Phenibut, worth it for relaxation/sleep?

[Nicaine]

SWIM has been over-using benzos and sleep meds lately, and is looking for something a bit more sustainable he can use to help "come down" from stimulants or just help him relax/get to sleep at night. Is phenibut worthwhile in this department? SWIM is not particularly interested in getting high, just relaxation/drowsiness and perhaps mild euphoria. Phenibut is a bit on the expensive side (& SWIM's funds are gonna be overextended this month), so he doesn't want to just get some without looking into how worthwhile it is first.

How does phenibut compare to say - Kava? Definitely more potent? On the converse, how does it compare to a prescription muscle relaxant like Soma? *Way* weaker, or does it hold its own in some ways? Thanks for any info.

[snapper]

Phenibut is effective against mild anxiety, but SWIM does not feel it is sedating, and has side effects associated with higher doses. It would be very unlikely to overwhelm comedown effects of a stimulant.
SWIM mixes with GABA and l-theanine but even then it is not especially sedating. If SWIY already has benzos and ambien, this stuff is useless in comparison.

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by snapper

Phenibut is effective against mild anxiety, but SWIM does not feel it is sedating, and has side effects associated with higher doses. It would be very unlikely to overwhelm comedown effects of a stimulant.
SWIM mixes with GABA and l-theanine but even then it is not especially sedating. If SWIY already has benzos and ambien, this stuff is useless in comparison.

Hmm... some people say it's a really good high combined with alcohol (which SWIM rarely drinks, but if it were a matter of synergy with another substance he would consider it).

[snapper]

Read about the hangovers afterwards. Those who report gaba effects are taking high doses, and those last a long time and have quite an aftereffect. The great thing about GHB and friends is that when they wore off, SWIM felt refreshed and awake thanks to the dopamine rebound, and never had a hangover, even after excessive use (except sometimes too much dopamine rebound, esp. w/ GBL).

[garbled]

All indications are that phenibut is more trouble than its worth. And, it too can be habit forming. The mild euphoric feeling you encounter with it quickly vanishes as your tolerance will go through the roof in very short order. And the withdrawals, for some people, have been worse than GHB. Someone actually posted to a.d.g recently looking for advice on using GBL/GHB to overcome the withdrawal symptoms foomr phenibut, it that's not a twist.

If you want to get some sleep after stimulants, nothing knocked me out like G, but that damned dopamine rebound had me awake again in 4 hours. My best friends turned out to be 2mg Xanax bars or Ambien. Might I recommend a goodly dose of melatonin and valarian? The key here is going to end up to be moderation, for all. But skip the phenibut.

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by garbled

If you want to get some sleep after stimulants, nothing knocked me out like G, but that damned dopamine rebound had me awake again in 4 hours.

Actually, 4 hours may be better than standard-release Ambien tends to do (2-3 hours, although that's not consistent and sometimes one will sleep through the night).

My best friends turned out to be 2mg Xanax bars or Ambien.

Interesting... SWIM reacts idiosyncratically to both benzos and sedative-hypnotics. Basically, he never gets drowsy from benzos and might even feel a little stimulated and have trouble sleeping. OTOH, Ambien (in small doses) feels so euphoric/relaxing to him that he's at risk of addiction from it... in other words, aside from the added drowsiness it appears to feel to SWIM like a benzo does to most people.

Might I recommend a goodly dose of melatonin and valarian? The key here is going to end up to be moderation, for all. But skip the phenibut.

Thanks for the recco... SWIM has already used melatonin and it helps sometimes (but not always), valerian seems too weak to be useful. He will definitely skip the phenibut tho and save his money.

[Nicaine]

SWIM wanted to check this out one more time before he gives up on it. His tolerance to Ambien has been skyrocketing, he's gonna be running out soon and facing two+ weeks of utter sleepless hell. SWIM thinks he will be picking up some phenibut out of desperation, as it will get to the point where "anything that helps him sleep" is going up on a pedestal, no matter how nasty it might be otherwise..

[Lehendakari]

Phenibut is great the first 2 times and always mixed with alcohol. In any other case is useless. Swim doesn't find it sedating, although he slept very well on it. The "afterglow" in the morning was also great very good mood and happiness. This happened only the first few doses and breaks didn't help.

