasant feeling.

good luck.

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by Benzeneringz

I don't really understand. What stimulant is giving you problems? I know you talked a lot about MDPV (or 1-(3,4-methylenedioxy-phenyl)-2-pyrrolidin-1-yl-pentan-1-one), but it seems like you're feeling bad from coming down off of a roll. There's no possible way you could use this stuff on a regular basis since it's not readily available. You also mentioned propylhexedrine; this could become a minor problem with daily use. Daily use of propylhexedrine is unlikely, however, since severe tolerance would up the cost of a 'roll' or a 'speed' to too much money, plus ingesting cotton in a chronic manner means serious health consequences. I'm just curious because I'd like to offer some helpful advice. Are you addicted to a stimulant?

First off -- it's not ME who's addicted to anything. Are you accusing ME of using drugs, or are you just too stupid to read the forum rules? I don't do drugs.

In SWIM's case -- it's a psychological addiction to all stimulants, particularly anything that tweaks dopamine. They all have a fair amount of cross-tolerance too, SWIM has noted.

P.S. SWIM started on bupropion today, although he doesn't know if he'll be continuing long. The side effects are already very unpleasant... anger, agitation, impatience, restlessness, sweating. This stuff is really crap .

Originally Posted by Benzeneringz

Also, don't expect too much at all from bupropion. You said it was a 'much-needed motivator' or something along those lines; I'll be the first to tell you, no it's not.

I said it COULD BE. The fact it wasn't "for you" doesn't mean a damn thing... it's a stimulant antidepressant that affects dopamine and norepinephrine, and as such might have the ability to improve motivation. Too bad you don't seem to understand how different drugs affect people differently, nor are you paying attention to the forum rules.

Don't reply to any more of my posts or I'll give you negative rep points.

[Cuberun]

As swim's sex drive increases his desire for methylone also increases. It seems like he's made a ultimate connection between sex and methylone. He wants to obtain methylone purely for sexual gratification. Which in turn is some sort of semi-addiction. Drugs you can quit... sort of, but sex? That's something way deep within.

SWIM doesn't have any problems getting along vanilla style but it's nowhere near the err.. delights of methylone flavor. One day methylone will probably become somewhat inaccessible but swim will always have tingly memories of the m1 times.

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by Cuberun

As swim's sex drive increases his desire for methylone also increases. It seems like he's made a ultimate connection between sex and methylone. He wants to obtain methylone purely for sexual gratification. Which in turn is some sort of semi-addiction. Drugs you can quit... sort of, but sex? That's something way deep within.

SWIM knows what SWIY's talking about... he's made a similar connection between sex (i.e. his sex drive) & stimulants in general. Even if he can perform while not high, he usually doesn't want to. At best, it's extremely boring compared to even a casual experience while on dopamine-tweaking subbies.

Also, the only time SWIM seems motivated is when he's high on stimulants. This presents a serious problem, in that 'recovery' is possible but SWIM is likely to just sit around doing nothing most of the time... when he's high, he works on his websites, re-learning HTML + programming and is even starting a business... but there's just no interest unless he's high. He doesn't know how he's gonna deal with this issue yet, and is hoping Wellbutrin can pull him out of that hole.

P.S. SWIM suffered a setback of sorts today, and now isn't sure what's going to happen re: stimulants. If he were serious, he would deal with the problem in the harshest possible way (i.e. immediately toss the offending subbies down the drain) but the two issues he mentioned above keep dogging him and so he won't do it... yet, anyway. Crap .

[snapper]

That amotivation lasts a long time. It took SWIM YEARS to get any ambition. SWIM thinks wellbutrin will help, and if it were around, GHB, which in the rebound phase gives a nice boost of dopamine. SWIM has always felt that that aspect was as important as the sedative/euphoric/anxiolytic aspects earier in the dose. There's always xyrem if you have an understanding MD. However, GHB is easily abused without some self discipline (though once one gets a taste of a bad rebound after a binge, the threat is a good deterrent to continual use..).
SWIM found having lots of work committments helped to squeeze some motivation out, but SWIM could not have managed an independent enterprise at that time. Work is a good way to become distracted from these depleted states. It just takes time for SWIY brain to get back to normal - stimulants extract a high price which is eventually collected with interest. Enough meth use and the motivation, the highs in life just don't come back. Strong stimulants hijack the pleasure and motivational centers of SWIour minds and raise the bar by overloading them in a way normal neurochemistry cannot. The bar drops very slowly after that. Only the tincture of time and abstinence will help SWIY get back to normal.

