Mystical Experiences

[Kid A]

For some time SWIM has been reading up on psychedelics and their effects on the mindm but SWIM has one question which has not been answered. It has to do with these so called "mystical experiences."

SWIM hears about all these people having these experiences and how they changed their lives. But SWIM is confused.

Do these people actually believe what they experienced after the trip is over and they are sober? For instance, if SWIM took a large amount of LSD and saw god and talked to god, would SWIM think of this experience as just a trip simply caused by a drug, or would he see it as a real experience where he actually saw and talked to the almighty god? Or do they simply see it as a new perspective, a new idea that has been given to them by the drug?

SWIM hears about all these people believing in what they experienced and, no offense, finds it stupid that these people actually believe in what they see. This is not to say that SWIM thinks these drugs are stupid, just the gullibility / suggestibility of these people. Its like these people take what they experienced to be truth, and not just a new perspective / idea / drug induced situation.

or

does this all simply depend on the person? If SWIM has the mindset that it will show him a new idea, and not a truth, will it do simply that and just "show" SWIM a new idea?

I dont know if I am explaining this properly...

[Trebor]

I think that people who claim to have met god on acid are people who believe they have seen the "god machine". That is they believe they see the world as god made it. In all it's beauty. Read the dorrs of perception to learn more.


"A rose is a rose is a rose, but these chair legs were St. Michael and all the angels." Aldous Huxley.

[Mona Lisa]

Originally Posted by Kid A

For some time SWIM has been reading up on psychedelics and their effects on the mindm but SWIM has one question which has not been answered. It has to do with these so called "mystical experiences."

SWIM hears about all these people having these experiences and how they changed their lives. But SWIM is confused.

Do these people actually believe what they experienced after the trip is over and they are sober? For instance, if SWIM took a large amount of LSD and saw god and talked to god, would SWIM think of this experience as just a trip simply caused by a drug, or would he see it as a real experience where he actually saw and talked to the almighty god? Or do they simply see it as a new perspective, a new idea that has been given to them by the drug?

SWIM hears about all these people believing in what they experienced and, no offense, finds it stupid that these people actually believe in what they see. This is not to say that SWIM thinks these drugs are stupid, just the gullibility / suggestibility of these people. Its like these people take what they experienced to be truth, and not just a new perspective / idea / drug induced situation.

or

does this all simply depend on the person? If SWIM has the mindset that it will show him a new idea, and not a truth, will it do simply that and just "show" SWIM a new idea?

I dont know if I am explaining this properly...

SWIM belileves it's possible for an intense experience, whether it be from drugs or skydiving, to be percieved as mystical. Such experiences bring out SWIM's vulnerability and thus, could often make a person consider her own mortality and the meaning of life, as well as living very much in that moment. Conciousness could be well be retuned onto different frequencies of awareness which could partially explain such mystical experiences. This can also happen when one is very sick or injured, or having a gun pointed at her head!

[Kid A]

but we are just applying words to these situations. Like if I saw a winged creature on a drug, with a human form, and I felt it was wholly good, I might say it was an angel, simply because this thing I saw fits the description of an angel.


haha Im actually rereading Dorrs of Perception again.

[Kid A]

its like 9/11. So many people saw the planes hit the buildings and they believe it was actually terrorist, but then there are people that see the same stuff and think its terrorists, but they actually have the sense to think, "well maybe what I saw wasnt true, even tho it seemed that way"

[wellhelm]

Swim has had a few "mystical" experience's. All have been drug induced though and he is well aware of that. The experience's he has had that he would consider mystical have put new perspective's on things for swim. He finds it hard to believe anything when it come's to religious or spiritual belief's as truth, especially when one has been druged induced, but they can allow swim the freedom to experience things outside the realm of normality and swim deduct's what is wanted and discard's what is not from the experience. Frankly, swim does not believe a mystical experience on drugs to be truth but none the less the experience was real no matter how abstract and yes when swim sobers up he often takes with him new insights gained he probably would have never have recieved elsewhere. Swim guess'es he's a sucker hustleing swimself into this semantic headgame but whatever.

[D.U.M.B]

when you see things you were never meant to see thats when you begin to question everything. SWIM has found this to be his main mystical expierence on drugs etc.

[Solidly-here]

Mystical experience?

Everybody has felt a little magic.