Phenibut was a very pleasant discovery for swim, and it quickly turned into deception. He also had picamilon, a compound which is claimed to be wonderful, smart-drug, anti-aging, neuroprotective bla bla bla, it was fine for a time but effects also dimished quickly. Even insane doses didn't produce any effect.

Swim would recommend SwiNicaine tetrazepam, a benzo with strong muscle-relaxant properties that always puts swim in a very relaxed state and eventually falls asleep deeply. Also codeine, ghb, valerian, weed are good for SwiNicaine's purposes

[garbled]

Originally Posted by Nicaine

SWIM wanted to check this out one more time before he gives up on it. His tolerance to Ambien has been skyrocketing, he's gonna be running out soon and facing two+ weeks of utter sleepless hell. SWIM thinks he will be picking up some phenibut out of desperation, as it will get to the point where "anything that helps him sleep" is going up on a pedestal, no matter how nasty it might be otherwise..

Don't end up replacing one nightmare with another. There is no magic bullet for sleep when messing around with stimulants long term. Eventually the dopamine will overtake even the most resourceful sleep aid.

If the recommendations of the other poster above this doesn't work, SWIM'd just try a combination of alcohol and/or GBL/GHB (used properly). But SWIMs GOT to take a break in there somewhere to get the system stablized again.

Ambien is very habit forming and the tolerance builds fast. 7 days is about the max. When SWIM was going through the worst GHB withdrawals and the dopamine rebound was making sleep impossible, he could take 6-8 Sominex with zero response. Not even a yawn. Half a 1.75 liter of Old Thompson rock gut bourbon and SWIM was sleeping like a baby.

SWIM routinely would take 2ml GBL (per 100 lb body weight) with vodka as a nighty-night tonic. He didn't wake up during the night. 7-8 hours straight. Get licquored up, took a 4ml shot (he was 200lb) and it was night-night time within 15 minutes.

Alcohol is cheaper, legal and easier to kick than a benzo habit.

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by garbled

Don't end up replacing one nightmare with another. There is no magic bullet for sleep when messing around with stimulants long term. Eventually the dopamine will overtake even the most resourceful sleep aid.

If the recommendations of the other poster above this doesn't work, SWIM'd just try a combination of alcohol and/or GBL/GHB (used properly). But SWIMs GOT to take a break in there somewhere to get the system stablized again.

SWIM is officially on an extended stimulant break, out of necessity... he feels so sh*tty that he's scared to death of what might happen if he tweaks any more. He'll have to take a break from Ambien too, as he only has two 10mg tablets left and three weeks until he can get a refill. Likely no worries about seizures (he's got clonazepam too, and a bottle of Trileptal for real emergencies, e.g. running out of clonazepam) but it's not gonna feel good.

SWIM ordered a combo product called "MRM Relax-All" that contains phenibut and some other stuff... here's hoping...

Ambien is very habit forming and the tolerance builds fast. 7 days is about the max. When SWIM was going through the worst GHB withdrawals and the dopamine rebound was making sleep impossible, he could take 6-8 Sominex with zero response. Not even a yawn. Half a 1.75 liter of Old Thompson rock gut bourbon and SWIM was sleeping like a baby.

SWIM has been taking Ambien at higher than normal dosage/frequency for over two months. His tolerance is surprisingly not THAT high (about 30mg now does for him what 10mg used to do), but he has graduated to using it on and off during the day in smaller doses.

Alcohol is cheaper, legal and easier to kick than a benzo habit.

It's also a dirty, stinky, crude and primitive high (apologies to anyone who enjoys it... SWIM likes the taste of beer, but that's about it).

[garbled]

Originally Posted by Nicaine

SWIM has been taking Ambien at higher than normal dosage/frequency for over two months. His tolerance is surprisingly not THAT high (about 30mg now does for him what 10mg used to do), but he has graduated to using it on and off during the day in smaller doses.

WHAT? I thought we were talking about something to make you sleep? Are you taking Ambien during the day just to take the edge off of stimulant withdrawal/sleepless jitters?

