Yopo - Anadenanthera colubrina Basics

[kinkar]

Forgot to ask what tek is swiy using? Has swiy decided to go with Motumba's tek or Anadenanthera's?

[ppp]

well, the last time swim used motumba's tek. actually, there's not much difference.
swim wanted to use anadenanthera's tek, but was unable to dissolve all the stuff in ipa properly, so he'd be able to filter out the solids. it didn't dissolve in ipa completely and after adding water and stirring like hell whitish solids which formed in ipa dissolved as well.

[kinkar]

heh...right Hey did swiy dissolve all the solids that were left after the initial boiling/filtering step in the water/alcohol solution? Cuz swim was reading and it seems that Anadenanthera's tek makes more sense than Motumba's. In Motumba's you just add alcohol and water, then let everything dissolve into it. In A's you filter out the solids after adding the alcohol. Since Bufotenine is freely soluble in alcohol, the alcohol serves a purpose in A's tek and seems redundant in M's tek.

Now the question that comes up is if the bufotenine moves into the alcohol, why would swimmers want to add water before getting rid of the solids that (in theory) dont hold the bufotenine anymore. It seems logical to get rid of this stuff.

So Swim started thinking and wondered why would this step call for alcohol and not acetone since bufo is soluble in that to. Then Swim thought maybe acetone doesnt mix well with water. Since water is required for the bufo and calcium hydroxide to react, using acetone would be a problem if it doesnt mix with water like alcohol does. So Swim understands why alcohol is necessary at this step.

[kinkar]

Swizzle figured she would write up a kind of tek research summary for getting the calcium bufotenate:

(If anyone can confirm or refute uncertainties in these ( )'s please do)

[Under the premise that bufotenine becomes completely soluble in water at ph 3]
1. Grind up the seeds and put them in water made ph 3 heated on the stove.
(Not sure about whether to boil or simmer as swim has yet to find information about whether or not boiling the water would hurt the bufotenine molecule)
2. Do enough pulls with the water to get all the good stuff out, then combine the pulls and evaporate all the water.
-It seems logical that the more water evaporated at this step, the less unwanted crap is going to be in the fluid once the alcohol is added and the solids filtered out since any of the unwanted matter that has dissolved into the water would not get filtered out. Just a thought-

[Under the premise that the bufotenine in the matter would dissolve into the alcohol]
3. Add alcohol to the matter left over after the evaporation of the water, enough to dissolve all the bufotenine and left to sit long enough to do so.
(Swim doesnt know how many mg's of bufotenine can disolve into a set amount of isopropyl alcohol, or how long it would take for all the bufotenine to migrate from the solids to the alcohol)

[Assuming all the bufotenine is now in the isopropyl alcohol]
4. Filter out the solids and evaporate alcohol to a syrupy consistency.
5. Add water 1:1 to the alcohol and mix in enough calcium hydroxide to make all the bufotenine react with it to form calcium bufotenate.
6. Let it sit long enough for the reaction to occur (From what swim hears 6 hours min.)
7. Evaporate the liquid.

[Assuming acetone will pull the calcium bufotenate, leave the calcium hydroxide, and only take minimal other chemicals from whats left after evaporation]
8. Add acetone (a generous portion from what ive read) to the matter and let it sit for about an hour. Do this until the acetone does not change color after an hour or so.
9. Evaporate the acetone and the resulting matter should be mostly calcium bufotenate

This information was taken from various sources on this site and others. I post it to invite discussion and further understanding of the extraction of calcium bufotenate.
Please feel free to tear this apart and add to it. Its a work in progress

[ppp]

* To your syrup add alcohol (91% isopropyl alcohol is great), enough to make it easy to poor. Mix it for a minute or so. Solids will forms.

heyhey!!! i guess, i got it now!
swim's water/acid extract (this time swim took hydrocloric acid, btw) was still pretty liquid, not a thick syrup (or completely dried out like the last time). swim added ipa to it and - voila! - he got the "milky" liquid and that sticky resin just like the last time (which he molt with water). so i guess, what anadenanthera means with "solids" is that resin, that got to be discarded. so, swim's still saving it (in case, he got it wrong ), but right now he's continuing the extraction with the stuff solved in ipa.

