Addiction - Kratom Addiction

[drewcil]

Well...to make a long story as short as possible..SWIM had back surgery about 2 years ago, before the surgery SWIM was prescribed hydrocodone's...SWIM didn't even know what they did when given them. Anyway, as the story goes...SWIM eventually became very addicted, going up to about 15 pills a day of 10/500's. This basically ruined SWIM's senior year of college, as SWIM failed out (never failed a class in 3 years previously). It ruined SWIM's social life, as SWIM pushed everyone away and even treated SWIM's significant other like they weren't a person. At close to rock bottom, SWIM learned of Kratom. The "miracle" had come, or so was thought.

To make another long story short...after a year of hydro's, swim went to doctor and told what was going on. SWIM had researched a lot, and found out about kratom. The doctor was all for it, as it was "legal" and effective. As another year has passed, SWIM has been on between 50-70 grams of kratom every single day. Again, the same thing happened, just more so. Friends were pushed away even more, SWIM is very active within exercise/fitness/nutrition, and though SWIM would do everything having to do with that, that was the only thing SWIM would do. Every other time of the day SWIM sit's in a room with the blinds closed, surfing the internet, and watching tv. SWIM again failed out of college, and didn't really care. As long as SWIM had the kratom and a place to hang out, that was ALL that mattered. SWIM showed no emotion towards ANYTHING, including SWIM's significant other who had just about enough of it. Many of SWIM's friends said SWIM was very different, and wasn't even close to their old self. The other day SWIM saw a best friend that is as close as a brother. SWIM hadn't seen them in a while, and the next day, this friend called SWIM asking what was wrong, and why SWIM was so quiet and seemed so unattached from. This person could tell that just seeing SWIM for an hour. Through this whole thing, SWIM's relationship with their significant other was just going down and down, the whole time SWIM thinking it was all the other person's fault. Just recently (3 days ago) SWIM realized that a life lead like this, was not a life at all. SWIM decided just like that to quit kratom cold turkey.

It's 48 hours now with NO kratom whatsoever. SWIM's withdrawals are VERY VERY bad. Crying uncontrollably for no reason, awful chills (these have been the worst so far), muscleaches...these are the worst ones. As for the psychological side, SWIM has been "chemically enhanced" for over 2 years now. SWIM feels like nothing is enjoyable anymore without having kratom. SWIM feels like SWIM needs it to survive daily life. Everyone around SWIM is VERY supportive, as SWIM has very good friends, and a significant other who is the happiest ever now that the kratom is gone. SWIM is feeling like SWIM used to feel, besides these side effects. SWIM will go out and do things again, just to get out, SWIM will do ANYTHING to pass the time, as the days have dragged by incredibly slow these last couple days.

SWIM has done a lot of research lately, and has read different opinions everywhere. Some people say that withdrawal lasts 3-4 days, some say 3-4 weeks. SWIM knows the psychological part will take a while, and SWIM knows how irresponsibly this substance was used.

SWIM has purchased some Phenibut, hoping that it will help out a little bit, and maybe put SWIM in a bit of a better mood. A number of nootropics will be purchased as well such as ALCAR, l-tyrosine, vinpocetine, rhodiola, and bacopa, and possibly a couple others. SWIM has also been downing caffeine like it's water lately.

If anyone wants to share a similar experience, or has any good methods to help with psychological and physical withdrawals, it would be greatly appreciated. Sorry, this is so long, SWIM just had a lot to get off SWIM's chest, and couldn't stop typing.

Thanks from SWIM

Reputation Comments on this post:

	I'm glad for you and glad you shared.
	Very informative post. Hope things are getting better.
	thanks for sharing and good luck!
	thanx for sharing

[Forthesevenlakes]

This sounds like a very difficult experience for SWIY, but he will be better for it. Emotions will come back over time, and SWIY will start feeling human again. However this may take longer than the physical withdrawals last. SWIM is guessing that the withdrawals themselves will last no longer than 10 days, probably subsiding around 7. SWIY should read up on the other threads pertaining to opiate/opioid addiction since SWIM guesses that they would be VERY similar to kratom addiction. Also get some loperamide. SWIM has a feeling that will be useful. Please keep us posted as to your progress and if you have any specific questions after checking out those other threads.