[Nicaine]

SWIM is *so* motivated on stimulants... focused, concentrated... he recently started a business, and his web design skills are almost up there to saleable levels again. Without stims, SWIM is pitifully useless. He sits in front of the TV all day and watches Maury, Jerry Springer & Little House on the Prairie and hates himself for it . There MUST be some solution to this problem, i.e. finding motivation without physically stressing himself to death binging on stimulants. Maybe SWIM could see if he could get diagnosed as having ADHD (altho he doesn't think he has it) and get on Adderall or something.

[Myzel]

Swim remembers dreams along time ago when he tried to think of every and any way to have stims always on hand. It has been around 2 years since swim he has had those dreams but he can really relate.. The reason swim decided to stay away from stims was mostly law related and family. Anyways as for the adhd swim tried to get diagnosed and swims doctor said he was not comfortable giving him adhd meds but he was OK giving swim straterra. They say its not a stimulant but it sure has the same euphoric effects as Dexedrine or adderall at least in swims experience's maybe that is something you could look into ...Though swim has discontinued the use of even strattera mainly because it is expensive... Sorry swims tired but hope that helps

[blinkKDX]

it's all a mind set.

swim felt after getting his script for addies that he'd pull off the best grades, but it didnt happen. he started feeling the exact same way swiy does. all that lead to the worst grades swim has ever gotten.

swim has had several sit downs with his family, and he has come to the conclusion that its all a mind set someone must put forth. (the whole reason swim put exercise in another post was becuase it helps swim get up and moving and "gets his mind right" just like a "quiet time" would for someone who is very religious.)

whoever it is must decide they want something bad enough and go for it, balls to the wall. swim is now on acc. probation, but knows he wants to stay at this prestigious university so he will do whatever it takes.

this includes the following before he even heads back today:
leaving his computer at his parents house (his biggest distraction)
deciding what has to be done before hand that way he "just does it".
and few others.

swim will still use adderall ever now and then, but does not like to use it too much because he starts to feel he cant function without it.

best of luck to swiy.
swim sent you a pm and hopes of response whenever convenient.

[snapper]

BlinkKDX, SWIY might want to consider nootropics like piracetam. Cheap with a nice cognitive sharpening of the mind without any recreational potential or distracting effects. There is information all over the web about it and other supplements of its kind.
However, SWIM thinks that SWIY is right on that the only thing that will get SWIY through a degree program is to buckle down, and that using adderall as a crutch will not help with academic performance. SWIM felt that speed was VERY distracting when in school and made SWIM want to do anything but study. It was sometimes useful as an occasional rescue drug when SWIM was overloaded, but any regular use made is a liability.

[Benzeneringz]

Originally Posted by Nicaine

There MUST be some solution to this problem, i.e. finding motivation without physically stressing himself to death binging on stimulants. Maybe SWIM could see if he could get diagnosed as having ADHD (altho he doesn't think he has it) and get on Adderall or something.

How would being prescribed to racemic amphetamine solve the problem? Adderall is in fact physically stressing. It's not a magic stimulant, which is what SWIY is looking for. A magic stimulant has yet to be discovered. The nature of the pharmacology behind stimulants prevents a wonder-stim from being synthesized, at least with our current knowledge. I'm posting this not to be a smartass but to point out the fallacy in SWIY's logic.

SWIM got prescribed to Adderall in 10th grade after supply of the drug wasn't as readily available as he would of liked. It took one trip to the doctor. Since then, SWIM has been on varying doses of Adderall, Adderall XR, Ritalin, and Concerta- not all at the same time although for a year SWIM was prescribed Adderall XR AND Ritalin for after school. SWIM is, and has been for over a year now, prescribed to 60mg's of generic Adderall every day. And SWIM's doctor, for some wonderful reason, has always written a script every 2 weeks instead of once a month. That's 120 of the 30mg tablets every month. What's my point? SWIM has been to hell and is trying to find his way back from this pattern of use. SWIM knows a thing or two about being addicted to stimulants. He's almost disgusted at the carelessness of his doctor but has become so obsessed with amphetamine it doesn't matter. Would you believe that SWIM takes 24 pills in 36 hours, sometimes more.. sometimes less.. but talk about physically stressful.

The whole point of my post is not to seem like an asshole, like I said earlier. It's to warn you, please don't convince yourself that getting prescribed to Adderall is a solution to quitting stims. SWIY is what SWIM was in 10th grade, that's exactly what he told himself and off to the doctor he went. It's ruined his life, and he's only 19. Don't start down the true path of social dysfunction. For your own sake.

Reputation Comments on this post:

sounds like you mean well

[Cuberun]

Originally Posted by Benzeneringz

The whole point of my post is not to seem like an asshole, like I said earlier. It's to warn you, please don't convince yourself that getting prescribed to Adderall is a solution to quitting stims. For your own sake.

I don't think Nicaine needs any warning, he's not getting adderall and does not have an addiction

[Nicaine]

SWIM (seriously) just consulted an online psychic about this matter. Is this the beginning of the end?

