Side effects - Help, very bad marijuana experience with long lasting side effects *long*

[mert2012]

Perhaps anyone who has gone through something similiar would be able to help, give advice, or simply comment. SWIM just feels the need to discuss this.

*Sorry about the length, SWIM felt it would be beneficial for him to be detailed so people understand the experience, so please bear with me*


First SWIM will give a little bit of background info on himself. He has been smoking weed everyday for nearly 2 years, usually anywhere from 0.5-2 grams daily. SWIM was basically stoned 24/7. Never before has pot had this type of effect on him and it was in fact one of the most familiar and natural things to him. There were many times when he and a few friends had smoked a half ounce or more between them in one night. SWIM's health is fine (minus some lung problems which lead to the purchase of a vaporizer) and never had any mental issues besides being imaginative and 'smart'. He has tried a few psychedelics namely DXM, shrooms and salvia. All were good except for his last 20x salvia+pot (about 8 months before the following) which rocketed him into another reality of some sort of infinite time loop of hellish pre-birth existence where his ego was no more. It was the most Terrifying, perception shattering, intensely real thing to happen to him in his life, however he eventually got over it somewhat after a month or so. When the following freakout happened to him he was somewhat stressed due to being arrested about 6 weeks prior for possession during a raid on a pot cafe, worrying about a bone tumor (he now knows its benign) on his ankle, having to move to another city soon, and from the aforementioned salvia trip.

This happened about 6 months ago:
SWIM had recently acquired a vaporizer and was loving it. After a normal, bedtime session while browsing the internet, he came across some information which pointed at a possibility of cancer in SWIM's ankle. After reading this, he experienced his first ever panic attack, though he did not know it at the time. Perception became lucid, a coloured 'static' enveloped his vision, heart started beating like crazy, and his thoughts started to get out of control. Immediately he staggered to his bed, collapsed and went to sleep. The next day he was more or less fine and did not experience any strange side effects from smoking again, though he was suffering some anxiety (who wouldn't if they thought they might have cancer). After speaking to a few friends about it who had no idea that such a thing could happen, SWIM disregarded it and continued with his daily life.

Roughly 2 weeks later, SWIM was getting ready for work after school and smoked with his friend out of the vaporizer. The friend backed out after SWIM had packed a rather large vaporizer bowl. Being the stoner that he was, SWIM felt that he had to finish it rather then let it go to waste. He packed up and went to the washroom. Then shit hit the fan. SWIM suddenly started experiencing the same symptoms as he had during his first panic attack, but more intense. Thoughts grew extremely existential and it felt like his ego was being 'stretched' to encompass all being. Perception became extremely lucid, vision was again covered by a coloured static. His body experienced a panic attack, but the mental aspect was far more terrifying and uncomfortable. SWIM finds it extremely difficult to describe such a sensation, but it felt as if everything was TOO real, as if every moment that will ever happen and has ever happened was compressed into the present. SWIM has heard this called 'pulses' before and indeed that would be a good way to describe it. He was extremely agitated and felt trapped and worst of all completely alone. He tried to calm himself down but was unsuccessful. All he succeeded in doing was coping with the incredible fear, constant pulses and distorted vision enough to get his things, say bye to his friend and get to work. He worked at a Starbucks at the time and was fortunate enough to get the job of making the drinks themselves that shift. The entire shift and rest of the day he remained in that state, grounded enough in reality that he could still somewhat function physically, though mentally he was a mess. These feeling of complete derealization and panic/fear have remained ever since, though the impaired 'static' vision subsided after that day and only returned periodically. He immediately quit smoking weed after that day and his time was occupied with coping with his own existence. During the first couple of weeks it got so bad at times that he would start shaking from fear and feelings of complete helplessness. Often the pulses he would sometimes experience, along with the uncertainty and fear, would get to points of intensity that SWIM truly (for the first time in his life) contemplated suicide, simply as a means to make it stop. His mind could not come to terms with reality.

