Opinions - How much of the nitrous experience is just oxygen deprivation?

[El Calico Loco]

This is something I've wondered about for some time. My test subject has been under the influence of N2O at the dentist on numerous occasions and has gone through his fair share - ye gods, probably hundreds - of whippets.

He's found the dentist experience to be significantly different from the whippet experience. He doesn't hold his breath in the dentist's chair, nor does he visit the dentist whilst on other chemicals (tempting as it may be). The dentist experience is nothing more than pure calm, mild dissociation (much like a first or second plateau DXM trip), vibration, and flanging. The whippet experience - whether holding it in or hyperventilating from the balloon - leads to a whole new level. The whole "fusion of dualities" and "god" experiences that people talk about.

He prefers nitrous in combination with other things, primarily 2C-E and DXM. Sometimes cannabis is in the mix as well. He's found that, while on such substances, he can mimic much of what nitrous adds to the experience in two different ways: one, by holding his breath for as long as possible; two, by practicing meditative techniques that lead to a natural sort of dissociation.

With the first method, he will get many of the same visuals from 2C-E that he would if he were holding in nitrous for awhile. With the second, he gets no such visuals, but seems to approach the tunnel of light he's often experienced from a combination of DXM, cannabis, and N2O or from 5-MeO-DMT alone.

He suspects that the "fusion of dualities" that's often experienced is just nitrous allowing your conscious mind to watch yourself pass out. The blackness comes in from the sides and goes to a point just before one loses the ego. As for the tunnel of light, he has no idea; he supposes it's either something spiritual or just absolute dissociation.

Anyone ever taken a psychedelic before going in for a filling? How much of the nitrous experience is just your body begging you to let it have oxygen again, using whatever tools (such as psychedelic visuals) it has available at the time?


ECL

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Excelent discussion
	great question

[Akewstick]

Get a big balloon, breathe in and out of it for a minute, and you'll get all the effects of oxygen deprivation that accompanies doing nos from balloons. Then you can seperate what's the nos from what's air starving. In SWIM's experience, oxygen deprivaation makes him more wishy washy, carefree, and dopey, there is nothing resembling euphoria and it has no effects on visual or audio hallucinations. So the things SWIM does nos for, are actually the nos.

[INodHardOhYeah]

When you are at the dentist you receive a mixture of N20 and oxygen, this accounts for the difference SWIY has experienced.

[El Calico Loco]

Akewstick:

Good idea on the balloon. I had my test subject try this; he felt that it had all of the negative aspects of holding in N2O with none of the euphoria or flanging. It made him feel slow and out of it, like too much cannabis.

He hears what you're saying as far as hallucinations go - sucking in some nitrous while on a psychedelic sends him off to cartoon land for a little while even if he doesn't hold it very long.

However! There is a point each time (when holding or hyperventilating) where the cartoon scenes change from random weirdness based on whatever psychedelic he's on to a sort of weirdness that is the same each time - almost like it's pre-programmed regardless of other chemicals involved.

I suppose this could just be him delving into the collective unconscious or something, but I still wonder if lack of O2 or the presence of CO2 could have something to do with it.

He's also noticed that a cigarette smoked soon after finishing a balloon leads things in another, different sort of pre-programmed direction. Could that be the presence of CO at work?

Originally Posted by INodHardOhYeah

When you are at the dentist you receive a mixture of N20 and oxygen, this accounts for the difference SWIY has experienced.

Exactly - usually a 50/50 mix. If my test subject takes breaths of normal air in between his hits from the balloon (without holding), then his whippet experience is not too different from the dentist experience.

Would a higher-but-still-safe ratio at the dentist (say, 75/25) lead to the full fusion/dissociative experience? Or does that require a lack of O2? Or the presence of CO2?


ECL

[Akewstick]

Nitrous oxide has it's very own hallucinatory (actually a word?) effects, that's probably what the "pre-programmed" place is.