[Corky]

I can't seem to edit my posts, so I feel obligated to mention that all my preceding posts were of a Fictitious nature.

Pure fantasy!

[kinkar]

heyhey!!! i guess, i got it now!
swim's water/acid extract (this time swim took hydrocloric acid, btw) was still pretty liquid, not a thick syrup (or completely dried out like the last time). swim added ipa to it and - voila! - he got the "milky" liquid and that sticky resin just like the last time (which he molt with water). so i guess, what anadenanthera means with "solids" is that resin, that got to be discarded. so, swim's still saving it (in case, he got it wrong ), but right now he's continuing the extraction with the stuff solved in ipa.

Im excited to hear Swiys extraction is underway! Cant wait to hear the results. Yea swims pretty sure the motumba/erowid tek is flawed in that the addition of alcohol is completely redundant since it is not used as a selective filtering solvent. Swim is really excited and facinated with the potential for a yield of 2 grams from a pound of seeds. If a dose is 10mg's as just about every experience with calcium bufo says then thats like 200 trips! Plus it is said to be more powerfull than DMT! Plus the seeds are hella cheap! Calcium Bufotenine is all the rave with swim right now.

Corky ive seen your name before on another forum along with Anadenanthera's. Is the extraction with 1 pound mentioned here the same one described on that forum? The one where Anadenanthera turns out to be scandalous and gets banned or something?

[kinkar]

Swim wanted to write out the experience with the first attempted extraction in full in case it may be helpfull. Swim has given bits and pieces of what was done around the forums but wants to lay it all out here step for step since this seems to be the "official" anadenanthera extraction thread.

Swizzle followed the tek written out by Barron on Erowid.

1. Seeds were toasted and deshelled.
2. Seeds were ground into a quazi powder form using some pliars and a razor blade.
3. 9 parts water were mixed with 1 part fresh squeezed juice frome lime's and lemons. From what swim's read this makes the water ph 3, plz correct if wrong.
4. Seeds were added to the water, boiled for about an hour, filtered and reboiled with new water for a total of 1 hour boils.
5. The water was combined and the seed powder was filtered out and discarded.
6. The water was boiled until it evaporated leaving the pan with a brown solid.
7. The solid was scraped up and equal parts of water and alcohol were added to it.
8. Swim had to work the solids with his fingers to get them to dissolve and it was quite tedious.
9. A portion of calcium hydroxide of about the same amount (if not a bit more) as the origional brown solid was added to the water/alcohol solution. It was eyeballed not weighed.
10. Let the solution sit overnight, probably for about 10 hours.
11. The solution was put into the stove at 350 degrees until the liquid evaporated. It was not completely bone dry but some parts were.
12. Acetone was added for 4 intervals of 1 hour then filtered into another dish to dissolve.
(I didnt realize it at first but I am certain that much of the brown powder made it through the filter as I was hasty during filtration and squeezed the liquid through the filter forcefully)
13. Acetone all combined and disolved leaving a couple grams of brown solid.
14. Swim vaporized it in various quantities and found it to be inactive.
15. In consideration of the matter that made it through the filter, swim scraped the powder from the acetone evap plate, mixed it with the powder left from the alcohol/water evaporation and added alcohol to it. (some of the solids remained on the acetone evap plate but swim didnt bother with them since there wasnt much)
16. 4 alcohol pulls from the matter filtered (carefully this time combined and evaporated yielding a brownish/yellowish sticky substance and not much of it.
17. Substance was scraped up and vaporized with no effects.
End of story

So there are several places where swim went wrong here and she feels that condemning the motumba/erowid tek based on this experience would be foolish. However the results with this tek posted by ppp were not a success. Whether or not swiy's extraction deviated to the extent that swim's did, swim cannot say. If ppp is certain that the tek was followed precisely I think there is a case for refuting tek's that dont use alcohol as a selective filtering solvent.

[Corky]

swim wouldn't call it more far out than dmt, swim would call it apples and oranges with dmt.

[kinkar]

heh? whats this? apples and oranges?