Originally Posted by Nicaine

It's also a dirty, stinky, crude and primitive high (apologies to anyone who enjoys it... SWIM likes the taste of beer, but that's about it).

Again, products that can get you to sleep was what I thought we were talking about, not getting high. My impression was that you were tweaking too much, had disturbed your normal sleep cycle and were trying to get on a regular sleep cycle again.

If you are looking for products that can get you to sleep until your body recovers from excess stimulant usage, then alcohol is one of the cheapest, legal alternatives.

If you are looking to replace tweaking with a new high, then I don't have much advice.

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by garbled

WHAT? I thought we were talking about something to make you sleep? Are you taking Ambien during the day just to take the edge off of stimulant withdrawal/sleepless jitters?

No, I'm not taking Ambien at all. My friend SWIM however was using them during the day not to take the edge off anything, but specifically to get high. He finds them euphoric/relaxing in lower doses. He was also taking them at night at higher doses to sleep.

Again, products that can get you to sleep was what I thought we were talking about, not getting high. My impression was that you were tweaking too much, had disturbed your normal sleep cycle and were trying to get on a regular sleep cycle again.

Your impression of me is utterly wrong... I don't get high. You must have been thinking of someone else.

...then I don't have much advice.

Good... move along.

Reputation Comments on this post:

solliciting gbl sources through pm

[~lostgurl~]

Originally Posted by garbled

Are you taking Ambien during the day just to take the edge off of stimulant withdrawal/sleepless jitters?

SWIM has started to take lower doses of Zopiclone/Immovane during the day when she gets anxiety as she no longer has klonapin. When the anxiety gets too much and SWIM has nothing else to take..... Not a good practice, but it works... half a pill and swims anxiety improves, a whole one and swim might doze off. Last night SWIM took 3 for sleep and slept 10 hours, and she hasn't slept that long in a long time (even when she takes 3 or more). The biggest problem is SWIM's rx is going to run out too soon and this is a huge worry to SWIM.

[snapper]

Nicaine - given SWIYs monkey's personalities, don't ever try GHB unless your monkeys cannot get more. Your monkeys may like dopamine now, but will hate it if they start to use habitually and experience a protracted rebound.
There are some ethnobotanicals which may help. THP which is found in Corydalis rhizomes, is very sedating. There are also others plants out there which can help, though they are not as strong as ambien. SWIMs OTC sleep formula is Corydalis, red poppy petals, phenibut 500 mg, l-theanine 1 g, gaba 1 g, a strong dose of kava root and whatever other mild sleep aid is around (ie-skullcap, valarian, etc), and occasionally some alcohol to top it off. This tends to knock SWIM out. The kava and corydalis are the strongest ingredients. PM if you need sources, or do a websearch. All above are legal in US. SWIM has tried lots of other sleep aids with mixed results. Kratom seems to induce severe lethargy after initial effects wear off too and actually cause SWIM to sleep too much.

[bewilderment]

As far as sleep is concerned (not relaxing) swim often finds OTC meds like Diphenhydramine or Doxylamine Succinate help more than benzos (she has a tolerance) or ambien--but, then again, ambien never helped her insomnia in the first place. That is, these work so long as one hasn't taken them recently. It seems that, at least for swim, they will only work two consequative nights. So, she usually switches between the Diphenhydramine and Doxylamine every one or two days and that seems to prevent the tolerance--which luckily goes away within about two days. And, enough seroquel will almost always knock her out (she usually only takes 50-100mg), but the downside is that it usually makes her sleepy the entire day afterwards but that's alleviated with the use of most stimulants that are at least stronger than caffeine.

[darawk]

SWIM uses phenibut semi-regularly. It's a nice high at the right dosage IMO, but it can get a little weird at the real high doses. As a sleep aid, I guess it would work, but it's not really a good choice. It's not so much that you have a hangover from it as that you are still tripping when you wake up. Every time SWIM's done phenibut, he wakes up and is still high for a good 3-4 hours into the next day.