[Alfa]

50-70 grams a day? That is an enormous pile of Kratom. I have never read about anyone doing those amounts. SWIY is writing about unexplored teritory, so all one can do is guess and estimate upon experiences from members which have done lower amounts of kratom.

[FunkyMunky]

Originally Posted by Alfa

50-70 grams a day? That is an enormous pile of Kratom. I have never read about anyone doing those amounts. SWIY is writing about unexplored teritory, so all one can do is guess and estimate upon experiences from members which have done lower amounts of kratom.

X2 that would last SWIM a couple months. Sorry to hear about the unfortunate experiences by SWIY and hope all turns out good for them. Addictions and withdrawls suck I hear.

[Nagognog2]

SWIY's experience, no matter how bad, is indeed very valuable to the knowledge-base. Do continue to post about SWIY.

[drewcil]

SWIM is very appreciative of SWIY's posts. The first one was very helpful to SWIM. 50-70 grams is a lot, and SWIM didn't even think twice about it. SWIM was in the mindset that everyone who abused kratom was taking that large of an amount, and it was "no big deal". SWIM has taken some phenibut today, and is actually feeling a little bit better. Phenibut has had a calming effect, and the chills, muschlaces have been reduced, and the crying has subsided. SWIM doesn't really like phenibut that much, but feels that if it is having this effect, that it may be helpful for the next couple of week. Again, SWIM thanks everyone for posting and helping out.

[snapper]

There isn't much that's OTC that will help, though if you start again, you might want to taper the dose a bit before quitting. Most people use 5-10 g in a day. SWIM has been a daily user for a while and rarely exceeds this dose. SWIM has not withdrawn from this yet, but has from heroin several times, and so knows the worst to expect. As with either drug, just keep at it and do not give in once you start or you;ll have to go through it all over again...
Phenibut does help with anxiety, but don't use too much as it has a nasty hangover and lasts a long time.

[geophagus]

Originally Posted by snapper

Most people use 5-10 g in a day.

Geeze! SWIM usually takes between 15-25 g of Bali powdered leaf in the course of one evening.

Now SWIM begins to ponder whether or not he might be addicted to kratom.

SWIM seems to not suffer any withdrawl whenever he has decided to stop for a day or two.

[Hlucn8]

Swim has three herniated disks and was on chronic opiate pain therapy for some time. Swims actually too embarrassed to post how much swim was using, suffice it to say that 15 Mg tabs of hydro would have been one modest dose to him. He would also distill and inject his duragesic patches, injecting enough at one time, (near the end), that he guessed would probably killed a hoarse, literally. If you check swims posts, swim is always harping on addictive properties of these substances.
swim does have one piece of advice that is crucial to long term success. Now that physical addiction has Set in, swiy will be very susceptible to the physical addiction again. When swim first started, he could go on week long binges without noticing any with drawls. Now, if he goes on a three day binge, he notices very uncomfortable withdraws for a few days after. It took some time to learn self control so as to not get trapped again. If swiy can leave this lover altogether, it would probably be best, (but swim loves her sooo much!).
It is helpfully to remember what has happened to swiys brain. The base of the brain contains the opiate receptors. They were created to accept endogenous endorphins so the brain can cope with pain. Endorphins closely resemble the opiate molecule, so opiates can be called "exogenous endorphins". When one takes these substances into the body, they lodge in the opiate receptors, mimicking the bodies own endorphins, producing, among other things, euphoria. It literally makes the Brain look at pain differently. This is also true of emotional pain. Over time, the brain realizes that it is producing too many endorphins and begins to shut down it's own production, much in the same way the testes do in the presence of exogenous testosterone. After even longer time, in an effort to achieve balance, the brain actually begins to grow more receptors in the centers being affected,(mainly the mu). This is the secret of tolerance, and why swim was able to do ungodly amounts without dying. Swims brain had literally changed to accommodate. When one stops all of the sudden, the brain recoils. It has more receptors than the original design had called for, but even less natural chemical to plug into the receptors than before the cycle of addiction began. Emotional and physical pain are experienced by the brain as a result. In time, the brain will realize that it does not need so many receptors and will begin once again to change the landscape of these centers. But because this has already been experianced by the brain once, it is verry quick to adapt when it happens again, hence the increased suceptability to recurring addiction.
Since large doses of Kratom cause a spillover effect into the mu opiate receptor, it can be extrapolated from the data that it is doing the some thing. It will pass, but it will take awhile.
Tell your buddy to only have occasional fling with this woman in the future,(if at all), and if she ever offers some F/m bondage and S&M again, tell him to say NO! She is a wonderful lover, but a horrible mistress.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	you always give great advice, my man!
	Good explanation of addiction.