After about a month he was feeling slightly better one day and decided to try smoking once more with a couple of friends. The result was a complete mental trip, his body did not feel like his own, and he felt he was receding into his own mind. He vividly remembered a salvia trip and felt as this was reaffirming the salvia view of reality. His derealization returned/strengthened (though it had never really left) and after that he did not get truly stoned again.

Since then SWIM has gradually been recovering, although he has never been able to return to his old state of mind. He's learned to cope with existential thoughts and rarely feels dissociated / derealization. SWIM tries to look at reality optimistically and tries to see the picture of reality painted by salvia and later weed to be fictional. He reads alot now and wishes to attain some much needed inner peace.

SWIM realizes that this is extremely long, much longer than the single paragraph that was intended, however that’s what Dexedrine will do. Who else has experienced something like this, how have you coped with it? Did you ever get better, and have you been able to enjoy psychedelics or at least pot once again? Lastly, why could this happen?

Thank you to whoever took the time to read that monster! And thank you for any replies, they are all helpful.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Well described and congrats for using the third person correctly

[Lehendakari]

Welcome to the forum. First of all I would like to sympathize with swim's situation and remember him that people at this forum can and always will help him.

Cannabis is well known to trigger mental conditions such as schizofrenia and others. Depersonalization and derealization are also common mental illnesses trigged by MJ, along with HPPD.

I recommend swim to surf the internet searching info about depersonalizaton/derealization, swim will see how many people developed their condition after smoking for the very first time pot.

I'm no doctor and don't know how to help swim, but I would suggest swim lookin for info regarding melatonin supplementation. Anecdotal evidence suggest that it might be helpfull minimizing cannabis abuse problems.

Cannabis is overall a safe drug but people start abusing it at a very young age, when no drug should be taken. When you're a teen your body and mind is developing and it is more sensitive to anything, enviroment, love, hate, learning and also drugs and drug-induced behaviour

[Each Hit]

it sounds like most of this stemmed from the difficult salvia trip, which seems to have left a pretty long-lasting impression on swiy's psyche. whether it triggered some latent psychological condition is beyond swim's scope and should be left to medical professionals (if anyone). odds are that they would encourage swiy to stop using any such "triggers" as weed and salvia. swim would also encourage this, at least for a short while. perhaps swiy is trying to integrate a difficult experience and using a drug that was used during the difficult experience might create a sort of pavlovian "flashback" due to some subconscious psychological association. maybe this could go away with time, maybe not.

when swim was younger, he experienced a period when marijuana was simply unpleasant for similar, but not identical, reasons. basically, he was using a lot of drugs at the time, and marijuana mostly just made him anxious and paranoid. he stopped smoking it for almost a year before deciding to give it another shot. now, swim is back to smoking 3 to 5 times daily (minus some days off). whether these symptoms disappeared over time or swim just learned to cope with them, they are no longer a problem for him. he hopes the same will be true for swiy.

[Bajeda]

Swiy may want to see a trustable mental healthcare professional to evaluate his symptoms and possibly find out what's causing the chronic negative effects. Swiy wouldn't want to mess around with psychedelics if he was developing schizophrenia or mental illness of any kind, though entactogens may be fine depending on what is causing swiy's problem. Pure MDMA could possibly help swiy discover what is causing the problem if it is a psychological reaction to the intense expeirences, or at least help him sort things through. Still, I wouldn't really advice any substance abuse at all until swiy can consult a professional and find out what his is suffering from.

[bewilderment]

It could certainly be HPPD caused by the salvia in which case, wikipedia has this to say about the condition regarding treatment:

"HPPD ceases on its own in many cases. It is generally advised that the person discontinues all drugs (even those that may not appear to be related to HPPD). There are indications that continued drug use can worsen the condition. The recovery may take considerable time (from several months to several years) and may either be gradual or sudden.

There is currently no known cure of HPPD, however, some medications such as benzodiazepines such as Valium or Xanax, and particularly the anticonvulsant drug clonazepam/Klonopin appear to be helpful. People with HPPD can learn to habituate to the condition, and are able to lead otherwise normal lives.