[~lostgurl~]

yeah, swim was worried about tolerance when she was taking 3-5 pills to sleep at night, but she usually balanced it out by having an all-nighter on meth. but she has now stopped her meth use, and her intake of zopiclone seems to be growing at an alarming rate. SWIM did find the small doses of Taurine found in her e2 drinks helped with anxiety and she is going to definatley look into Taurine in larger doses, and will likely give melatonin a try as SWIN has had some positive things to say about it.... maybe the combination will help get her zopiclone doses back to normal. One can only hope......

[darawk]

Originally Posted by ~lostgurl~

yeah, swim was worried about tolerance when she was taking 3-5 pills to sleep at night, but she usually balanced it out by having an all-nighter on meth. but she has now stopped her meth use, and her intake of zopiclone seems to be growing at an alarming rate. SWIM did find the small doses of Taurine found in her e2 drinks helped with anxiety and she is going to definatley look into Taurine in larger doses, and will likely give melatonin a try as SWIN has had some positive things to say about it.... maybe the combination will help get her zopiclone doses back to normal. One can only hope......

I've heard that the combination of ambien and melatonin produces some extremely odd dreams if you fall asleep...

[Nicaine]

SWIM took three "MRM Relax-All" (phenibut + a few other things) capsules last night, and didn't notice much effect. He took another three this morning and is now noticing a definite nootropic effect... SWIM is relaxed, slightly euphoric and very alert, even though he was up all night last night. He's not really feeling the lack of sleep. So far so good... he may take another couple of these capsules before the day is out, to see if a higher dose has any additional benefits.

Looks like this stuff may come in handy more to stay alert when lacking proper sleep than helping SWIM get to sleep. Whatever, if so it was worth the money.

[snapper]

SWIM has noticed this effect from phenibut, but it is sort of like kratom - a little unpredictable.
It has never made SWIM drowsy, but it does help with the anxiety SWIM got from withdrawal and excessive rebound when using GBL, and subsequently with anxiety attacks whenever they came on. SWIM did, in retrospect, have a period of about 6 months of more easily triggered anxiety after stopping GHB et al., but those are long gone and SWIM is only left with insomnia. For that, phenibut is useless unless there is a component of anxiety.
SWIM finds that 500-1000mg is perfect for stopping an anxiety attack, and unlike almost anything else, allows SWIM to continue working with no cognitive impairment - if anything, it does seem to be somewhat nootropic, though since SWIM takes other nootropics regularly, it is hard to quantify that aspect of it. In high doses (2+ grams) it is said to have some of the effects of GHB, but more long lasting and with a hangover. SWIM has no interest in a crappy GHB substitute and has not pushed the dose up.
If SWIYs monkey likes it, it is much cheaper as a bulk powder. Combining with GABA and L-theanine makes it a little more sedating, but SWIM finds none of these esp. good for inducing sleep. GABA is better for its growth hormone releasing and prolactin suppression abilities than to induce sleep. This is also cheap in bulk, and does not seem to have much of a hangover in large doses.
Corydalis roots are good for knocking out. The active ingredient, tetrahydrapalmitine is toxic to the liver with frequent use, but in a normal individual with no liver disease or bad liver-stressing habits, it works and is safe on an intermittent basis. It is legal and a component of chinese medicine. It is easy to find.

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by snapper

SWIM has noticed this effect from phenibut, but it is sort of like kratom - a little unpredictable.
It has never made SWIM drowsy, but it does help with the anxiety SWIM got from withdrawal and excessive rebound when using GBL, and subsequently with anxiety attacks whenever they came on.

SWIM is hoping it'll help with rebound anxiety & sleeplessness from over-use (and subsequent early depletion) of Ambien, as that's the issue he's currently dealing with. He's noticed a minor withdrawal syndrome with Ambien that's a bit opiate-like and involves chills, sweating, anxiety and abdominal pain. SWIM does keep the lid on his Ambien use below insane levels and is also on Klonopin, so he's not worried about seizures and such.

Anyway, he's currently experimenting with this MRM Relax-All stuff in terms of dosages and such. So far it seems 2-4 capsules is good, followed by another 2-4 several hours later. Phenibut seems to be decent but fairly mild stuff at non-insane dosages... SWIM can understand how trying to get high off it might cause people problems.

