Brilliant People and Drugs- Are they hand in hand?

[TheMindIsADangerousThing]

Swim was recently arguing with someone about something or the other, and the subject of swim, intelligence, and drugs somehow got tossed together. Swim started thinking about how many exceptionally brilliant, creative, and all around intelligent druggies swims known. Of course there are plenty of people who can barely spell their own name at the same time, and others who've just burnt out, but swim seriously beleives the use of drugs is is a major component in having and developing an open mind. Theres a fine line between genius and insanity its said. Intelligence is obtained in a large part by experience, and think of all the experiences a drug user might experience a "sober" person might never even imagine, being put in certain situations, experiencing a myriad of emotions and feelings, the crazy philosophising that can occur with any good drug, allowing you to break through modern day barriers and concepts. Swim really is just writing this down for the moment to get swims thoughts in order, and really is just rambling, but hopefully will soon fit it all together more nicely, and repost a finished draft of these thoughts. Please, swim would much enjoy to hear everyones thoughts, and sorry its random and jumbled, but hey, if your on here then swims sure you understand how that is. In vino veritas

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Great Thread!

[Nature Boy]

Interesting notion. Perhaps it is true to an extent, that drug users can be more open-minded and their experiences with drugs could possibly give them advantages in everyday life in terms of rationalisation and ability to cope with certain scenarios.

Then again, there are drug users everywhere. There are many idiot drug users and there are many brilliantly intelligent drug users. The demographic is so large that all types of people will be included, something which makes linking drug use to brilliance virtually impossible.

[Akewstick]

The demographic is so large that all types of people will be included, something which makes linking drug use to brilliance virtually impossible.

I agree with this, but i don't think that was the question, i think the real question is, take a brilliant person who's done drugs, would they be more, less, or equally as brilliant if they hadn't?

I agree with the original post almost entirely,

swim seriously beleives the use of drugs is is a major component in having and developing an open mind.

but this bit, i have a problem with. I don't think doing drugs is a major component of having an open mind, I think thinking in a certain way is, and it's easier or harder to think in such a way depending on what's necessary for you, what you've experienced and what has happened to you.

I think drug use is almost always a really fucking dramatic thing, and dramatic things are the things that have the most impact on you. I don't think the nature of where the dramatic event came from matters in the slightest, the details of it have an influence on how you're going to react to it initially, but it's what you think that's important IMO.

Stevie Boldank has done psychedelic and dissasociative drugs that have changed his beliefs on different things, and in some cases given him belief where there was none, and also changed some of his opinions.

But he dosen't think drugs makes you believe things or change your opinions, the most they can do is to make you think differently, and to give you a new perspective, it's what you do with that perspective and that new way of thinking that changes you.

Stevie was changed as a person by A Picture Of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde more than he was changed by any drug, and he's sure that literature, music, poetry, films and any kind of art can be just as influential as drug use. Neither is more important than the other or is more or less important than what happens to SWIY in their own life, neither is at all important to you as a person, it's what those things make you think.

Stevie Boldank is a different person because of drugs, a person he likes better, but he's a different person because of Oscar Wilde, Pink Floyd, John Lennon and his friend Ped. He dosen't think any of these will make you a better person, he thinks they can help you think things that will get you closer to figuring things out.

Did I go too far? Coming on DF is a well-earned break from writing an essay about Descartes, he's in a typey philosophisey mood...

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	Great post
	Very Good

[TheMindIsADangerousThing]

Swim agrees strongly with the above post, and like swim said, he wasnt completely sure of his writing, was just throwing a rough draft of what came to mind, but swim firmly beleives life has to be lived to the fullest, and swim beleives the mind is just like a maze or a puzzle, each new experience and aspect of life experienced is another peice added or another bend in the maze, and that puzzle or maze is never entirely finished by anyone, swim beleives life is to short to see and do it all unfortunately, but there are some whose puzzles are hardly ever even begun. Swim has a deep love for poetry, fields of health and especially psychology and the study of human behavior and the mind, music, imagery, art in and of itself and all its forms, travle, and has an unquenchable thirst for every type of knowledge there is, and beleives drug use is just another of those peices of the puzzle or bend in the maze that takes us one step closer to enlightenment. If only there were more time. Life cannot be lived unless you live it on the edge, and on the flats, and in a corner and on top of the world and push yourself to see and do and try everything once. More rambling from swim, swim knows, but hey...swims liking this discussion more and more.