Some medications are contraindicated for the use of HPPD, and the most reported substance is the atypical (especially antipsychotics Risperidone). [4] Risperidone is reported to worsen symptoms of HPPD during the drug's duration in some people. [5] Treatment of HPPD should, if possible, be undertaken by a psychiatrist with experience in treating the disorder."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HPPD

It's also quite possible that swiy triggered some latent mental disorder. Do any of swiy's relatives have problems with such?

Marijuana can really be a powerful psychedelic. It can be easy to forget this when one has become accustomed to smoking regularly since tolerance does away with many of the more powerful effects.

Swim has never experienced HPPD, but the first few times she ever smoked cannabis (she had not done hallucinogens before, by the way...the only previous drug use was alcohol and various prescription meds mostly opiates and benzos) she completely tripped out...she would lose all touch with reality and sometimes felt like she was an alien on another planet because Earth just seemed completely foreign. She would even be unable to tell time because she had no idea what those numbers meant. She would also become extremely paranoid and if she was smoking with others she would need to be left alone...she recalls once crawling under a bed and staying there for hours because people were just freaking her out, and when they ate she had someone slip a plate under the bed.

But, she wouldn't feel strange after all the effects wore off. She kept smoking though because once the intensity began to wear off she would have a really great time. Eventually, things began to be normal and she doesn't have such strange reaction to marijuana and smoked daily for a couple of years. Still, if it's been awhile and her tolerance is gone then she can sometimes get a bit weirded out. But swim is also considered "mentally ill" and has been considered such since around the age of 13.

I'm just sharing this as a reminder that marijuana can be a strong drug on it's own. It's quite conceivable that smoking is either causing an intensification of the HPPD symptoms or symptoms of some sort of mental illness. Depersonalization disorder seems like it could fit the symptoms, some details are found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalization_disorder
It may also be some other dissociative disorder or maybe a thought disorder.

It wouldn't hurt to sit down with a counselor or psychologist to discuss the issue. Swim prefers not to be on medication for her illness because she believes that although it may help in the short-term, it doesn't in the long-term and she'd rather find other ways of coping without having to deal with rebound symptoms she experiences whenever she quits medication...it does make things more difficult but this is what she prefers doing. I'd suggest trying counseling on it's own at first although pretty much every counselor or psychologist will tell swiy to begin medication because that's just what they do. And, swiy may end up needing medication, but since swiy is coping a bit better now then he may find all the help he needs just being able to talk to a good therapist.

That's the key, it has to be a good therapist...the first 5 or 6 therapists swim ever saw in her life didn't help swim at all. They just wasted time and money. This lead her to believe that therapy was useless, but she later found that a good psychologist can do wonders. Also look into different types of therapists and see which ones may be best for swiy. Swim had some luck with cognitive-behavioral therapy awhile back and thinks it's rather helpful.

Good luck!

Reputation Comments on this post:

Very Helpful

[mert2012]

Thanks for all the replies.

Lehendakari:

I've looked into all of these disorders, and they all seem possible. However, SWIM would prefer not to take supplements in order to aleviate this problem and would prefer dealing with it instead. Also, the symptoms have far dimished especially in the past 2 months, however existance in itself is as fucked up and inexplainable as always and I still don't feel comfortable enough to get stoned or try any psychedelics again. Isn't that simply the bane of us humans though?

Each_Hit:

I am thinking that salvia played a big part in this incident. Coincidently SWIM smoked the salvia in his basement, and also smoked in his basement during this incident. However, SWIM doesn't feel this is of much consequence since he didn't freak out til after he had left the basement, and that was his regular everyday smoking spot (along with his backyard =) ). He has experienced minor salvia flashbacks in the past though, however he is unsure if they are flashbacks or simply getting caught up in thinking about the trip since the trip was so beyond this reality that to literally trip again even for an instant would mean to lose his body. Hopefully pot becomes enjoyable again sometime in the future..