[drewcil]

Very helpful, SWIM is very knowledgeable of "nutritional supplements" and everything having to do with endogenous and exogenous testosterone. SWIM never knew it worked like that within the brain with these type of substances. SWIM is sorry to hear about SWIY's back pain and what SWIY went through, SWIM is also glad SWIY has it under control. SWIM thanks SWIY for taking the time to post their experience and offer some advice, it is much appreciated by SWIM! SWIM doesn't plan on using again, and is doing everything possible to stay off.

[Hlucn8]

Originally Posted by drewcil

SWIM doesn't plan on using again, and is doing everything possible to stay off.

Very wise decision! Good luck to you.

[Nicaine]

The issue of replacing traditional opiates with kratom is an important one, vs. that of becoming addicted to kratom with no prior opiate involvement.

Kratom has essentially been 'maintaining' the opiate receptor deficit caused by hydrocodone, and so what SWIY's going through now is much closer to hydro withdrawal than kratom withdrawal. SWIY should probably plan on 7-10 days, rather than the 3-4 days when only kratom has been abused.

Also, SWIY should really try hard to taper down instead of going through this (otherwise, what was the point of the kratom in the first place?). If SWIY has tried and it's impossible, *then* is the time to consider cold turkey. After some mental preparation, and with supplies like phenibut, etc. already on hand (try getting a couple weeks worth of low-dose clonidine from the doctor, and maybe a week's supply of Ativan).

Best of luck...

[snapper]

Yes, Benzos help with the anxiety and shakes a bit. Also, low dose DXM has been shown anecdotally to help, though again it is a round-about opaite so work up slowly.
SWIM learned the hard way that cold turkey is always a bad idea. it is well worth tapering if SWIY has enough self discipline and is willing to put up with a longer overall withdrawal time.
Good luck. SWIM may be adding to this thread soon, as SWIM definitely has upregulated opiate receptors from past heavy heroin abuse, and will likely get a bitch of a withdrawal from months of daily use. SWIM's body is used to this kind of punishment though. Too bad there's always a price to pay !

[drewcil]

SWIM really want to genuinely say thanks to everyone who helped SWIM out in this thread. SWIM's withdrawals were pretty darn bad, and now the mental part is hitting SWIM pretty hard as well. SWIM would say the withdrawals lasted a good 8-10 days. Phenibut seemed to help that, but too much Phenibut can cause some nasty anxiety type withdrawals as well, so it's all gotta be done with nothing else. Now that SWIM is past the withdrawal stage, SWIM just feels bored all the time, like everything used to be so enjoyable, and now there is never a good mood. SWIM doesn't know if there's anything that can help with mood enhancement, but something is definitely needed. Does anyone know how long it may take SWIM to feel "normal" again? Even something as simple as being excited to watch a movie or something like that. Nothing is enjoyable anymore. BTW, today is Day 14 for SWIM being off the stuff. Thanks very much again from SWIM.

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by drewcil

Now that SWIM is past the withdrawal stage, SWIM just feels bored all the time, like everything used to be so enjoyable, and now there is never a good mood. SWIM doesn't know if there's anything that can help with mood enhancement, but something is definitely needed. Does anyone know how long it may take SWIM to feel "normal" again?

SWIM was hooked on kratom for just over a year, and when he quit he got some moderate depression starting around day 4 and lasting a couple weeks... the best cure is probably just time.

Even something as simple as being excited to watch a movie or something like that. Nothing is enjoyable anymore. BTW, today is Day 14 for SWIM being off the stuff. Thanks very much again from SWIM.

If the depression continues more than another week or two, SWIY might want to see a doctor about getting on an antidepressant. SWIM got through that period by quitting smoking and forcing himself to exercise regularly (even tho he didn't want to), which helped a lot.

