Phenibut, worth it for relaxation/sleep?

[~lostgurl~]

Originally Posted by Blur

Phenibut works on the GABA-B receptor, whereas benzos work on the GABA-A receptor. And sure enough, benzos won't do squat when you're in phenibut, ghb, or gbl withdrawal. Phenobarbital bypasses the gaba receptors and directly opens the neural ion channel, decreasing firing frequency and preventing seizures, convulsions, etc.

SWIM has never played with Phenibut but she has played a lot with GBL and found the withdrawal symptoms to be somewhat similar to those of benzo withdrawal.... fuzzy head, prickly skin, shakes.... and SWIM found benzos (Clonazepam anyway) helped to alleviate and lessen the symptoms of GBL withdrawal and vice versa (GBL helped with the withdrawal symptoms from Benzos) Note that it did not stop the withdrawals but it sure helped.

SWIM has not compared notes on this, so this might not work for everyone, but in SWIM's experience Zopiclone (at normal dose) completely alleviated all symptoms of GBL withdrawal as long as she got a couple of hours sleep from it. (with no sleep SWIM found Zopiclone alleviated much - but not all - of the GBL wirhdrawals). So theoretically this would also work with Phenibut. Again this worked vise versa with GBL completely alleviating the withdrawal symptoms of Zopiclone (though it had to be dosed every 1.5 hours and eventually SWIM had to then come off the GBL by taking Zopiclone!)

SWIM does not know the chemistry behind these results, she just knows it worked for her.

Taking different sleep aids on alternate days is also a way to prevent tolerance, addiction and withdrawal, ie using GBL 2 nights, Zopiclone 2 nights, Benzo's 2 nights or whatever SWIY has available.... Phenibut, Melatonin, Ambien. The problem is SWIM's usually develop a habit to one sleep aid before putting a plan like this in action.

[Blur]

Benzodiazepines probably won't hurt and SWIM is sure they help some..the degree to which they help is questionable though. It just seems their effect is dramatically diminished during ghb/gbl/phenibut withdrawal. For someone with no benzo tolerance, a benzo might attenuate the withdrawal quite a bit. Unfortunately SWIM has been on benzos for years and they seemed to have no effect during withdrawal (swim took about 20 mg clonazepam the first day to no effect; normally SWIM would sleep for 3 days straight after such a dose). SWIM doesn't have a big benzo habit either (2 mg/day for about 3 years). There is some literature out there supporting this:


Department of Emergency Medicine of St. Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital, New York, New York, USA.
We report a case of gamma-hydroxybutyrate (GHB) withdrawal resulting in severe agitation, mental status changes, elevated blood pressure, and tachycardia hours after stopping chronic use of GHB. The patient admitted to substantial GHB abuse on a daily basis for 2.5 years. Previous attempts at cessation reportedly resulted in diaphoresis, tremors, and agitation. The patient's symptoms, negative polypharmacy history, and negative urine and blood toxicological analysis for alcohol, benzodiazepines, sedative-hypnotics, or other substances suggested the diagnosis of GHB withdrawal. Later analysis of a patient drug sample confirmed the presence of GHB. The patient required 507 mg of lorazepam and 120 mg of diazepam over 90 h to control agitation. This is one of the few reported cases of GHB withdrawal and one of the most severe. Given the increasing use of GHB, more cases of severe GHB withdrawal.

Apparently this guy had a mega-habit though.

One other study:

Department of Emergency Medicine, University of Massachusetts Medical School, Worcester, MA, USA. sivilotm@meds.queensu.ca
STUDY OBJECTIVE: Gamma-hydroxybutyrate (GHB) and gamma-butyrolactone (GBL) have become popular drugs of abuse. Acute overdose with either agent results in a well-recognized syndrome of central nervous system and respiratory depression. Recently, a withdrawal syndrome has been described for GHB. We report a severe form of GBL withdrawal, characterized by delirium, psychosis, autonomic instability, and resistance to benzodiazepine therapy. METHODS: We performed a chart review of consecutive admissions for GBL withdrawal in a regional toxicology treatment center. RESULTS: During a 6-month period, 5 patients presented with severe withdrawal attributed to abrupt GBL discontinuation. Patients manifested tachycardia, hypertension, paranoid delusions, hallucinations, and rapid fluctuations in sensorium. Test results for ethanol and routine drugs of abuse were negative. Initial treatment with high doses of lorazepam proved ineffective. Pentobarbital was then administered, resulting in excellent control of behavioral, autonomic, and psychiatric symptoms and in rapid reduction or avoidance of benzodiazepines. Median hospital stay was 5 days. No patient had respiratory depression or required mechanical ventilation. Patients were discharged on tapering doses of benzodiazepines or pentobarbital and were free of psychotic symptoms at follow-up. CONCLUSION: GBL discontinuation can result in severe withdrawal, necessitating ICU admission. Pentobarbital may be more effective than benzodiazepines at controlling delirium in patients with abnormal vital signs, paranoid delusions, and hallucinations as a result of GBL withdrawal.

