methadone advice

[lysergic25]

i am new to this forum but certainly not new to the world psychoactives. i have a deep concern of the misleading and lack of information concerning methadone treatment. i know a lot of people who think, in the despair of crippling opioid dependence, that methadone is a good idea. however swim wants to inform others of the dangers of methadone maintanence so they may not go through what he has gone through and seen many of their friends go through. when someone wakes up so sick they want to kill themselves day after day, spends 4-8 hours trying to find something and anothoer 4 hours trying to get money to get it, it seems like a great idea to enter a methadone program because you know you have it everyday, you don't have to worry about being sick or not finding dope or not having money to get it or geting busted, etc. but consider this. first of all, if you have a heavy enough habit that you need a maintanance dose of an opiate, you can't get high off methadone. you get nods but no euphoria. also, most methadone has an antagonist in it which prevents the user from feeling the effects of other opiates. however, even though you cannot feel another opiate you can still overdose by taking one with methadone. also, the inability to get high from opiates often leads the user to using other drugs to substitute. swim knows a LOT of people who became xanax junkies while on methadone and that is very dangerous because the two drugs potentiate each other, make the effects of each stronger and last longer. they often develop benzo addictions much worse than the opiate problem that led them to methadone in the first place. those who don't end up on a steady diet of downers usually turn to cocain and crack. this is dangerous because the mixing od stimulants and depressants can easily leasd to cardiac failure. swim and many people they know never even tried cocain or crack until getting on methadone. again this new habit becomes worse than the original opiate problem. in this new habit of benzos or coke, one often sells their take-home dose of methadone to buy the other drug of their choice. swim has, to their incredible sorrow and regret, caused two people to die from methadone overdoses, one being a very close friend. it is very difficult for a casual drug user to titrate a safe and effective dose of methadone. one person may not feel 50mg at all while another may die from 20mg. finally, methadone withdrawl is the WORST. it is much more intense and much longer duration. even with a proper tapering of dosage over time a user with feel it. SWIM kicked methadone a few years ago, only having been on it for 5 months. he was sicker than he had ever been in his life for 4 months. after that his headaches, stomache pains, and diareah lasted 2 years. swim had succesfully kicked morphine, oxycodone, heroin, opium, benzos, fentanyl, hydrocodone, and alcohol on his own several times without much trouble and discomfort. the methadone kicked his ass bad. and one other thing...methadone makes you stupid. of course any opiate will make you act stupid in high doses over periods of time, but methadone makes you act much worse. nodding, drooling, picking scabs, complete loss of memory and coordination, wild mood swings, and overall inability to think and function. this, at least was SWIM's experiences with himself and many people he knew. so please, if you think you need help, find it somewhere outside a methadone clinic. SWIM has heard nothing but good things about bupernorphine. and id anyone you know, such as SWIY, is trying to cop a buzz, find it elsewhere from methadone. the risks are much too high and and the effects, if any, are definitely not worth it.

Reputation Comments on this post:

some of this is not factual- you are entitled to share your experience/opinion, but please check facts- ie. antagonists ...

[mickenator]

Swim spent 12 years thereself on a methadone course and finally managed to kick the habit whilst in jail but swil is right to go on methadone is risky, the addiction to the stuff and then the subsequent withdrawl if you happen to get kicked of it or mess up is nightmarish. Swim was seriously ill for 6 weeks and then it was another 2 months before swim finally got there act together. Swim has been using heroin for awhile now and manged to keep it to the weeekend, but even if swim got seriously back into the stuff swim would not go back on a methadone course, swim would rather do there withdrawl. Swims advice for anyone looking to go on a treatment program then look for other alternatives that do not have the serious addiction/withdrwal problems.

[Wflash]

Don't know you know. SWIM's been on the kryptonite for over five years now. And although he is now using other opiates as well two or three times a week (never noticed any problem with other opiates working while on meth - despite having taken the daily dose in the morning), the methadone prevented him from losing his life in terms of job, home, debts etc. and has allowed him to keep things together, knowing that he won't get sick on any given day.