[radiometer]

Great job holding in there. SWIM needs to detox off of kratom himself sometime in the future, but he's putting it off for a while yet. I know it may seem like trite advice, but getting into a hobby, or something which gets SWIY out of the house sometimes (a volunteer program type of thing is great, because positively impacting others can help a lot with self-image and personal strength), and getting into working out are all very helpful.

[gn2osis]

Hey Radiometer! Long-time no see.

SWIM is a big advocate of tapering opioids. Kratom could be helpful in tapering off hydro because kratom is less sedating, and therefore more suited to use during the day. (Any hydro dose greater than 5 mg caused SWIM to feel excessively tired.) But it's still a monkey. SWIM liked a reputable vendor's 10x kratom extract, and felt that 0.5 gram (1/5 tsp.) of the extract had about the same effects as 7.5 mg hydro.

SWIM's daily hydro use was about 35 mg, most of which was taken at bedtime, with a few mg in the early evening to stave off acute w/d's. He tried to cold-turkey a couple times, but the emotional and physical malaise were too much. Tapering finally worked.

Bottom line, for an easier ride, SWIM would suggest tapering kratom at about 10% every 2-3 days, maybe with some short-term benzo assistance.

P.S. - Interesting comment above about low-dose DXM helping, since methadone has some dissociative activity too.

[gn2osis]

drewcil, I meant to say: yes, it definitely gets better! The post-hydro malaise lasted a couple of months, but each week was easier. You're over the worst of it by far.

Since Kratom has stimulant properties too, some sort of stimulant might help withdraw from it (with all due caution about that class of materials). In SWIM's experience, kratom at the dosage mentioned above (1/5 tsp of 10x extract) substituted pretty well for about 5 mg Adderall + 5 mg of hydro.

Damned impressive testament to your strength and willpower that you've been able to kick it.

[tonymontana]

ive heard so many stories of people getting addicted to opiates after back surgery. they really have to come out with a pill that doesnt have euphoric side effects but still numbs pain. and they also need to make money trees, and time machines, and self replenishing bags of doritos.

[Nicaine]

SWIM was heavily addicted to kratom between summer '05 and April/May '06. He managed to kick the stuff after that, but recently has been dumb enough to once again become dependent. The recent dryup of RC's has contributed to his overdoing the stuff and again becoming both physically and mentally dependent.

Anyway, here's a short case history of what the experience is like.

Bedtime: SWIM can't sleep unless he's high on kratom. Yet once he gets high on it, he has trouble falling asleep due to stimulation/anxiety. It takes a minimum of some Lunesta to put him to sleep, and sometimes he's awake half the night tossing and turning.

Morning: Withdrawals kick in toward the morning hours while SWIM is still asleep, often resulting in nightmares and poor sleep quality. SWIM wakes up in withdrawal every morning -- a state of intense inner agitation coupled with fatigue (agitation can be so bad it results in irregular, racing heartbeats and dizziness). He heads straight for the kitchen to prepare himself a cup of kratom tea and await the blessed relief when the stuff kicks in.

Day: SWIM is out of work, but kratom lowers his motivation even more than usual. Typically he sits around watching dumb TV shows, buzzing on kratom most of the day.

Evening: SWIM averages 2-3 cups of kratom daily (~20 g/dose at this point). Typically he redoses midafternoon, and then evening, then MAYBE again right before bedtime.

General: SWIM's sex drive has been dead, dead, dead. All the time while he's on kratom, and often even when he's not. Of course when not, he feels too crappy to have sex anyway, so let's just call it dead. His nuts actually physically hurt due to weeks & weeks with no release. SWIM has recently been taking an enema daily/every day for severe constipation caused by kratom. He has also lost some weight and his diet has gone to hell recently.

W/D: Mostly agitation coupled with extreme fatigue. Some sweating, chills and other opiate-like symptoms as well, but mostly those two. The main w/d's last 3-4 days, at which point they subside but then strong depression kicks in (enough to make SWIM contemplate suicide + checking himself into the hospital) and lasts til the 2-3 week point. After that SWIM is OK, *if* he manages to stay off kratom during the depression phase.

SWIM is going to kick kratom again... soon, very soon...

