GBL conversion problem

[DrStrange]

Have searched but not seen this even referred to. A vague aquaintence got some GBL and mixed the appropriate amount of NaOH with it per receipes on internet. Checked the pH (which was near 10) and then tasted it and it tasted much like solvent! Tolerable but not nice at all. He thought it was supposed to be just salty; not like used rocket fuel. So he upped the pH clear to 11 w/ more NaOH and heated it in a water bath just short of boiling for over an hour and tasted again. Still solventy. Tried a dose (well several) and it works just fine as a sleep aid. Very fine actually. But the taste is a bit worrisome.

Does this mean that he somehow still has largely or partly GBL despite the high pH and long reaction time? Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated.

Also, as long as I am relaying his questions, he has a bit of concern about the 1% mystery ingredients of his 99% pure GBL. Any ideas what these might be? Could they be dangerous w/ long term use? If so, anyone know approx yield of crystalization when reaction is carried out in ethanol or isopropal alch instead of H2)???

Thank you all and sleep tight!

[MrG]

It depends which version of the recipe your friend tried. SWIM's version was followed to the letter and with the exact methods and measures it converted perfectly to 7.8 ph. SWIM thinks that there are some basic misunderstandings about the *best* way to convert and that, having read of problems encountered by other swimmers, he thinks that it might be an idea for there to be a list of common mistakes posted so that people can avoid them.

E.G. 200ml of distilled water should be added to the 63g of naoh and then that liquid should then be, in small amounts, added to the 120ml GBL which has been heated to just over 100c - some recipes call for the gbl to be added to the naoh which is an incorrect method.

GBL boils at over 200c which is why some people end up with a thick gloop when they try to gauge the temp by waiting for it to boil. A catering thermometer is the answer. (Stainless steel)

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good advice, and good idea to have a list of common mistakes, maybe SWIY should start a thread with this topic?

[DrStrange]

well there you are!!!! Thank you MrG, SWIM added the GBL to the NaOH. Not sure why it would matter but obviously it does. His proportions were about the same though he only has a crappy little plastic balance scale so not very precise. Over basing I would guess isn't so much of a problem as can just adjust back w/ a bit of HCl. I read that there is a tendency for the GBH to convert back partially to GBL and it is a good idea to keep it at about pH 8.5-9 to prevent that and still be safe to drink.

Many thanks! Next batch maybe will taste MUCH better. Nothing like swilling down rocket fuel right before bed.

[MrG]

Heating the GBL to the right temp is crucial as it is that which allows the naoh to trigger the reaction.

My guess is that your friend's first batch is nothing more than a solution of gbl/naoh/water

Don't let your friend get too carried away with having a high ph value as strong alkalis are just as bad as strong acids.

He should aim for not more than 8 as it will sit better on the stomach. If your friend can follow the instructions exactly he should end up around there anyway.

[DrStrange]

Appreciate the tips for sure. His receipe didn't say anything about temp except not to add GBL (yeah, backwards) too fast and cause boilover. He should have no problem following this new improved version! He will be one happy camper. So will his wife! It kind of a family thing

[MrG]

SWIM knows *exactly* what you mean, he and his wife have been enjoying the results of their most recent home chemistry experiment every night for the past week.

WooHoo!

[garbled]

Have you been enjoying the sexual aspects? SWIM can't recall a hornier girl than one on G.

[~lostgurl~]

Originally Posted by garbled

Have you been enjoying the sexual aspects? SWIM can't recall a hornier girl than one on G.

Couldn't agree with that more!

[MrG]

SWIM says that figuring out the dosing is a bitch though. Not in a "omg we're gonna die! - media stylee" but in a "mmmMMMMmmm that's good MmmMMMMMMmmmm . . . .*snore* snore* - Honey you awake? . . . Damn."

He found that for over a week he had the dosing for both of them spot on and every night they were at it like rabbits for hours. Then they ran out of mj and, as he is not a smoker and was getting a stimulant effect from the nicotine in the joints they were smoking whilst taking G, he has been hitting snoresville instead of his wife!

So, in conclusion, he says that while G does indeed make for mind-and-everything-else-blowing (pun intended) sex, users need to make sure that they take into account factors which may affect how quickly their body reaches the tipping point into sleep.

[DrStrange]

Mr. G I've been thinking. (Uh-oh!) You said NaOH must be added to the GBL and NOT the other way around. Hard for me to imagine why this would make any difference. I know very little, well almost no, chemistry and esp physical chem but I am curious. Maybe the 100 degree heat is the key that drives the reaction? SWIM never heated his mixture that high. And the receipe he used said heating was optional. But maybe it is necessary?

But if you add A to B or B to A you still end up with the same amounts of A and B in the reaction vessel and the molecules bump into each other and there you are. Or not and if not, I'd love to know why? I having it in too basic a solution i.e. the concentrated NaOH maybe blocks the reaction and the other way you are reacting a small amount of base in an acid solution????

If anybody knows about this arcane level of the process I'd love some enlightenment.

[DrStrange]

Oh well duh. Writing it made me think of possible answer...adding A to B (GBL to NaOH) you have a large volume of very strong base in the reaction vessel and add small amount of acid so it stays a very basic medium. The other way, adding B to A you add a small amount of strong base to a mildly acidic, large volume and as the base dilutes out you will hit some critical pH for the reaction to occur. Adding A to B you essentially stay very basic all the time and maybe that blocks the reaction???

[MrG]

It is also a safety issue, if you happen to get splashback from adding one to the other it is less harmful to get splashed with a mild acid than from liquid NaOH.

In the definitive recipe http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26198

You will see another contributor state how he does it the other way around, in a glass flask and at a narrow temp range. This is all well and good for those who have easy access to lab kit and accurate thermal conditions but my posted recipe is designed to:

A) Be relatively safe whilst,
B) Achieving as high a success rate as possible for a proper conversion using ordinary household items.

Heat is required somewhere in the process in order to open up the molecule for binding and that could be achieved without a direct heat source on the GBL by the exothermic reaction created when adding large amounts of NaOH to the GBL. I believe, however, it is much safer to heat the GBL and add the NaOH in small amounts.

I guess that was the reason for posting that recipe, I had read so many slightly different methods and many that left parts of the process open to misinterpretation and many reports of chemists ending up with foul smelling oddly coloured sticky gloop with no idea of its composition.

[DrStrange]

good points. Receipe SWIM had said to add NaOH slowly and heat was optional. He did heat at the end but double boiler style and obviously not hot enough. There was quite a bit of heat generated during the addition but likely what he ended up with was a mix of GBL and GHB and NaOh in water. Definitely not as slimy or solventy as pure GBL. Next batch can only be better with this new info!

[psyche]

A catering thermometer is the answer. (Stainless steel)

So couldn't one just boil it on a stove with stainless steel equipment instead of the glassware which should be obtained for the process? Erowid's chem&synth faq says:

Q: I do not have the glassware you say are needed, can I boil the solution in a pot on the stove instead?
A: No, you can not. The sodium hydroxide will corrode the metal, and assorted metal ions will get into your product. You can of course use simpler glassware than in my suggestions, and make the neccessary adjustments of the procedure.

Only way around that is IMO that they mean alumine by the 'metal', but I think they would've mentioned it.

[MrG]

You can use stainless steel for the heating of the gbl but you have to be sure that it is proper stainless steel and not some cheap knockoff and definitely no teflon!

To be honest, you'd be hard pressed to find a kitchen that doesn't have at least one pyrex measuring jug. Just stick that on the hob.