I guess there's no one rule for everyone, but SWIM's not looking forward to the day he tries to come off it.

If he ever does.

[lysergic25]

wello, methadone does work for some, but it many cases it causes more problems. not all methadone contains naltexone (the opiate blocker). dolophine is one of them. methadose is more commonly used in clinics and it does contain the blocker. i'm glad that it is working for SWIY. SWIM and many of his local peers aren't so lucky.

[acolon_5]

Wflash said it "I guess there's no one rule for everyone, but SWIM's not looking forward to the day he tries to come off it"

When I was in a meth clinic there were people in there that had been on methadone for over 10 years....10 years! There are much better ways to quit, that is for sure. I myself was never sicker than I was when I came off methadone.... I went back to an H habit just so I could w/d off of H rather than the meth.... A heroin habit is 100x easier to kick than a meth habit...it is unreal how LONG the w/d's last from methadone, months at the least. Many rehabs don't take methadone patients for that very reason, in fact I was TOLD by a rehab that my best option was to get off the methadone, back on the heroin and then they would detox me off of the heroin. It baffels me that more is not being done to try and come up with better treatments. Methadone, a Nazi drug from WWII is the best they can come up with? A drug that makes a person nod so hard that they can't drive, or go to school, or function. A drug that a clinic knows will keep you coming back for more, every day, for years to come? Damnit! Why is there not more, every month there is a new and improved sleeping pill that takes tens of millions of $ in R&D and marketing to put on the market but they come up with a new opiate treatment once in 40-50 years......DAMNIT, gimme a break.

However, I am quite pleased with the new bupe treatment option that came out a few years ago.

Bupe is the way to go. I am a strong advocate for buprenorphine treament...it worked for me and I have seen it work for 3 of my other friends who were worse off on the heroin than I was. The only drawback is that they do not make anything less than 2mg pills. At the end of my bupe treatment I was having to cut up the two mg pill into halves and then into fourths, as coming off of 2mgs to nothing was a little harsh.

(Having discussed this with the moderator at the time, the discussion of legally perscribed methadone does not constitute self-incrimination...if this has changed, please contact me and I will fix this post.)

Thank you.

[Forthesevenlakes]

Actually, there are 0.2 mg tablets of buprenorphine that SWIM has seen. Perhaps not available in the US or through most clinics, but they do exist.

[Wflash]

SWIM still says meth can work for some. If your nodding out on it you're on way too high a dose for maintaining your habit.

But SWIM fully accept it's a nightmare to come off. Seems you've got to reduce your dose very slowly over a long time.

[codybear]

methadone can work for some people, however i disagree that there is any opiate blockers added to methadone. If that was the case, folks would be pretty ill as naltrexone will make you vomit when opiates are ingested. A bit contradictory to put an opiate blocker into a medication which is totally opiate based i should know i work with people who are prescribed it!

Many of which still use heroin from time to time. But Methadone can help if you really want to turn your life around

[Wflash]

Cultural confusion mucker.

From discussions I've had on other threads it seems like meth west-side of the Atlantic is made to a different recipe to that on this island.

[staphinfection]

If the shoe fits wear it. For SWIM, Methadone fits, but only the Dolophine(Roxane brand) and not the generic Methadose. Not only does Methadone control SWIM's pain, it also stabilizes SWIM's mood and rids SWIM of social anxiety(for the most part).

But, Methadone is NOT for everyone, so please please be careful with what SWIY puts into their body. Please don't be another statistic that causes 20/20 to run stupid shows called "one pill can kill" and other such nonsense. BE SAFE and be happy!