P.S. SWIM posted this to encourage the reader to take it easy with kratom. It's legal and easy to get, and those are often the most troublesome of substances (look what effect alcohol has on society). SWIM urges both caution and conservativeness in dosing -- don't use kratom more than 3 times/week, preferably with two clean days in between every day it's used. NEVER use kratom more than once a day. Once is enough to become lightly dependent, but more than this makes the dependency strong and very hard to kick, not to mention greatly increasing side effects like chronic constipation and loss of sex drive.

[allyourbase]

SWIN should rediscover the wonders of high grade marijuana. kratom is a narcotic, if not an opiate. the key to narcotics is willpower and patience. if one is using more than once or twice a month (excepting of course times of actual physical pain wherin narcotics are useful painkillers), then chances are one is at least mentally dependant. self denial is self control.

[enquirewithin]

Interesting, frank post SWIN, as usual. This might make some people rightly cautious. Whilst SWIM has never taken kratom very regularly, he can emphasise with this:

...once he gets high on it, he has trouble falling asleep due to stimulation/anxiety. It takes a minimum of some Lunesta to put him to sleep, and sometimes he's awake half the night tossing and turning.

SWIM finds kratom stops him sleeping properly too, which is strange becuase you would think it would help you sleep. And it kills SWIM's sex drive-- or abilty to have sex properly.

SWIM averages 2-3 cups of kratom daily (~20 mg/dose at this point).

A question: Do you mean 20 g?

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by enquirewithin

Interesting, frank post SWIN, as usual.

SWIM appreciates SWIY recognizing his frankness, somehow he was raised with a deep core of honesty. One of the very few good things about his upbringing. It's certainly helped keep SWIM out of serious trouble over the years.

Originally Posted by enquirewithin

A question: Do you mean 20 g?

Oops... yep, 20 grams.

Originally Posted by allyourbase

SWIN should rediscover the wonders of high grade Marijuana.

Unfortunately, Marijuana does little for SWIM except knock his IQ down by about a hundred points and makes him feel like Butthead (of MTV Beavis & Butthead fame). He'd rather just clean up off everything anyway instead of being mentally dependent on a substance. Dependency gets really tiresome after awhile, despite all the convenient excuses it offers for laziness, procrastination, lack of motivation, etc.

[snapper]

Ouch. SWIM has about a 5 - 10 g/day habit which has never gotten worse. SWIM does not have those 'in between dose' withdrawals either. SWIM is not saying this to gloat, but SWIM is surprised. SWIM honestly thought SWIM would be strung and dopesick when SWIM stopped, but no noticable withdrawals. SWIM does recognize that it does not help with sleep - SWIM has had more insomnia lately. SWIM is planning on reducing dosing to every other day soon and tapering down to nothing to see how SWIM's sleep is changed. SWIM has not stopped for more than a couple of days in about a year, so SWIM will report any problems.
Still, 60 g/ day is really high dosing - withdrawals at this level would be more likely so maybe it is dose dependent. Be thankful that SWINicaine never met GHB...
... and good luck stopping, BTW...

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by snapper

Ouch. SWIM has about a 5 - 10 g/day habit which has never gotten worse. SWIM does not have those 'in between dose' withdrawals either. SWIM is not saying this to gloat, but SWIM is surprised. SWIM honestly thought SWIM would be strung and dopesick when SWIM stopped, but no noticable withdrawals.

5-10g/day is probably not enough to produce anything notable in the way of withdrawals. One's opiate receptors have to downregulate to some particular extent, after all. Nothing complicated about it, at least on the physical side of things. That's why SWIM feels there's a powerful dividing line between one dose/day and more than one, as frequency of use seems to be a major contributor in kratom's case.

SWIM does recognize that it does not help with sleep - SWIM has had more insomnia lately. SWIM is planning on reducing dosing to every other day soon and tapering down to nothing to see how SWIM's sleep is changed. SWIM has not stopped for more than a couple of days in about a year, so SWIM will report any problems.
Still, 60 g/ day is really high dosing - withdrawals at this level would be more likely so maybe it is dose dependent. Be thankful that SWINicaine never met GHB...
... and good luck stopping, BTW...

Thanks.... and yes, SWIM is extremely grateful he never encountered GHB/GBL. Some of the horror stories scare his pants off, and he's fairly hardened to addiction tales at this point in his life.