[Blur]

Yes, please don't abuse this stuff. It may seem mild but tolerance sets in quickly. SWIM just quit a 8 gram a day/6 month habit and it was just like GBL withdrawal. And unlike most drugs, where taking more will alleviate withdrawal symptoms, you hit a wall where taking more of this stuff makes the dopamine rebound and withdrawals worse. Then you are completely screwed. You can have seizures, go into convulsions and die. Best case scenario: strapped to a chair in the psych ward pumped full of pentobarbital and shaking like a leaf for a month. Luckily SWIM had access to a large stash of phenobarbital to taper off with. Phenibut works on the GABA-B receptor, whereas benzos work on the GABA-A receptor. And sure enough, benzos won't do squat when you're in phenibut, ghb, or gbl withdrawal. Phenobarbital bypasses the gaba receptors and directly opens the neural ion channel, decreasing firing frequency and preventing seizures, convulsions, etc. Pheno should be gotten off as soon as possible also though, as you build tolerance to it, but SWIM had no problem coming off a 2 week taper. SWIM hates the current drug laws but this stuff is just the next ghb, ordered straight from the health food store, seemingly safe. SWIM would like to see it off the market. Many will disagree. Maybe SWIM just had an unusual reaction to it. It did obliterate social anxiety better than any benzo just like ghb though. It also had an MDMA component to it as well (weak).

Reputation Comments on this post:

good contribution, excellent info

[Blur]

Originally Posted by Blur

Yes, please don't abuse this stuff. It may seem mild but tolerance sets in quickly. SWIM just quit a 8 gram a day/6 month habit and it was just like GBL withdrawal. And unlike most drugs, where taking more will alleviate withdrawal symptoms, you hit a wall where taking more of this stuff makes the dopamine rebound and withdrawals worse. Then you are completely screwed. You can have seizures, go into convulsions and die. Best case scenario: strapped to a chair in the psych ward pumped full of pentobarbital and shaking like a leaf for a month. Luckily SWIM had access to a large stash of phenobarbital to taper off with. Phenibut works on the GABA-B receptor, whereas benzos work on the GABA-A receptor. And sure enough, benzos won't do squat when you're in phenibut, ghb, or gbl withdrawal. Phenobarbital bypasses the gaba receptors and directly opens the neural ion channel, decreasing firing frequency and preventing seizures, convulsions, etc. Pheno should be gotten off as soon as possible also though, as you build tolerance to it, but SWIM had no problem coming off a 2 week taper. SWIM hates the current drug laws but this stuff is just the next ghb, ordered straight from the health food store, seemingly safe. SWIM would like to see it off the market. Many will disagree. Maybe SWIM just had an unusual reaction to it. It did obliterate social anxiety better than any benzo just like ghb though. It also had an MDMA component to it as well (weak).

Just to clarify:
Again, SWIM was abusing this stuff and not paying attention to the quick increase in tolerance. Don't use continuously and as always YMMV. It probably is safe and effective if used intelligently.

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by Blur

Yes, please don't abuse this stuff. It may seem mild but tolerance sets in quickly. SWIM just quit a 8 gram a day/6 month habit and it was just like GBL withdrawal. And unlike most drugs, where taking more will alleviate withdrawal symptoms, you hit a wall where taking more of this stuff makes the dopamine rebound and withdrawals worse.

SWIM can respect GABA-ergic substances (and tries to), but when does dopamine rebound occur with phenibut? SWIM has noticed nothing of the kind, at least at 500mg to 1g daily doses. In fact he notices only anxiety disappearing and his moods evening out (no 'high' of any kind) and hasn't yet observed the stuff wearing off... it seems to happen imperceptibly. Maybe his doses are too low for what SWIY mentions? Or perhaps the other substances in MRM Relax-All (Jujube, Magnolia bark, L-Theanine, Valerian) are masking phenibut's rebound effect.

P.S. as long as phenibut remains legal, SWIM doesn't think withdrawals should be a problem as long as a person is able to taper their dosage. Combine that with other downers like kava/corydalis (or emergency benzos) and SWIM is puzzled as to why anyone would worry. Is he missing something?