Some people have only felt that magic in their childhood, but that feeling does exist. If a child sees something "magical" (like a magician doing tricks), he can believe that it is real. Or, his Mom reads him a bed-time story; most of these contain magic, or magical creatures. A child can believe this.

Adults are another matter. But, if you are in the dark, and are looking around, you can easily see MANY things which aren't there. Your eyes are seeing something, and your brain is attempting to make something out of it. In one way, that is a mystical experience.

LSD is sort-of-like being in the dark. You look at something, and maybe see something else.

If I feel like I have experienced God, how is that different from a child, feeling like he has witnessed that bed-time story?

My Life is composed of what I believe.
I can believe that everyone else is trying to take advantage of me. This will make me VERY aware of what others are doing around me.

I can believe that everyone else is a part of God. This will make me feel a kin-ship to others, and trust will build.

I can believe that God is a separate being ... in Heaven (wherever that is). This will affect the way I perceive my Life.

Whatever I perceive the World to be, is what the World actually is.
There are 7 Billion people; therefore, there are 7 Billion different Worlds.

I live in my own World.
You live in your own World.

My World has its own Rules; its own emotions; its own Truth.
Your World is personal to you (and I cannot see your World the way you do).

If my World contains a visitation with the Almighty, then it does.
After such a powerful visitation, my perspective of the World changes (at least temporarily).
Then, I can easily forget the power of that realization ... it fades quietly away.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Beautiful Writing SH

[BEEKSc1]

Kid A.
the experience you described that is similar to the popular perception,
that if you have an out of body experience, you might talk to Jesus or shake hands with God...
I think that is a sensationalized story that could have started by a lonely fundamentalist with a taunted unconscious.

but a mystical experience involves conscious-awareness of ultimate reality, a unified
state throughout all of creation
hence psychedelics, yoga, and mediation, united the subject and objective qualities of perception of reality. as trebor stated, Aldous Huxley, Doors of Perception

Solidly Here, so do you reject an objective reality, as determined the original life-giving force? and maybe the emotions you have experienced were experienced by some other person in some other situation, in which resulted in similar fashions.
yes, we all perceive reality subjectively; is there an objective reality? that is what we are indirectly discussing... and what rules govern your suppossed specific reality? do they not apply to the laws of the metaphysical universe? and what explicitly is truth in your world?

I think the point may be, cooperation and learning from others is essentail so that we may perceive reality more with more precision and reliability. hence, that persons may experience reality with more objectivity as determined by humanity's Creator.

[Solidly-here]

BEEKSc1 asks me: "Solidly Here, so do you reject an objective reality, as determined the original life-giving force? and maybe the emotions you have experienced were experienced by some other person in some other situation, in which resulted in similar fashions."

I do not understand what you are requesting from me.
Could you re-phrase your question?

And, "what rules govern your suppossed specific reality? do they not apply to the laws of the metaphysical universe?"

I don't know what "specific reality" is, will you clarify?
But whatever else, my beliefs (Rules) can survive also in the Metaphysical universe.

"and what explicitly is truth in your world?"

I don't know if I believe in (a sort of absolute) Truth, certainly not in this existence.
I have things I take to be True.
But my True things are only True because of my Subjective perspective.
I have many other things which I believe are un-True.
So, I can't even explicitly tell you what un-Truth is.

I ask you: What's Truth in your world?
If I can see where you're going, it will help me to get on your wave-length.

[BEEKSc1]

specific reality... you said you live in your own world; and your own rules; when I put specific, I meant the reality as described by you as pertaining to your subjective experience

Absolute truth cannot be fully acheived in this existance, I acknowledge that, seems like you do too. But if something were true, it would entail truth; and we can only postulate what is absolute truth, here on Eart. I think self-actualization involves the process of aspiring for truth.
Unity, Consciousness, relating to others, personal expression, and collectivistic cooperation may possible lead to absolute truth as determined by humanity's Creator.

[Solidly-here]

Beeks, I do not know if you are deliberately trying to appear ignorant (or not).

I said: "I don't know if I believe in (a sort of absolute) Truth, certainly not in this existence."
Then you say: "Absolute truth cannot be fully acheived in this existance, I acknowledge that, seems like you do too."
You said almost the exact same thing I did. Do you know this? Do you care?

Then, your next sentence contradicts yourself: "Unity, Consciousness, relating to others, personal expression, and collectivistic cooperation may possibly lead to absolute truth".
So, now you declare that (1) you believe Absolute Truth exists, and even that (2) it might be found here on Earth. It's difficult to discuss things with someone who can't keep his opinion straight from one sentence to the next.