[kinkar]

So uhh ppp... any umm results no need to rush.. swim's only been on the edge of her seat with her eyes peeled refreshing the screen every 2 minutes for 3 days now She's really excited

[ppp]

ok, first try failed. there was no effect at all.
however, swim thought it would be like it. swim was distracted for some time during the alcohol evaporation and believes that he burned all the good stuff.
he feels like an idiot, but wants to try again

Reputation Comments on this post:

thanks for trying

[kinkar]

sigh...

[ppp]

well, this time swim made everything right...
but a friend of his had nearly no effect after vaporizing around 7mgs...

[kinkar]

That blows, these people with their teks dont know what their talking about i guess

[Entropymancer]

I suspect the problem might be wet acetone. Typically, acetone from the hardware strore contains a certain amount of water. Normally this isn't an issue.

But calcium bufotenide doesn't look like it's necessarily stable in the presence of water at neutral pH. I imagine there'd be enough hydronium ion in solution to protonate the aromatic alcohol moiety, dissociating the salt into bufotenin and calcium. Better results might be obtained by drying the acetone prior to use (ie with magnesium sulfate or similar).

[kinkar]

not stable at a neutral ph? hmmm, ive read its very stable at high ph but does that mean that it would be very unstable in an acidic solution?

[Entropymancer]

Originally Posted by kinkar

not stable at a neutral ph? hmmm, ive read its very stable at high ph but does that mean that it would be very unstable in an acidic solution?

Yup, I'd imagine that at neutral pH, it'd either be insoluble in water, or the 5-oxide would get protonated back to a 5-hydroxyl, dissociating the salt. In acidic aqueous conditions, you're definitely going to be protonating the oxide and dissociating the calcium salt; depending on exactly how acidic we're talking, you may bypass the freebase entirely and just convert the calcium bufontenide into an acid salt of bufotenine.

[kinkar]

at ph 3 after it forms an acid salt it would still be plausible that it could be converted back to calcium bufotenide right? Swim is wondering as this is a step in the teks that nobody can get to work.

[Entropymancer]

It certainly ought to be able to convert from the acid salt to the calcium salt, as long as there's sufficient hydroxide present.

Have people been kneading the calcium hydroxide into the lime very thoroughly? Moist solid-phase interactions aren't likely to proceed as quickly as in an aqueous solution, so this step could take time and periodic mixing to go to completion.

If the acid forms favorable (insoluble) salts with calcium, then the reacion would require a 3:2 or 2:1 molar ratio of lime to bufotenin.

[Entropymancer]

So I've been reading around a bit, and I'm curious. A question for those who recommend calcium bufotenate as a much smoother experience:

Have you tried isolating bufotenine freebase by itself, and using this material instead? If so, how does it compare to the calcium bufotenate?

I was reading Jonathan Ott's bioassays, and it sounds like bufotenin freebase produces the same smoother experience that's being described with the calcified material. It may be that generating the calcium salt isn't necessary for the enhanced experience.

Here's the extraction/isolation process he used:

ISOLATION AND PURIFICATION OF BUFOTENINE FREE-BASE
Coarse-ground powder of 125g of seeds of A. colubrina var. Cebil was stirred twice for eight hours in 500 ml of 96% ethanol 1% tartaric acid, the combined filtrates concentrated to 150 ml and diluted with 200 ml water in a separatory-funnel, causing precipitation of considerable fat. The pH was adjusted to 3-4 with concentrated hydrochloric acid, and the solution defatted by shaking six times with chloroform, which was set aside. The defatted extract was basified to pH 8-9 with ammonium hydroxide, then again extracted eight times with 200 ml chloroform; the combined chloroform extracts were concentrated to a foamy, yellowish oil that dissolved completely in 50 ml hot ethyl acetate, then concentrated to 15 ml and refrigerated overnight. In the morning there were a brace of minuscule rosettes of dark-brownish crystals growing at the base of the flask, which was alternated between periods under refrigeration and standing unstoppered at room temperature during 48 hours, leading to the formation of large masses (some greater than 1cm) of dark-brownish, prismatic crystals. The mother-liquor was decanted and the crystalline mass rinsed with cold ethyl acetate dried over magnesium sulfate, then dried under reduced pressure to yield 4.1 g of large, free-flowing, sparkling brownish crystals. These were twice recrystallized from dry ethyl acetate, yielding 3.87 g of off-white bufotenine free-base crystals (3. 10%), m.p. 125-126° C. Despite loss of chromophores on recrystallizations, the melting point remained 124-126°. Six reports of isolated bufotenine free-base, from Amanita citrina (Schaef.) Gray (Agaricaceae) (Wieland & Motzel 1953) and Anadenanthera species (Rendón 1984; lacobucci & Rdveda 1964; Pachter, Zacharias & Ribeiro 1959; Alvares Pereira 1957; Stromberg 1954-yields reported were from 0.94-7.4% for A. peregrina to 0.5-2.1 % for A. colubrina), disclosed two crystalline isoforms from ethyl acetate, one melting from [123-]124-126[-129]° C, the other 146-147[-150]° C. Two reports of synthetic material disclosed a third isoform, with melting points of 138-140° C (Stoll et al. 1955); and again 146-147° C (Speeter & Anthony 1954). In all cases involving the lower-melting-point isoforms, repeated purification did not alter the melting point, although Iacobucci and Rdveda (1964), upon seeding a recrystallization-solution of their lower melting point isoform (123-124° C) with crystals having m.p. 146-147° C, got only crystals of the latter type, which operation was not reversible. By manipulating conditions of recrystallization from ethyl acetate, I was able to generate crystals melting at 145-147° C, and confirmed Iacobucci and RtIveda's observation. DMT free-base from hexane likewise exists as at least three isoforms, melting points from 44-74° C having been reported, and Fish, Johnson and Horning (1956) replicated the irreversible transformation of a lower-melting-point isoform (47-49° C) into a higher-melting-point isoform (71-73° C). Identity and purity of isolated bufotenine were verified by mass-spectral analysis and thin-layer chromatographic comparison with an authentic sample in several solvent systems.

[ppp]

Originally Posted by Entropymancer

Have you tried isolating bufotenine freebase by itself, and using this material instead? If so, how does it compare to the calcium bufotenate?
[...]
Here's the extraction/isolation process he used:

well, the thing is - where should a normal human being get chloroform (or tartaric acid)?
however, if you believe, swim's extract may contain pure bufotenin instead of calcium bufotenate, swim may add some calcium hydroxide to it again...

btw, swim hasn't try freebase bufotenin, but i heard, it is way better than acidic bufotenin, but the effect is still weaker than that from calcium bufotenate and the bodyload is a bit worse, too.

[Entropymancer]

well, the thing is - where should a normal human being get chloroform (or tartaric acid)?

Why, make them yourself, silly. Well, actually the easiest place to get tartaric acid is a wine-making supply shop (or the internet). One can make chloroform from acetone and bleach (don't try at home unless you understand what you're doing).

But really, you don't necessarily need to take things so literally. It's not likely vital to use tartaric acid, just as long as the solution is still appropriately acidified. And while chloroform is known to be an effective solvent here, I imagine toluene, xylene, or a binary mix of hexane/ether would also be decent extraction solvents. For defatting, naphtha/shellite/bestine/etc. ought to work fine, and I expect toluene and xylene would as well.

however, if you believe, swim's extract may contain pure bufotenin instead of calcium bufotenate, swim may add some calcium hydroxide to it again...

It's not that I necessarily believe it does... I'm just wondering how you know it doesn't?

[Alfa]

Originally Posted by Entropymancer

don't try at home unless you understand what you're doing

This is a major understatement. We are talking about volatile, highly inflammable and toxic substances here. Making these things can easily go wrong.

Please read this and watch the pretty pics to get an idea about what we are talking about here.

Chemistry is something that needs to be taken very serious, with utter caution when it comes to safety. Please do not post dangerous advise here. We currently have 150.000 readers a month on here and rising steeply. Some may try out what you write. Remember this when posting.

[ppp]

well, i guess, in that case swim's friend would feel pretty bad from pure bufotenine...
swim may try to vapor about 15 mgs (maybe next weekend), if he wont feel any effect (even heavy bodyload ), that would prove you wrong...
however, i believe, calcium bufotenate should be stable enough in presence of water...