And sure enough, benzos won't do squat when you're in phenibut, ghb, or gbl withdrawal.

OK, SWIM did miss that. But tapering + something out of the large variety of downers out there surely should do the trick in most cases (?).

Phenobarbital bypasses the gaba receptors and directly opens the neural ion channel, decreasing firing frequency and preventing seizures, convulsions, etc.

Ion channels/seizures, eh... screw barbitures, sounds like Trileptal, Topamax, Depakote etc. would be better choices, as they're basically nonaddictive & have no pleasant qualities. Trileptal in lower doses is supposed to be fairly light on side effects. SWIM finds many doctors are either very understanding or just don't give a damn as long as the patient's request is not considered addictive. Just a tip for anyone with a serious phenibut habit who may be reading this.

[Blur]

Nicaine:
SWIM started out filling 00 gelatin capsules (~800 mg phenibut), and took them as a sleep aid off and on for ~2-3 months. There was also the occasional rec dose thrown in maybe twice a week (~2 grams or so). SWIM had no problem stopping or skipping days until about month 4 of regular usage. At first dopamine rebound appears in the form of early awakening after a few hours sleep. Another sign is feeling totally refreshed when you shouldn't (like after only sleeping 3 hours). Also, SWIM would have to take another dose (which takes about an hour to kick in to get back to sleep) At this point, SWIM was taking ~2-3 grams a day (most of it at night) for sleep. Later SWIM progressed to a 2-3 gram dose for sleep plus rec dosing during the day (total ~5 grams daily). Tolerance steadily increased for the next 3-4 months and SWIM finally topped out at 8 grams a day. This was when dopamine rebound was readily noticeable. SWIM dosed every three hours to avoid intense anxiety, and shaking. SWIM also had to wake up twice a night to dose to fall back asleep. This stuff seems to exert it's effect for only 2-3 hours when taken long enough or in high enough doses to produce dependence.

Then SWIM hit the wall and that is when the TSHTF. Doses that would normally hold swim for 3 hours and hold the dopamine rebound at bay did nothing at first, and then made the rebound worse. Symptoms are anxiety, shaking, twitching, and one time an intense dopamine rush (actually felt like ~100 mg adderall for about 30 mins but then quickly turned to intense anxiety, paranoia, and full blown panic attacks).

This is the point where SWIM took 20 mg of clonazepam to no effect. SWIM acquired some phenobarbital and immediately took 300 mg. Relief came in about an hour. SWIM went from 500 mg to 100 mg of phenobarbital in roughly two weeks. The phenobarbital completely eliminated the w/d symptoms. Yes barbs suck and barbiturate addiction is probably the worst addiction there is, but they have their uses. It takes time to build tolerance to barbs as well. SWIM had no problem stopping the pheno after two weeks.

SWIY mentioned not observing the stuff wearing off. SWIM had the same experience in the beginning. A dose taken the previously evening was felt well into the next day. At the very end, SWIM was lucky to have the effect last 3 hours, and then ultimately no effect followed by the opposite effect. For a "high", SWIM used anywhere from 2-4 grams in the first few months. SWIM would recommend starting on the low end at first though. SWIM rememebers SWIM's early rec doses as being pretty powerful. Swim couldn't walk straight, had zero social anxiety, talkativeness, etc. SWIM's first high dose made SWIM sick as hell though (~5 g). Swim vomited a few hours after the dose and felt like utter shit the following day. Same dose a day later and SWIM felt great *shrug*.

"Ion channels/seizures, eh... screw barbitures, sounds like Trileptal, Topamax, Depakote etc. would be better choices, as they're basically nonaddictive & have no pleasant qualities. Trileptal in lower doses is supposed to be fairly light on side effects."

SWIM knows nothing of these drugs mechanisms of action so SWIM won't comment. Phenobarbital isn't pleasant to SWIM but it was a godsend for getting off phenibut. If SWIY doesn't use phenibut every night to get to sleep and watches out for tolerance development, SWIY should be fine.

SWIM uses melatonin now, something SWIM used to laugh at.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	good job, that's how you do :)
	Thanks for sharing.