[Desertfox]

possibilies i have arrived to for what the light at the end of the tunnel may be is: the reliving of memories you have from birth and the light is the opening of your moms hooha, or may not be a reliving but a re-experiencing or a metaphorical visualization of your psychedelic "rebirth" or maybe the entrances to all different realities happen the same way we begin our lives in this one.
I am interested to hear what others think on the subject. i think i jsut got a forum idea.

[Beltane]

I've commented on this in this several nitrous posts.

SWIM's very considered opinion is that the high most nitrous users like results from the combination of oxygen deprivation _and_ Nos. One cannot, in SWIM's experience, enjoy a traditional nitrous buzz by breathing in and out on a clean balloon and relying on straight oxygen deprivation.

Also, because the dentist's nitrous rig is always pumping oxygen along with Nos, there's no oxygen deprivation.

A solution which seems like it could work is holding one's breath while using the dentist's rig. SWIM has tried this and it doesn't work. The reason is almost certainly that when hohlding one's breath like this, it's impossible to get/keep enough nitrous in one's system while simultaneously enjoying the effects of oxygen dep.

SWIM has experimented extensively and knows that, for him, the "nitrous high" that he enjoys comes from the oxygen dep combined with Nos. SWIM doesn't even both with Nos at the dentist's any more as it's so dissimlar it's not worth it.

A question that should follow this thread then is how much damage is being caused due to oxygen deprivation when using nitrous via whippets? Probably user dependant, but I'd say the vast majority of any brain damage.

- Beltane

Reputation Comments on this post:

Beltane is always very very helpful :)

[psyche]

SWIM usually tries to breath enough oxygen between whippets. Generally holding ones breath for one or two minute doesn't do much if at all damage to the brain. Ofcourse the problem is chronic deprivation as one's breathing is not accelerated between NOS balloons because of it's sedative properties. It is about five minutes after which there starts to develop irreversible damage to the brain, but some cells start dying even before that. First area to be damaged is the cerebral cortex, which is mostly responsible for our conscious functioning. So take your time to get oxidised between balloons and this shouldn't be a problem.

[Mega maniac]

I think its crazy to suggest that there is damage being done to the brain from holding your breath for 30-60 seconds. If there is any damage done atall (which i still seriously doubt) it is going to be a tiny tiny amount and to cells that regenerate in no time.

I mean what is the point ofthe question? Does holding your breath make NO dangerous? Should we infact stop kids from going to the swimming pool and having competitions with their mates to see who can stay under water for the longest?

No, The holding of the breath seems like a rediculous thing to associate with damage.

However, i dont doubt that oxygen deprivation plays a part in the NO high, when your hold your lungs full of NO there is no oxygen there, you are effectivly replacing the oxygen in your system, as beltane said, when the dentist combines oxygen with NO the effects are limited by the presence of the oxygen. So the absence of oxygen in the system most definatly plays a part in the high, but it does not cause damage.

[El Calico Loco]

Since the original post, Swim has come to believe even more strongly that oxygen deprivation does play a part. He doesn't think it's dangerous, however; your animal brain takes over and makes you pass out long before any damage could occur. It's only dangerous if one does something extremely foolish, like filling a trash bag with N2O and tying it around one's head. People have, and they are no longer with us.


ECL

[psyche]

I wasn't saying that couple of minutes of holding breath will make damage. I was talking more about five, before which you would pass out. I must admit that my statement about chronic deprivation might not be correct, I just figured that since breathing is very slow during and after holding ones breath for couple of minutes, it could be very easy to just trip for a minute and go on taking new balloons, never getting enough air to replace the breathing in/from balloon. Does that make any sense? You propably wouldn't fall unconcious(just a hunch) this way, but at least you would be chronically underoxidized. Could that be bad for you? Other than mild headaches etc.