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You're pretty turned on.

[Akewstick]

I don't think the mind is a puzzle that we solve, or a maze that we learn our way around. If you want to think about it a maze, I say we start out with a tiny maze that we understand perfectly, and advancement comes through making the maze larger, sometimes more complicated, sometimes more simple, but at all times, we understand all of the maze, and if we don't, then it's not part of our maze.

Your post seems to imply that to be perfectly enlightened you need to have experienced music, books, art, your own human nature, interactions with other people, drugs and various other things. I don't think that, I think that if you can get everything you need from poetry, then poetry is all you need. If poetry does nothing for you, and you can get everything from drugs, then that's all you need. Like i've said, the means don't matter to me, the ends do. I believe someone can look at a tin opener, and it gets them thinking, and they become as enlightened as someone who has done every psychedelic there is and knows all of shakesperre and hume and mozart and has had countless meaningful relationships and fallen in love and had their heart broken.

I don't doubt that all that stuff is an excellent way to gain insight into yourself and possibly even the world, but i think it's what you think about those things that gives you the real advances. If you believe something, it dosen't matter if you believe it because you've got a PHD in psychology and you met god on nitrous oxide, or if you believe it because you sat down and decided that you did.

[Bajeda]

In society you can find brilliant people, creative people, open minded people, close minded people, complete idiots, etc.

Within the demographic of drug users you find all the same groups of people, and in fairly similar proportions it seems. Its just that drug use tends to accentuate some things, so many of the brilliant people swim knows who use drugs are very open minded and liberal and are just in general quite perceptive to the world. On the other hand the dumbasses swim knows who do drugs are even dumber about it as since they are already into illegal activities they tend to not draw a line at which to stop, and in general have a lower maturity level than other brainless people at the same age.

Also, swim wants to say that he also knows some fairly smart people who do drugs who aren't nearly as open minded as him. He also knows some pretty dumb drug users who are just as close minded, though they tend not to take psychedelics.










In any case.... I'm putting this space between the paragraphs as I want to somewhat disregard what I wrote above. Those are swim's observations on the correlation between drug use and intelligence, but they don't really mean much.

Intelligence isn't something you can quantify, or even try to substantiate. Its impossible to even break up intelligence into categories where you can observe discrete units of it. It is composed of so many factors, so much data, information, and knowledge. All your senses, your memories, your past experiences, the chemical makeup of your body and mind, culture, societal circumstances, etc. etc. etc. perpetually culminate to form what can be described as your intelligence, even though it has no tangible aspect to it.

So when drugs come in to play, its hard to describe the impact they have. You can't call someone dumb and someone smart. They are subjective labels that only apply to a limited sphere of your perspective. A bedouin living in the planes of North Africa may not be able to do simple math, read or write, understand basic concepts of human rights or principles of political governance, but you can't call that person stupid. As their intelligence is suited to their own personal needs. The bedouin would think you stupid if you came to the desert to live as you wouldn't be able to tell where to find fire wood based on where the wind is blowing the sand, or spot practically invisible tracks of animals that can be used for food. You wouldn't be able to simply look at all the natural surroundings and tell where to go to find a spring or oasis. Intelligence is your way of surviving in the world, which is strictly defined based on the society you grew up in, the natural surroundings you grew up in, what emotions you needed to deal with growing up, etc. Anything that defines you as a person contributes to your intelligence in some way.

So.... started rambling thanks to certain green vegetative substances so might as well try finishing the idea. I think drug use, especially psychedelic use, broadens the sphere of your intelligence to an extent. Whether it has to do with social connections, meeting people who deal drugs, knowing how to find them, not get scammed or ripped off, being able to avoid the law, etc. Drug use in itself because it is illegal gives you a new set of skills. Also, with psychedelic use I feel that your emotional intelligence can be broadened if they are used correctly (responsibly that is, and hopefully with purpose, as in not just to get fucked up), as you can learn to deal with issues that you might not have even looked at before.