SWIM's decision to quit stimulants has to date been of no avail. As he's a strong believer in 'choice' and the ability of the human neocortex to act freely on the basis of rationality/logic/common sense, he can only admit that it appears he never made any such decision at all... rather, he was lying to himself and neither believed he was going to quit nor had any real plan or intention to do so.

I apologize on SWIM's behalf to everyone who was gracious enough to post here offering suggestions and comments. I'm very sorry your time was wasted on SWIM's disingenuous notions.

If SWIM ever actually decides to quit, he'll quit. Suggestions might be helpful in terms of easing the mental/physical process, but are far from required.

P.S. Mod/Op can close the thread now if they like, this is my final post.

[Ranke]

The only advice swim can offer is this. Swiy must find an outside motivator to quit stimulents. swim has found that the only times he has manged to quit using a drug is when he had some extra motivating factor. For example, when swim was 17 his massive dxm use was discovered. He was able to quit fairly easily quit because of the direct appeal for sobriety from his mother. Swim has also found that social interaction reduces his desire for drugs. He is well aware that much of his drug use stems from his isolation. When he is sitting at the computer for hours at a time what else is there to do? So if swiy desides to quit again swim suggests this. Get social contact of any kind and find a concrete reason to quit. Also, quiting at the moment might not be the best of ideas. Swiy should focus on setting up a business then the stimulent problem. As long as swiy takes a bit better care of himself while using stimulents he should be fine. Quiting in the future would probably still be a good idea though.

[snapper]

SWIM found that social situations cause SWIM to use because SWIM does not enjoy them. If SWIM were a social person, this might be different, but something tells SWIM that many on this and other drug forums are likely introverted or they would be out socializing somewhere else than a drug forum online. Sadly, when SWIM is by SWIM's self, SWIM also becomes self-indulgent. For SWIM, the only effective tool for abstination is working all the time and harm reduction, which has been a lifelong strategy to stay a functional addict. For SWIM, idle hands truely are the devil's playthings.

[Ranke]

Sorry I wasn't quite clear in that last post. Swim is quite introverted, but even introverts often have a few friends. In swims case he has three very good friends and a brother with which swim spends a lot of time gaming with and could be called "close". One of swims friends lives out of state so is rarely seen. This leaves two good friends, one of which is often working. So the majority of the time swim has one reliable social contact outside the family and one in. Nevertheless, even that small amount of face to face contact bi weekly in the case of the non family member, daily in the case of the family member, and monthly in the case of the busy friend; provides enough balence to keep him reasonably in control of his drug use. Swim will be the first to admit that he has a psychological dependance on drugs (for comfort and security) and a physical addiction to adderall, for which he has a prescription. However, he still manages to live well.

SWIM found that social situations cause SWIM to use because SWIM does not enjoy them.

Swim has also experianced this quite often, however I will refrain from responding here so as not to hijack nicaines thread. To discuss further look for the thread titled anxiety and drug use under this section (can't think of any other place it fits).

[Nicaine]

SWIM is on an extended break from stimulants, with a distinct possibility of quitting entirely. Not really of his own choice, basically it was down to the wire... the last few comedowns + 24-48 hours afterward SWIM felt so sh*tty he was close to calling an ambulance, so it was a combination of fear + waning enjoyment that did it.

SWIM still feels nowhere near 'normal' 4+ days later, but things are improving (aside from a mild readdiction to kratom). ATM he's using a combination of L-Tyrosine + low dose bupropion (~100mg/day). He also has a new computer to play with, which is a nice distraction. Lots of setting up & tweaking still left to do. The other kind of tweaking...

[a-SalviaLover]

SWIM stops amph by slowly reducing the dosage and then switching to ephedrine, while taking weighgain protein (from the fitness centre)/ginkgo biloba/vitamins and lots of social interaction. Ephedrine can be stopped more easily a few weaks later. SWIM is also introvert, but amph made him learn how to communicate with people and he also realised that he gets cravings usually when he is alone. Certain circumstances often make SWIM relapse (studying for exams, performing better at school/work, handling hard-to-handle situations), so he's done this successfully several times, though not for more than 2 months (which is quite enough for SWIM to recover).

[Nicaine]

SWIM still hasn't touched stimulants (except Wellbutrin)... today was about day 8, if I remember correctly. He's not having a difficult time at all, altho having kratom + bupropion around seems to be one of the main reasons. Also there's the fact that his drug of choice wasn't meth, which SWIM is very grateful for.

He still doesn't know if he's taking a break or has quit permanently, but I guess it doesn't really matter... no such thing as 'permanent' anything, until you're dead. If he starts again, there's the knowledge that quitting is not gonna be too big a deal.