And, you seem to be pretending to use the right words, but are not using clear words at all: "specific reality... ... I meant the reality as described by you as pertaining to your subjective experience."
_________________________

In the mean-time, you completely refused to answer the questions I posed to you. Why aren't you answering them ... that is, if you REALLY want me to give out my opinions?

If no answers are forthcoming, then please leave me alone, so I can communicate with someone who actually wants to hear what I think.

[BEEKSc1]

Absolute truth exists; yet, humans cannot acheive this fully on Earth. Through the powers of the original life-force, human will receive infinate knowledge and conceptual understanding when physical reality ceases for each individual. It is our duty to seek out truth on Earth.

Unity, Consciousness, relating to others, personal expression, and collectivistic cooperation may possibly lead to absolute truth, ON Earth.

Your desperate attempts to agitate need to stop; get to the point.

[El Calico Loco]

My friend Swim has spoken to God on several occasions, but still isn't sure whether (S)He exists. He remains agnostic.

Solidly-here put it well. Everyone experiences two separate realities: the objective and the subjective. We call the things we all agree on "objective". I think Robert Anton Wilson phrases it better as "consensus reality". 99.9 percent of us may accept this world based on physics and chemistry, but many mystics and those "mental illness" do not. I know from my science background that it is possible for one person to be right and all others wrong, so I don't judge them too harshly.

In our dealings with others, I think it best to use the things most of us can agree on - ie, Consensus Reality. In our individual quests for enlightenment, spirituality, God, etc, on the other hand, no one can tell another how to think or feel. It is a personal quest based on experience, and it is currently impossible to take experiences out of one person's nervous system and put them into another's. There's no sin in attempting to persuade others to one's point of view, but those who try to force their ideologies on others are missing the point. Badly.


ECL

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by Kid A

SWIM hears about all these people having these experiences and how they changed their lives. But SWIM is confused.

Do these people actually believe what they experienced after the trip is over and they are sober? For instance, if SWIM took a large amount of LSD and saw god and talked to god, would SWIM think of this experience as just a trip simply caused by a drug, or would he see it as a real experience where he actually saw and talked to the almighty god?

What does it really matter? An experience is an experience, whether it takes place as a (sleeping) dream, a hallucination, meditative spiritual experience or whatever.

Why should one experience have more intrinsic value than others? I mean that quite literally: For example, why is the experience of taking a dump somehow different or less (more?) valuable than an experience of merging with God? It's all "just" experiencing, all of equal value. Love all of it or love none of it. The actual playing field is flat, but *we* add the "negative" or "positive" and cling or shun to experiences. Why not just enjoy whatever comes along.

[augentier]

Originally Posted by Nicaine

What does it really matter? An experience is an experience, whether it takes place as a (sleeping) dream, a hallucination, meditative spiritual experience or whatever.

Why should one experience have more intrinsic value than others? I mean that quite literally: For example, why is the experience of taking a dump somehow different or less (more?) valuable than an experience of merging with God? It's all "just" experiencing, all of equal value. Love all of it or love none of it. The actual playing field is flat, but *we* add the "negative" or "positive" and cling or shun to experiences. Why not just enjoy whatever comes along.

I totally agree with Nicaine here. Whatever you experience is just that - an experience. If I were to drop acid and talk to God, I would believe that a part of my mind opened that made me aware of something higher than myself - as I don't believe in GOD, a person or actual entity like most religions portray, but as something "bigger" than myself. I would focus more on what was discussed, and why I might be hallucinating this.

If I saw elves skipping around the lawn sneezing multi-colored fairy dust, I certainly would not wake up the next day thinking there are elves living in my backyard, however I might secretly say to myself, "Hey..they could be skipping around in the next dimension..."


I really believe that certain trips are more symbolic than others. Some trips are purely nonsense, and some can be teachers. I think that anyone who is aware and open can differ between the two, and establish whatever beliefs they may.

[Henfer]

A really mind-blowing LSD experience can of course change your life totally. Certainly, SWIM's life changed.

He's seeing everything sharper (in a metaphorical sense) and watches a lot more for details, and sometimes just enjoys being alive. creativity and musical sensitivity was raised big time.

this can be either a chemical change in how the brain works for you... or just that you've seen all those beautiful things and beauty of life itself (read huxley's book it's very informative), that everything seems just so much more full of sense.