I've got to go, sorry for the rambling mess above, hopefully someone can find some useful ideas in there, albeit poorly expressed.

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Great Insight

[bewilderment]

Originally Posted by Bajeda

In society you can find brilliant people, creative people, open minded people, close minded people, complete idiots, etc.

Within the demographic of drug users you find all the same groups of people, and in fairly similar proportions it seems. Its just that drug use tends to accentuate some things, so many of the brilliant people swim knows who use drugs are very open minded and liberal and are just in general quite perceptive to the world. On the other hand the dumbasses swim knows who do drugs are even dumber about it as since they are already into illegal activities they tend to not draw a line at which to stop, and in general have a lower maturity level than other brainless people at the same age.

I agree and have made the same observations. I think much of what determines if drug-use has a positive or negative effect on an individual is the motive behind using. Which drugs are being used also have a significant impact. Many drugs do damage to the brain and are likely to make a person "slower" than they were before if they use these drugs to excess.

Stimulants in particular are more likely to make a person more productive even if it doesn't necessarily mean that they learn more. The productivity can make it seem to outsiders that the person has become brighter. Swim tends to do more research than usual when using stimulants. She also writes more things down and sometimes will write essays for fun or just to collect her thoughts.

I believe hallucinogen-use does often contribute to more open-mindedness and such. But, it all depends on the individual as well as how they respond to hallucinogens. If they're very close-minded to begin with then they will be more likely to just think of their experience as losing control of rational functions and find the experience meaningless. If one uses hallucinogens specifically to "free the mind" and learn then it is much more likely that some insights will gained. Those who simply use them to "get fucked up" probably won't get as much out of the experiences than the aforementioned type of person, but can still learn things from the trip.

And, open-minded people seem more inclined to use drugs than others as it is which may have a lot to do with things.

Learning about drugs can also tend to broaden a person's interests whether it be more interest in anthropology, psychology, biology, neuroscience, etc.

Also, consider that "mentally ill" people are statistically more likely to (ab)use drugs. They are also said to be more creative (not necessarily more intelligent, but just have more novel ways of thinking) as a whole than those who are not considered "mentally ill".

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interesting & thought-provoking post

[dip]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...-experimenters

SWIM's also heard good things of LSD & computer programmers/engineers like Bill Gates.

[Nagognog2]

Stop insulting LSD!

[zera]

Originally Posted by bewilderment

Stimulants in particular are more likely to make a person more productive even if it doesn't necessarily mean that they learn more. The productivity can make it seem to outsiders that the person has become brighter. Swim tends to do more research than usual when using stimulants. She also writes more things down and sometimes will write essays for fun or just to collect her thoughts.

Paul Erdos, one of the greatest and most prolific mathemeticians of the 20th century was a meth-head (the prescription kind). He kept outputting works way into old age, even though most mathemeticians peak at 35. His friends once bet him $500 that he couldn't quit for 30 days, he won the bet but later remarked that they set the progress of mathematics back a month.

And as for the poster who mentioned computers and LSD, much of the BSD, the original widely supported Unix distribution was created thought up by Berkeley comp sci people under the influence of psychedlics. Steve Jobs once remarked that taking LSD was one of the most important events of his life.

In general I think highly intelligent people just tend to be way more eccentric than normal people. You find a much wider spectrum of of behaviour in them, from totally withdrawan and anti-social people, like Isaac Newton, to complete party animals like John von Neumann.

[darawk]

I'd say drug use is more a symptom of brilliance than a cause. Smart people tend to do drugs because smart people are curious and what could be more interesting than a completely novel mode of perception and thought?

Of course, stupid people tend to do drugs also, but for different reasons. They use them to escape, or just to have fun. I'm not saying that using drugs for fun some of the time makes you dumb, just that if that's *all* you're using them for...then you're probably not in the 'brilliant drug user' category.

It seems the only people who don't use them are those stuck somewhere in-between. And given my personal anecdotal experience, that is generally true.