It looks like the more severe the dependence, the more likely benzos are ineffective. SWIM is certainly not trying to dispute what SWIY said, just that in SWIM's opinion, barbiturates are the better choice if they are available. Ultimately, the sedative effect of all of these drugs comes from the opening of gated chloride ion channels in the neuron. Benzos do it by modifying the Gaba-A receptor, helping GABA to "bind better". There are a couple of secondary messenger systems that are then activated and finally the chloride ion gate opens and the neural firing frequency decreases(sedation). SWIM knows nothing about the Gaba-B receptor, but if it causes sedation, it is going to be similar to the Gaba-A receptor. There are other Gaba receptors as well. Barbiturates bypass the Gaba receptors and secondary chemical cascades, and directly accomplishes what all of these various Gaba based drugs are doing in a more indirect manner, opening the gated chloride ion channel on the neuron, reducing firing rate and producing sedation.

In SWIM's opinion, if someone has lowish/no benzo tolerance, and a mild-to-moderate ghb/gbl/phenibut habit, high dose benzo's may be the way to go. They are certainly easier to get.

If this individual has some benzo tolerance and a more severe habit, barbs appear to be more effective. Severity of habit is probably the major factor here, really. SWIM has low benzo tolerance and they did nothing, but SWIM also had a severe phenibut dependence.

The zopiclone being effective is interesting. SWIM can't remember the trade name (know it's not ambien but really similar). That class of drugs is pretty strange in SWIM's opinion. Staying awake after taking a moderately-high dose feels somewhat hallucinogenic to SWIM.

Anyway, that's SWIM's 2 cents.

Best protocol: Just avoid this crap. Tolerance skyrockets quickly and the subjective effects suck compared to GHB. Definately don't use every night to get to sleep. That is exactly how SWIM got started with this stuff.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Excellent Info, good research too, thx

[orevgym]

Phenibut is very usefull to me. It helps me sleep better.

[azrael2600]

swim loves phenibut, swim finds great for relaxation,, although swim has to take a long from using it regularly because swim developes a tolerance to it quickly,, at one point swim was taking at least 8 grams a day.

[Niteflights]

After having gone through the "around the world" tour of sleeping aids... I have found what works best for me. Don't expect them to knock you out after getting whacked out on stimulants, but frankly you need to make some lifestyle adjustments if you need to knock yourself out routinely.

Magnesium... a known CNS sedative, safe, effective and actually healthy. Counteracts many negative side effects of stimulants.

High dose Niacin (500-1000mg). After the flush you get a lovely residual warmth which makes it very easy to fall asleep. You get to where you actually enjoy the flushing. Also the flushing action has the added benefit of helping to eliminate any residual chemicals your may have residing in your system.

A decent shot ( or a few) of your favorite liquor is a fantastic sleeping aid. Nightcap of champions.

Melatonin and Valerian are both safe and mildly effective, your results may very. You can safely take much larger (5-20x) than typical doses of both of these with no negative side effects. Melatonin is a fantastic antioxidant and will prevent many forms of chemical induced neurotoxicity.

I have a bottle of somas in the closet for the special occasions. If you have to rely on the benzos I would go for halcion. Works fast, knocks you out cold, and has the shortest half life so it is out of your system by the time you wake up. Take it easy with these, they are not for regular use. Really no benzos are any good to take routinely. They will serious fkuc you up more than many recreational drugs (witness my ex). .

cheers!
Andrei

Reputation Comments on this post:

Excellent and interesting information. Thanks.

[~lostgurl~]

Originally Posted by Niteflights

Melatonin is a fantastic antioxidant and will prevent many forms of chemical induced neurotoxicity.

Can you please expand on this?

[snapper]

Gawd, sounds like a worse version of GBL without the benefits. SWIM used GBL daily for about 8 years, then 1,4 bdo for another year, and never really increased SWIMs average daily dose, though some binges bled into the 50ml/day of GBL (only a moron takes that much - never do it ).
SWIM would play the rebounds. The key is to never use 24/7 AT ALL, or at least not for more than 3 days. After that the rebound becomes intolerable and then yer hooked.
SWIM overall used no more than 10 ml /day, usually more like 5. SWIM eventually hit the day SWIM ran out, and the much feared withdrawal never happened; just insomnia, flabbiness, less energy during the day and depression. GBL isn't so bad and lasts longer than GHB. It's a matter of self-discipline and judicious management, like any habit.
SWIM has had no GBL like effects from phenibut. The stuff is useful for anxiety from dopamine rebound an panic attacks, but not for any recreational effect. 3 grams was useless for SWIM other than a hangover. Phenibut also interferes with SWIMs sleep in an unpredictable way. SWIM uses it for anxiety, but it is no replacement for GHB and friends.
Nicaine, phenobarbital has NO pleasant qualities, and has less short term side effects than the others you listed. The schedule thing can be a problem though in the US...

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by snapper

Gawd, sounds like a worse version of GBL without the benefits.

Did SWIY note the doses Blur allowed himself to reach? If so, why the surprise? Let's extrapolate this to benzos, but give phenibut a break and only include 50% of Blur's dosage, as well as choosing one of the less potent benzos. Given that phenibut is basically a prescription drug in Russia (and probably should be everywhere else) it seems fair enough. So Blur's intake may have been comparable to popping 400 10mg Valium tablets/day. Given typical starting doses of phenibut it's an exaggeration, but hopefully gets the point across.