Bajeda:

SWIM hopes its not mental illness as he was fine prior to the incident minus some social anxiety but who knows. He plans to see a mental health professional sometime in the future but in his current situation it would be rather inconvenient and he hopes he will get better on his own.

Bewilderment:

Yes I have some inclination that it is HPPD. Firstly SWIM has never had that coloured tv static really go away, however it was prominent before he freaked out too (it just became overpowering during the panic attack). Its more visible against backgrounds like walls, especially in the dark and at other times barely noticable. SWIM thinks this part of his possible HPPD is just a byproduct of smoking so much weed. If it is some sort of mental illness he would prefer to take your route as well and try to cope with it himself rather then with meds.

[Bajeda]

Originally Posted by mert2012

SWIM thinks this part of his possible HPPD is just a byproduct of smoking so much weed. If it is some sort of mental illness he would prefer to take your route as well and try to cope with it himself rather then with meds.

It seems like it would be more likely that if it was HPPD it was caused by the salvia experiences and made worse by the marijuana rather than caused by the weed, unless that was some extremely dank chronic swiy got and smoked too much of with zero tolerance (even then, its hard I believe).

If it is a mental illness I would agree with staying away from meds, but doesn't mean swiy can't seek treatment for it. Lots of people visit the hospital for cannabis related treatment on their own just for acute effects. Swiy is getting chronic effects from marijuana/salvia that seem to return intensified after subsequent ingestion of psychoactive substances. So while it would be inconvenient to see a healthcare professional, it would also be inconvenient for swiy to never be able to do psychedelic drugs or marijuana ever again.

[mert2012]

Damn forgot to add that my family has no history of any mental illness as far as I know. Is there a way to edit my posts?

[Powder_Reality]

SWIM thinks that you should check out these threads, as they are related to the subject. SWIM suffered from HPPD for about a year, and knows how unpleasant derealization and depersonalization can be, but it does usually get less severe with time. SWIM has also found that marijuana can increase HPPD symptoms, although he still uses it to help cure his insomnia (the side effects from prescription sleeping meds made SWIM feel much worse than marijuana ever did).

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20036

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20456

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20457

SWIM hopes this information helps.

[mert2012]

Thanks Powder, all those posts were informative. By the looks of it, sounds very much like its HPPD..

SWIM has been seeing floaters all the time, and now that I think about it, it started sometime after my salvia trip.
SWIM has also been seeing Pareidolias, however not recently, they were more of a childhood thing..
Imagistic Phosphenes are also sometimes present, not too noticeable however.
The aforementioned static vision is defenitly the most prominent symptom along with the floaters.
Depersonalization/Dissociation also seem to fit nicely into HPPD. Who knows though its hard to say..

As for seeing a mental health professional, its defenitly something I plan to do in the future.

[purplehaze]

After having read your post, I suggest that you go to a doctor and consult him about your "panic attack's". With panic attack's, anxiety, depression, and stress the common medication prescribed is a ssri (ie. prozac) or ssnri (ie. effexor) with xanax or valium or some sort of benzodiazapine. Most likley the doctor will not put you on xanax or valium or any benzo for that matter your first trip. From swim's experience with panic attack's the best medication is to take a xanax, but I would not try to make it a everyday habbit because after you get better your gonna have a worse problem which is addiction to xanax which can be awfull, withdrawls go as far as seizure's etc.. Swim suggest if possible get a .5mg xanax (peach football shaped) from a friend or relative or MD is the best way and see if that doesn't help your panic attack's. A salvia trip can be very serious and seem extremely real and this could have triggared a reaction with your daily stress to cause you to have panic attack's. Btw in no way am I a doctor nor do I know what's going on in your life so if you have alot of daily stress and responsibility that seem's overwhelming I would start with a therapist.

[Powder_Reality]

From SWIM's experience most doctors won't give prescribe benzodiazepines for anxiety disorders, especially if SWIY is younger looking. They'll usually just prescribe an SSRI or an SSNRI like PurpleHaze said.