[Bicarbonate]

Methadone is a very useful drug. For myself it has saved me from ending up in prison. I used to use heroin on a regular basis. I'd constantly have to come up with money to support my habit, especially since heroin has a short half life. This led me to Theft and Robbery. I was absolutely out of my mind, and I had no control over myself, all I knew was that I didn't want to feel that horrible feeling of withdrawal even if it meant breaking the law. As most people who break the law do, I ended up busted and facing seven years in the penitentiary. I ended up being sentenced to community control, 5 years on probation. This meant I would be out in the real world, subjected to the same temptations I had such a hard time resisting. I passed me first drug test but as soon as I got out of the PO office I was on the hunt for some dope. This was such a nerve racking experience because I couldn’t stop before my next Probation meeting. I didn’t get tested that time but I had to do something to prevent that sort of anxiety, prevent myself from using illicit substances. That when I turned to methadone. Now I was familiar with methadone since I had abused it in prior years. But it was perfectly legal and I wouldn’t have to worry about spending years behind bars. So my conclusion is, so there is a longer duration of withdrawal to methadone. In my experience the duration of methadone withdrawal is longer than but not as intense as heroin. I would take longer weaker withdrawal over the shorter hellacious withdrawal of heroin, and stay free of legal matters. I would take a longer withdrawal over having to withdrawal almost every six hours. With methadone you can go almost two days before any signs of withdraw appear. But everyone is different. You weigh the risks for yourself

[4threich101]

very good drug for pain i take 120mgs a day

[WILDMANZ]

I take 70 mgs aday for pain.

[moda00]

OP is pretty old, but I'll take the bait.

First- comments like "methadone makes you stupid," it makes you nod out and unable to function?? If this is the case, one is not on an accurately measured, stable maintenance dose. Yes, too much of any opiate type drug will have these effects- but mmt does not if you don't take too much. Studies tend to back up that functionality increases for most people when transitioned to stable mmt- but of course this is not true for everyone.

Second- that it is a "worse" addiction- well, how so? Your body may be "more" addicted over a longer time using any addictive substance, and the long half-life of methadone means that one needs to taper more slowly to get off it- but to swim, the worst parts of addiction were the stealing, the lying, the utter despair, the confusion and lack of control, and the debt, and the ups and downs, and wanting to die, and knowing she could be out on the streets or locked up in jail any and every day. Methadone is still a dependence on opiates, no one is arguing with that, but as long as one is getting those opiates legally and regularly, the majority of side effects, risks, and hazards of an opiate dependence diminish (see the archive article I added recently, a study about measures of health and how they are affected by MMT- almost all measures of physical, mental, social health were improved upon transitioning from heroin dependence to MMT) In addition, studies aside, on a personal level, swim tried to commit suicide multiple times during her acute addiction, and was diagnosed with multiple psychiatric disorders while using. The mmt has helped her get sober and the suicidal thoughts, wild mood swings, and other psychiatric symptoms were entirely obliterated- demonstrating that these symptoms were in fact not inherent to her brain chemistry, but induced by the havoc she wreaked on her body through the abuse of huge amounts of hard drugs over a period of time. She also remembers reading that methadone has also been shown to be a stabilizing factor in those with true pre-existing mental illness and dual diagnoses, especially addiction combined with mild to moderate depression (will try to find the source and edit it in and/or add to archives..)

Third- that is really sad that swiy shared their methadone and feels partially responsible for the death of friends, but it should be clear to responsible adults that sharing potent prescription meds with others is asking for trouble. Whether giving someone heroin, methadone, oxys, whatever; one still bears this risk. In addition, one can overdose quite unintentionally from questionably pure street products o shared medications, but if one is taking only their own meds in the correct doses, this is unlikely. One is generally warned about possible interactions, and so if they choose to take additional depressant meds like benzodiazepines, or choose to "double up" on their methadone doses to try and get high, they are assuming this risk.