SWIM continues to find many reports of gaba-ergic substance abuse shocking, as the people involved not only seem to be oblivious while their dosage exponentially skyrockets, but continue blaming the drug even after somehow surviving through peak usage and withdrawal periods. As if these massive doses of drugs got up and walked into their bodies while they were dosing on the couch.

Edit -- to be fair, SWIM has noticed this pattern around here with other substances too. Case in point -- somebody takes what amounts to 5,000 doses of a certain stimulant over the course of a year, and not only survives it but comes through with only minor brain damage. They then proceed to warn people how the drug in question is really dangerous and caused X to happen to them, never mentioning their usage pattern until pressed by others who hadn't experienced similar problems. The mind boggles.

[snapper]

SWIM can attest to the strong addiction some of these gaba drugs have. GBL and GHB is REALLY easy to abuse, and part of the huge tolerance is withdrawal avoidance, even though the user may not know it. For instance, before SWIM figured out the dopamine withdrawal thing, SWIM thought it was stress or too much coffee. A good solution was to slug some more GBL. After a while, stopping was akin to electrocution.
SWIY is right that excessive use is likely to cause problems, however, in the case of phenibut, it probably takes excessive usage to get a recreational effect. It is not designed for that, hence the comment that phenibut is like GBL without the perks.

[Spelvin]

swim thinks phenibut is rad, but it takes a whileto figure it out. First off, it can take hours to come on, and swiy will be temped to redose, and swiy can come to regret that after all the doses have kicked in. Swim cant explain it, it just feels... gross, sick, dirty but not in a good way. so theres a fine like swiy has to discover, and then abstain for a while so that line doesnt move!
For the record, here is SWIM's regimen:
On a not-full-but-not-empty stomach, dissolve 1/4 TEAspoon of phenibut into a glass of tart lemondae (tart, tart lemonade masks the disgusting taste).
wait like an hour and a half
repeat first step only using 1/8 teaspoon this time.
If this does not work for swiy, try upping the second dose to 1/4 tsp, same as the first.
If this doesnt work, try again, don't be too quick to up the doseage. Too much phenibut is a really uncomfortable experience, but that goldilocks dosage makes one real cool, sexy, and relaxed.

Reputation Comments on this post:

good info, nice report

[Stingray_313]

It definately causes a tolerance, but with swim bring a college student, he only uses it on weekends when theres fun to be had. Nothing like 1g of phenibut and a bottomless red solo cup so start your evening D

[Lehendakari]

Does anybody's marmoset use Phenibut for social enhancement? i.e does it help with social anxiety like GHB does??

[eltimmy]

Phenibut can be useful as a GABA substance, but for some reason (as others have mentioned) tolerance and habituation set in extremely rapidly. The rebound as SWIM has experienced it can be dire (note that SWIM always gets an acute withdrawal from benzodiazepines as well).

Regarding withdrawing, I guess it doesn't need to be said but I'll reiterate that with GABA substances one should really titrate your dose downward, if at all possible. Else face toxicity. SWIM thinks this is a good strategy even for one-off use. A tiny dose at the end of the evening, or the next morning ...

IMO they're all usually more trouble than they're worth. Alcohol included.

[eltimmy]

SWIM went from 500 mg to 100 mg of phenobarbital in roughly two weeks. The phenobarbital completely eliminated the w/d symptoms. Yes barbs suck and barbiturate addiction is probably the worst addiction there is, but they have their uses. It takes time to build tolerance to barbs as well. SWIM had no problem stopping the pheno after two weeks.

Yeah, at least they don't have the potential of withdrawals taking months, like benzodiazepines. Congrats on successfully managing your problem, that's how you do.

[Niteflights]

Certainly! Melatonin has been demonstrated to protect against numerous forms of cerebral oxidative stress. Melatonin is known to be one the the most powerful antioxidants known. Also keep in mind it is synthesized in the brain directly from serotonin. In this regards it actually safeguards the brain from excessive serotonin activity.

Many references to melatonin's neuroprotective effects can be googled:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c...in&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c...ve&btnG=Search

There is an excellent article on erowid reviewing the effectiveness of typical antioxidants in preventing against MDMA induced neurotoxicity. In many cases they are more effective then the earlier researched prozac in this regard. Not to mention they are perfectly safe and healthy in a number of other regards. Melatonin is one of the most powerful and high on the list of Dr. Ward Dean's anti-aging supplements. He is regarded as one of the preeminent authorities on anti-aging research.

So the lesson is if you are going to subject your noggin to unnatural amounts of chemical induced stress... it's a wise maneuver to supplement with a comprehensive anti-oxidant regimen. Vitamin C, R-ALA, melatonin, NAC, hydergine... all are fantastic. Then are the natural occuring ones found in blueberries, red wine, chocolate and other tasty treats!

bon appetit!
andrei

Reputation Comments on this post:

Nice well written reply with awesome info