[El Calico Loco]

I doubt there's any danger. No one's ever died from nitrous unless they were being foolish, like the aforementioned example of tying a bag around one's head, doing it standing up leading to a fall and a nasty head wound, pulling the N2O tank over on one's self and breaking a leg, etc. Swim has seen many a person do several whippets in a row until passing out, and none of them seem to have suffered any brain damage.

Worst damage I ever read about was some clown who did 72 whippets a day for months. He eventually fucked up his B12 supply enough to where he couldn't walk. He recovered quickly with medical treatment, IIRC.


ECL

[Beltane]

Indeed most deaths associated with nitrous come from wearing an inhaling mask or putting a balloon over the head. Also, death can occur opening a tank in an enclosed space such as a car.

SWIM, while not recommending it, has done upwards of 400 whippets per day over several months and also had some problems due to B12 deficiency. Once he was given a B12 shot. All other times he recovered just fine if more slowly. Again, not recommended.

If one is going to do lots of nitrous, it's possible to take B12 supplements.

- Beltane

[psyche]

They help to a certain degree, but I'd like to know how much of the damage they can prevent exactly. You make it sound like nearly all of it? Cannabis is known to have a neuroprotective effect, but I don't know much about the mechanism of this protection. Could it prevent possible damage from the B12 deficit?

[psyche]

It says on a finnish pharmacology textbook (available online) that only 0,004% of N2O is etabolised, so could one get high on one balloon several times by breathing out to a balloon after huffing another N2O balloon, and then breathing both of those balloons etc. Ofcourse it'll get weaker... Or does nitrous leave the body in urine, shit, sweating or some other way? SWIM'd try this is he only wouldn't have just used all the the remainings...

[El Calico Loco]

Hm. If that's true, then this could work. It would be best to get as little oxygen as possible with the nitrous, because that will get converted to CO2; on the other hand, there's probably CO2 coming out with every breath from previous inhalations anyway.

Just tell your subjects to remember to breathe real air once in a while. *smirk*


ECL

[idaknown]

Originally Posted by El Calico Loco

Akewstick:

Exactly - usually a 50/50 mix. If my test subject takes breaths of normal air in between his hits from the balloon (without holding), then his whippet experience is not too different from the dentist experience.

Would a higher-but-still-safe ratio at the dentist (say, 75/25) lead to the full fusion/dissociative experience? Or does that require a lack of O2? Or the presence of CO2?


ECL

Actually the dentist gives you oxygen first usually 3 minutes then increases the nitrous /oxygen mix customarily to 70/30. the 'ozzie' level is 80/20 used during short periods and painful proceedures. afterward the nitrous is lowered and you are on oxygen for a few minutes. occaisionally, you can inhale slow and deeply-via the nasal cannula-and hold the breath,, then exhale quickly via mouth.

[El Calico Loco]

Really? Do they have separate canisters for oxygen and nitrous? I remember reading that 50/50 nitronox was the most common, but I can't remember where, and that's really all I know about it.


ECL

[idaknown]

yes, youll see a green tank (oxygen) and blue (nitrous) The 50/50 mix is used mostly for pregnancy right b4 contractions, and acute breakthru pain for people w chronic pain . Thats also why at the dentist you arent suddenly 'high' when given nitrous,,,,its titrated to the patients needs, level of discomfort etc however standard dentistry is 70/30 again 30 being oxygen not 'air' )

[El Calico Loco]

Interesting. Upon reflection, Swim tells me that there have been times when the dentist asked, "Are you feeling it?" and he replied that he was not, and the dentist increased something. He thought it was just the airflow, but perhaps it was the ratio.


ECL

[Stephenwolf]

If any of the nitrous effects were from oxygen deprivation then wouldn't helium cause intoxication similar?

[El Calico Loco]

I imagine it would cause the same kind of stupor if held for long enough, but so would air. It wouldn't have any of the euphoria or visuals, I would think, unless we're talking about the kind of visuals solvent users get from their asphyxiation.

I'm more interested in how nitrous-with-plenty-of-oxygen differs from nitrous-without-oxygen.


ECL