[Beeker]

Timmothy Leary was a real moron with the "Turn on, Tune in, Drop out" crap that got Mushrooms scheduled in the US back in the 60's - so no. In fact I'd say a anyone in the us who watches TV more then an hour a day shouldn't do drugs because they already are hooked on one. If you can't escape with a Television then add beer or cannabis and you got an addiction.

I've also seen many guys proclaim themselves the "next Jesus" after a heavy trip which is always good for a laugh but in their minds they believe that shyt.

[AntiAimer]

Well, just look at anybody that actually had a major impact on our world. They've all tooken drugs, even M$ Bill Gates took drugs. Even jesus himself, partaked in drugs. Everything atleast had some type of drug influence, with the crazy sh!t we have nowadays....wow.

[Riconoen {UGC}]

Drugs are a gift from god my freinds, even if you believe in a higher power or not you have to think that these things we call drugs didnt have the power to change our brain chemistry by mere chance it's just too coincidal. They are here for a reason and that reason is to enlighten us to thiongs we could never experience without them. and thats why smart people are more drawn to them. do the math.

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I agree 100%

[Pinkavvy]

part of being brilliant is having an open mind which can lead one to self discovery via drug use; some of the most inteligent people swip has met have at least dabbled in drugs.

[Pinkavvy]

Originally Posted by AntiAimer

Well, just look at anybody that actually had a major impact on our world. They've all tooken drugs, even M$ Bill Gates took drugs. Even jesus himself, partaked in drugs. Everything atleast had some type of drug influence, with the crazy sh!t we have nowadays....wow.

Eh? you kicked it with the man jesus of nazerath from historical tales and saw him do drugs?

[dip]

[paranoid]

[Trebor]

Jesus was a hippy. Lokk at the pics, beard, robes, long hair, preaching love. Come on.

[Each Hit]

swim thinks that many "brilliant" people are lured to drugs due to boredom. swim is almost to the point where he cannot stand being in college classes unless he has smoked marijuana simply because the material is so dumbed down that a sober swim would stop paying attention pretty quickly.

of course, boredom is only a cause for a handful of people, and likely not the only one in most people. in swim's experience, though, sometimes his mind races over thoughts almost to a point of driving him mad, and a nice bowl of bud or a few beers can really dull his racing thoughts enough to allow him some enjoyment (if any of that makes sense). perhaps this is escapist drug use, but swim would rather be an escapist than the highly eccentric person he becomes when he has been sober for a few weeks.

[dip]

[paranoid]

[Trebor]

Here's a few brilliant people who used:
Aldous Huxley
Friedrich Nietzcshe
89% of Musicians (not counting rappers or djs)
Sigmund Freud
Arthur Conan Doyle
Terennce McKenna
Timothy Leary
Albert Hoffman
Edgar Allen Poe
Voltaire
Balzac
Clinton

The list is endless.

[Akewstick]

Charlie Manson
Adolf Hitler
Your Dealer
Ringo Starr
Tara Palmer Tomkinson
Kate Moss
George W. Bush
Most people who've stolen from you on the street
The man that stands in the toilet of Burger King in Wolverhampton and sings "Sweet Child o' Mine" at you while you're peeing

Not everyone who used drugs is/was brilliant

I personally think Adolf, Charlie, and that burger king guy are brilliant, but i felt they couldn't be left off the list

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made my day

[dip]

I also believe Adolf Hitler was a genius. He was a fairly good artist but chose a path of politics instead. His drug of choice happened to be Methaphetamine, which would reduce human compassion and empathy.
What if he was to consume mushrooms instead? He could have exteneded his talents of art and philosophy.

You've heard of the mad scientist of psychotic painter? Many of whom were (looking back many decades ago) heavy drinkers

Originally Posted by TheMindIsADangerousThing

Theres a fine line between genius and insanity its said.

I highly dissagree with this, and believe the genius is insane. Which drug this individual chooses to consume would extend his/her already eccentric personality.
Further, I assume most of these geniuses are self-medicating a variety of psychiartic disorders.

[Nagognog2]

Back on topic, folks. Or start a new thread in philosophy.

Winston Churchill?

Richard M. Nixon?

[AntiAimer]

There's a line between a drug user and a drug addict. Just depends on the person and his/her needs.