Swim means in no way to discount swiy's personal experience with methadone- that is swiy's truth and cannot be disputed. However, to present it as an absolute truth and insinuate that swiy's personal feelings are the final word on methadone in general, or methadone as a treatment option in others' experience, is somewhat presumptuous. Everyone will have their own opinions, and their own response to different drugs and medicines. If abstinence can be attained, that seems to be ideal. But if it cannot, harm minimization is the way to go IMHO. (Same as the general concept of the drug war- even if they believe that 100% abstinence is the ideal, it still makes no sense not to make accurate resources available so that people can make informed decisions and do what works for them, since one person or group's viewpoint or theory on what is ideal does not translate into reality, and the reality is that humans always have and always will experiment with altering their consciousness.) So in the context of opioid dependence, if one cannot entirely get off opioids, does it not make sense to offer them opioid maintenance in an environment which prevents a majority of the problems that come with the use and addiction to street drugs? Most methadone clinics require a certain time frame of use/abuse and/or quantitative and qualitative measures of addiction, and/or a history of failure with other treatments such as abstinence-based inpatient, outpatient, and/or suboxone/buprenorphine before embarking on methadone maintenance in a long term context. Swim herself tried all of the above, struggling to kick for over a year, and would surely be dead today if she hadn't gotten on methadone as a last resort. So if methadone didn't work for swiy, that is fine; feel free to share that. But please share that in a way that clarifies one's own experiences without invalidating others who may have differing personal experiences, or making statements without backing them up with objective data or study. Swim is very upset by statements which present any treatment option in a biased and negative light in a way that may deter those who need help from seeking it out, or further stigmatizing addicts- there is already enough of that in this world. No personal hard feelings.. All my best..

EDIT: One more thing, that has been touched on a bit.. most methadone likely does not have an antagonist.. as methadone is a full agonist opioid drug. You may be thinking of Buprenorphine/Naloxone aka Suboxone which has mixed agonist/antagonist properties, and also has the added naloxone, inactive when taken sublingually, to prevent injection, from what I understand. I don't claim to be an expert on opioid maintenance or methadone formulations in other countries, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me that methadone would be formulated with this on a regular basis, and swim has never seen or heard of this in her country.. anyone else have experience with this??

Reputation Comments on this post:

It cleared up what the original poster was saying, and explained the truth.

[jacker]

Originally Posted by moda00

EDIT: One more thing, that has been touched on a bit.. most methadone likely does not have an antagonist.. as methadone is a full agonist opioid drug. You may be thinking of Buprenorphine/Naloxone aka Suboxone which has mixed agonist/antagonist properties, and also has the added naloxone, inactive when taken sublingually, to prevent injection, from what I understand. I don't claim to be an expert on opioid maintenance or methadone formulations in other countries, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me that methadone would be formulated with this on a regular basis, and swim has never seen or heard of this in her country.. anyone else have experience with this??

There's no 'likely' about it. there is simply NO methadone on the market that contains an antagonist. NONE.

Lysergic25 clearly has all his facts messed up, and must be thinking of Subuxone, which is a whole other ballgame.
He seems to go even further and suggest that users of methadone 'pick their own scabs'(probably got that notion off a government propaganda commercial against Methamphetamines) among other things.
"Complete loss of memory and co'ordination"
I'm sorry, but what the fuck are you talking about??
Then you go on to say that methadone 'makes you stupid'. Ok, you - maybe.
But not me, buddy.
Sounds like you have swallowed some major anti-drug propoganda.

I have been on Methadone 4 years now, and i'm sorry to say this, lysergic, but what you're describing seems like a condensed load of nothing, really.
Just a bunch of mixed up facts about a whole variety of different drugs that probably lay there in the back of your mind dormant until for some reason, you decided to write this (bordering on nonsensical) post.

Methadone has saved my life.
I am alive, i have a job.. I am far from stupid.
All methadone has ever done for me was keep me function normally in this fucked up world.

Methadone is far from a cure for addiction. It is an addiction like no other.
It is definitely not for everyone and you should always consider the consequences of going on methadone, that is true.
But PLEASE get your facts straight, before trying to push something off as gospel.

[WILDMANZ]

ITS helped me, I used to abuse my pain meds, now I hold a job as store manager of a BOSE retail store, doing great. pain is held at bay.

[Robbo]

Well I am glad that there are some people not totally slating methadone, I am starting on it tommorow, and all I seem to be hearing is bad stuff about it.. As said in the original post it wasnt for you, but your post scared the shi*t outta me really, its not very helpfull for people who are looking to go on methadone, and maybe have no choice about what they go on, to be reading your horror story, all though I can see why you have posted your story .. anyways, thanks to everyone else for there views, Im still nervous, but we shall see.