Buprenorphine Basics (suboxone/subutex) for detox from opiates

[anabolictrio]

Hi,
after a lot of failed attempts to quite heroin Swim finally decided to start an official treatment to escape this crappy situation...

Swim will start a subutex treatment next week under supervision...
Swim want to know what happen to your brain when you take your first dose of subutex.
Does subutex satisfy your hunger?
Someone told that subutex is somehow antidepressant. Is that true?
Please share your experiences. Swim in need
thanks.

[Forthesevenlakes]

buprenorphine (in subutex) is a partial opiate agoinst. it does not affect the serotonin receptors like conventional anti-depressants. however it may keep swiy from being depressed in that it will keep swiy from going through withdrawal.

it satisfies some people's cravings too since it binds the opioid receptors. SWIY will probably not get high, but swiy will not withdraw, either. and if other opioids are taken, they will not be able to bind since the subutex blocks them, and swiy will not get high from those either.

when the first dose is taken, swiy will be withdrawing from other opioids. the subutex is usually given sublingually, and swiy will notice a relief of withdrawal symptoms. the buprenorphine will bind the opioid receptors for a lengthy time (24-36 hours if swim's not mistaken) but will out-compete other opioids for binding to the receptor, including a 2nd dose of subutex. basically its a way to keep swiy from feeling awful while at the same time keeping swiy from using more heroin, since it will be impossible to get high.

[anabolictrio]

thanks!
it seems so impossible that anything can stop this hunger...
Swim will post a full report as soon as he starts this treatment.

OT:
do not understimate heroin as swim did.
even if you are experienced drug user and even if the very first time heroin seems not so addictive. please be carefull.
In the past swim described heroin as a "light drug" as something you can deal with...also on this board. Swim was terribly wrong and he regrets about this fault.
Swim has throwed his money away, he is almost ready for suicide... and the "honey moon" with heroin ends soon.

[anabolictrio]

after almost 2 days of cold tourkey, Swim started his subutex treatment.
Swim received his first dose of subutex 2 hours ago.
The doctor stated that 6 mg. are a good dose to start with.
Swim doesn't know if it's a high or low dose.

After 2 hours swim is feeling relatively well, very well if compared to 2 hours ago,but not as well if he had smoked a good foil of heroin.
Swim feels really well psychologically, he is quite happy and relaxed.
Anyway he is still tired,weak and he feels like is legs are frozen...
He start feeling hungry...that's good,definitively a good sign!
Swim is faithful for the future, he don't likes the fact that he has to go the doctor to take his daily dose of subutex every single day, but that's the rule...
Swim hope that tomorrow with the second dose of subutex everything gonna be alright or at least that he will be able to go to work.

By the time Swim smokes a good joint of charas....

[Forthesevenlakes]

Let the doctors know if your SWIY is still feeling withdrawal symptoms even with the subutex. Subutex is a very long acting drug, so perhaps it will take longer for the effects to become apparent to SWIY. However, if by the time of the next dose SWIY is still feeling weak and having physical withdrawals, mention this to the doctor. Perhaps they need to titrate the dose a bit. But it takes a lot of courage to quit, SWIM is proud of SWIY for taking this step. Its not easy to kick, but it can be done, and SWIY will find that each day gets easier. Take care man.

[Forthesevenlakes]

SWIY is doing all the right things to help avoid cravings, it sounds like. Keeping busy is very important, since many times what can lead a person to relapse is simply boredom. Activities and work are great! SWIY should also try to exercise. It might be hard to move those aching muscles and bones at first, but even just going for a short 20 minute walk can help a bit. Increase the time and intensity as SWIY begins to feel better. Many times, people addicted to opiates do not eat as much as they normally would, so when they kick junk, their appetite returns in full force. This can lead to weight gain, so the exercise will help prevent this as well. Oddly enough some people eat MORE on opiates (SWIM is thinking about Rush Limbaugh and Hermann Goering, here), but either way, exercise is great for taking the mind off craving, and for assisting in the complete path to recovery. Has SWIY been hanging out with non-using friends, too? That is important as well. Many times junk can become an integral part of one's social life, and SWIY needs to learn as quickly as he can that he can have fun and hang out with his friends while not using heroin. However since the urge to use can easily be brought back at this point, SWIY should stay away from heroin using friends, or being in situations or environments where SWIY has done H in the past, which SWIY associates strongly with H, or where SWIY might encounter H. These things could also induce powerful cravings, if not actual withdrawal symptoms! Only after a great span of time and effort can SWIY trust himself to hang out with H-using friends without going back to the drug, but for right now make it easy on SWIYself and avoid them; if they're true friends they will understand why. Hang in there, SWIY is doing great, and SWIM knows SWIY can make it.

[Subuser]

SWIM was abusing Vicodin for about a year. SWIM was up to 350 mgs a day and finally went into the hospital to detox with Suboxone.
They started him on 8mg a day but SWIM could not take the foggy feeling that came with it.
SWIM has decreased the dosage every two days so that now he is on 1mg per day.
Since the first day of Suboxone his anxiety has been through the roof. SWIM wants to stop using the Suboxone altogether as soon as posssible.
SWIM has been taking as much as 1 mg of Xanax a day for 3 days.
Any suggestions?

[anabolictrio]

dunno...
Swim didn't feel any anxiety during subutex treatment (but he has only just begun).
Just a bit of melancholy and sadness... But that's normal considering the whole situation. Sometimes he couldn't get to sleep...
Swim talk with his doctor about this insomnia,the doctor told swim that is not a good idea to take benzos with subu, this can lead to a depressive state.
Swim already experienced benzos cold turkey. In some ways it's worse then heroin withdrawal.
A rich mineral supplement may help you : magnesium,zinc,calcium... vit b6, b12. Swim found that melatonin is great for insomnia and anxiety.
Give it a try and gradually quit xanax!
It may look like a dull answer but a good walk or a bike ride could help you more then a thousand of pills...
It would be stupid to kick an addiction and have a new one.