SWIM suffered from anxiety attacks and paid a visit to his doctor in hopes of getting a few benzos to help calm him down when he needed it. He described his symptoms thoroughly, but didn't mention that he specifically wanted benzos out of fear of his doctor thinking he was just some pill junky looking for a fix. His doctor mentioned all the kinds of meds that he could prescribe, including benzodiazepines, but said that he didn't like prescribing them because they were habit-forming. In the end he gave SWIM a prescription for Effexor, which SWIM promptly through in the garbage (SWIM's already had to go through all the side effects associated with antidepressants).

SWIM just used breathing exercises whenever he felt that a panic attack was coming over him. Here's a copy+paste of that exercise from a different thread SWIM posted:

How to Stop a Panic Attack

In SWIM’s experience, the best way to calm yourself down during a panic attack is practice this exercise:

When you sense that a panic attack is coming over you, stop what you’re doing and sit down. Close your eyes, exhale all the air in your lungs and slowly inhale through your nose. While you are inhaling through your nose, visualize your lungs filling up with air. When your lungs are full, hold your breath for a couple seconds. Slightly open the middle of your lips and slowly exhale through your mouth as if you were blowing through a straw. While you are exhaling, visualize your lungs exhaling all the air. Repeat as necessary. By visualizing your lungs inhaling and exhaling, you are able to distract your mind from the panic attack and concentrate on something else. If you are having racing and repetitive thoughts, sternly say “STOP!”, and start to calm yourself down with reassuring comments, such as “This is only a panic attack. It will end soon, and it won’t hurt me.” If your heart is rapidly beating and you fear a heart attack, remind yourself, “This is only a panic attack. My heart is beating fast because I am worrying, and by worrying about it, my heart is only going to beat faster.” Saying “STOP!” to yourself helps to break the cycle of repetitive thoughts and gives you a chance to replace the negative thoughts with reassuring thoughts.
After you have calmed yourself down, you should do something that you find relaxing, such as watching TV, listening to calming music, etc.

The original thread can be found at: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20985

[howlongisthenight]

Has this experience left swiy with disdain for all drugs? If swiy's symptoms can be diagnosed and treated, why not accept the treatment? Pharmacuticals go through so much research and testing, unlike many drugs on this forum, one can say that they are fairly safe. I know its probably a very complicated situation....and dealing with it on your own may be the best method, but how is it effecting your daily life? Even if it will go away in the long term, is a safe treatment in the short term not something you would look into? I wish you the best of luck.

[wellhelm]

Originally Posted by howlongisthenight

Has this experience left swiy with disdain for all drugs? If swiy's symptoms can be diagnosed and treated, why not accept the treatment? Pharmacuticals go through so much research and testing, unlike many drugs on this forum, one can say that they are fairly safe. I know its probably a very complicated situation....and dealing with it on your own may be the best method, but how is it effecting your daily life? Even if it will go away in the long term, is a safe treatment in the short term not something you would look into? I wish you the best of luck.

Swim thinks side effects of some pharmacuticals can be just as bad and often worse than some of the drugs on this forum.

[bewilderment]

Originally Posted by howlongisthenight

Has this experience left swiy with disdain for all drugs? If swiy's symptoms can be diagnosed and treated, why not accept the treatment? Pharmacuticals go through so much research and testing, unlike many drugs on this forum, one can say that they are fairly safe.

Actually this is pretty far from the truth. Pharmaceutical, especially psychiatric medication, can have some rather hefty negative consequences. They're pretty nasty drugs. I discuss this a bit in two posts I made on this thread: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...028#post200028

Swim's "mental illness" affects her life to a pretty significant degree and she used psychiatric meds for most of her adolescent and adult life. She has now been off of such for over a year (she has taken breaks before, but she considers this break to be "for good") and now realizes that while the meds did have a few positive effects, overall they made things quite a bit worse. I wouldn't suggest such medication to anyone unless things are extremely bad such as in cases where one is acutely suicidal --meaning that they already have a plan and are prepared to take action if something doesn't change-- or if they are very prone towards violence or maybe if they were to lose all touch with reality. Oh, how swim wishes it were as simple as taking a pill that makes everything better.

Psychiatric meds are most definitely not harmless as the Big Pharm companies would have everyone believe. They're just drug-pushers like your local crack dealer is and they have a tendency to distort and/or hide much of the information about the negative consequences of their product.

[MrG]

Originally Posted by bewilderment

Actually this is pretty far from the truth.

Hugely far from the truth. SWIY shouldn't believe that old chestnut. Just cos it's pharma it has little bearing on its safety. Just ask the first person you find with shrunken arms (Thalidomide victims).

Whilst SWIM has used the weed for many many many years, he is well aware of its propensity for potentially aggravating mental problems. These mental problems may well actually be linked to your physical wellbeing rather than being some sort of long term psychosis.

E.G. Many people experience a period in their lives of anxiety and panic attacks, it is often more common during your late teens and through your twenties.

Why a lot a people manage to reduce or eliminate this problem after they reach thirty may simply be a case of being more interested in their own physical wellness and that they are more likely to take an active role in getting fit, getting their teeth fixed, eating healthily etc.

Yes I know this isn't the case for all people as there are many different causes of mental illness, but here is an example of how your physical state can directly affect your mental state:

SWIM starts to feel heightened levels of anxiety, stronger and stronger waves of panic wash over him, building throughout the day, mentally he keeps trying to hold himself together and he fights to remain focused on objective thought. His heart rate becomes faster, he feels that familiar cold prickly sensation on the back of his neck, the blood drains from his face and he feels nauseous, weak. He staggers to the bathroom, he is terrified that he is losing his mind, terrified of dying, terrified of not dying. Caught in a vicious mental loop that seems to be suffocating him, he vomits into the toilet, no sooner has he emptied his stomach he spins round, drops his pants and explosively empties his bowels (sorry to be so graphic!). He sits there, weak, panting, his face and back slick with sweat, the panic subsides. He calms. His breathing returns to normal, heart rate normal, thoughts . . . .normal.

SWIM had food poisoning.

That is just an example of a brief episode. What SWIY is experiencing may have been triggered by the weed, or it may have developed anyway. That's the trouble with this whole chicken and egg situation.

SWIY should lay off the substances for a few weeks, eat properly, get some excercise, and generally be aware of his physical wellbeing.

Once he has acheived a physical baseline *then* he can gauge whether or not he is likely to need pharma solutions to his mental problems.

Otherwise he risks being "pigeon-holed" by some psych who is looking at a nice regular insurance check coming to him over the next x number of years as he treats SWIY with numerous and often pointless meds.

BTW hypnotherapy can help with panic attacks. A skilled therapist can give you a mental tool to help alleviate the symptoms, e.g. SWIM could squeeze his left arm with his right hand and it was a trigger to cause waves of relaxation to wash over him. He found that often, just knowing he had it there at his disposal prevented attacks.

[howlongisthenight]

Just cos it's pharma it has little bearing on its safety. Just ask the first person you find with shrunken arms (Thalidomide victims)

Effected 17 US born children....I am fairly confident the next person I find with shruken arms will not be a Thalidomide victim. Times have changed a little since the 50s. Picking out anamolies to support a point isn't that hard when compared to the vast number of FDA approved drugs that do not cause deformaties.

[mert2012]

SWIM told me,

"Sorry to be resurrecting old threads here but I never got a chance to thank you guys for your replies and give you an update. It's been about a year and a half since the incidient and almost a year ago I started smoking pot regularly. I don't know if I have just learned to cope alot better or if my problems are gone. Anxiety still remains an issue however its far more managable. I did try to get into shape and for a month I lived a good lifestyle which helped me get back to baseline. For anyone in a similiar situation, exercise definitely helps and it is something I plan to incoropate into my everyday life (damn if only I wasn't so lazy). Now I'm back to my old smokey ways Have yet to try a psychedelic since my salvia trip though...maybe its time for some shrooms "