Today Swim took is 3rd dose of subutex: 10mg.
Swim thinks that this dose is a bit too high. He is slightly stoned,shivers of opiate pleasure... and that will last 24hours! ^_^
Swim obviously doesn't dislike this... but that's not the reason why he started this treatment.
If he had took that for recreational purpose he would have took another couple of pills.
Monday swim will talk with his doctor to decide how to do with the dosage.

[Forthesevenlakes]

The dosage will also be decreased over time, keep in mind. While 10 mg might give SWIY a buzz feeling now, that amount will soon be 8 mg, then less. But by all means, talk to the doctor if SWIY feels the dosage is off.

[anabolictrio]

everything keep going very well.
Except for Swim is not in the very best of health.
Accordly to his doctor because of heroin Swim has developed a lot of allergies.
He has never suffered before this kind of disorder.
Now he his allergic to dust,sun, fur..... and maybe other....
He has a wheezy cough,asthmatic crysis,if he touchs his pet rat he gets itching pimple on the skin... he gets the same pimple if he try to tan, or use a sunlamp...
well... that's a real pain in the arse.
The doctor is quite sure that everything is related to heroin,he told it's quite common... and that this condition is probably irreversible.

Swim has to do some skin test to check what he is really allergic...
By the other side he is going on very well with the terapy. The doctor give him a dose of 12 mg. of subutex everyday, but Swim prefer to take only 8 mg...and save the other 4 mg. for better days.
Subutex works great... swim really like its effect, its somehow better then street heroin!

[jloops]

Originally Posted by anabolictrio

everything keep going very well.
Except for Swim is not in the very best of health.
Accordly to his doctor because of heroin Swim has developed a lot of allergies.
He has never suffered before this kind of disorder.
Now he his allergic to dust,sun, fur..... and maybe other....
He has a wheezy cough,asthmatic crysis,if he touchs his pet rat he gets itching pimple on the skin... he gets the same pimple if he try to tan, or use a sunlamp...
well... that's a real pain in the arse.
The doctor is quite sure that everything is related to heroin,he told it's quite common... and that this condition is probably irreversible.

Swim has to do some skin test to check what he is really allergic...
By the other side he is going on very well with the terapy. The doctor give him a dose of 12 mg. of subutex everyday, but Swim prefer to take only 8 mg...and save the other 4 mg. for better days.
Subutex works great... swim really like its effect, its somehow better then street heroin!

Sorry to dig this up (well, I'm not sorry, but if it bothers you then I'm sorry), but I keep reading about people being told insane garbage by their doctors, and this is right up there with some of the all-time worst. (Another great one? "Suboxone is repairing your receptors." Maybe compared to inconsistent opiate use that has the user getting high and withdrawing repeatedly, but it does nothing that a steady supply of any opiate wouldn't do to normalize one's physiology. WTF do they think when they tell people this stuff?)

Come on now, this is absurd.

Heroin doesn't magically cause people to develop allergies to all manner of things!

I'm not criticizing you for entertaining this possibility -- after all, it was told to you by a "professional" -- but your doctor is a real douche bag for making up this bull***.

Why did he say it? To scare you from taking heroin most likely... either that, or he watched one too many after-school specials and is now convinced that illegal drugs can cause any health problem known to man... Neither makes his dishonesty/incompetence acceptable.

(Of course, smoking heroin could cause respiratory problems, and the general physiological stress of inconsistent opiate use and withdrawal, as well as the introduction of buprenorphine could cause an allergic reaction or make you more likely to experience allergies. Then again, your doctor never said that, he claimed that heroin [AFTER you stopped using it!] mysteriously gave you a horde of allergies. Most importantly, whatever the cause, there's no reason to think that any of these effects, including the allergies, would be permanent!)

[Forthesevenlakes]

Heroin and other opiates/opioids can cause a systemic histamine release which leads to the characteristic "itch" of the drugs. Wonder if this has played any role in developing the allergies, or if they are actually a reaction to the subutex. Also, kicking opiates can cause a runny nose and many cold/flu like symptoms which could be interpreted as allergies.

True allergies can only have their symptoms controlled, but many allergies seem to go away after some time due to the shuffling of genes that encode antigens that initiate the allergic response. So even if the allergies are real, take heart that they can disappear after a few years.

[anabolictrio]

no problems so far...
Swim keep going on with the therapy.
Swim has cut his daily dose of subutex to 6 mg. without any particular withdrawal symptoms.
The doctor still give him 12 mg everyday...
Swim plan to cut his dose to 4 mg. this weekend.

By the way swim is still suffering from bronchial asthma,possibly related to subutex or past heroin abuse. He is taking cortisone to avoid respiratory spasms.
Every week Swim has to urinate with a nurse behind his back that checks that he is not cheating with drug test.
That's really embarassing... so swim has to drink some beers before and take a diuretic pill.... sad but true .

Swim has done with Valium and other shitty benzos...
He smokes very slowly , very small amount of good hash.
Swim suffers of "depersonalization", so he must tread carefully with thc.
Anyway hash makes him sleep better , work up his appetite and give him something "drug related" to do ...
Don't know if you understand what swim means

[Mellissa_0202821E_UIR]

What are the possible impacts are there to unborn children if a mother abused on Subutex (a controlled drug banned here in Singapore recently)?

MELLISSA 0202821E UIR

[just jen 2010]

I was on 16mg of suboxone when I was pregnant and the orange taste made me throw up because I was so sensitive to things...so my doc put me on subutex (same as suboxone minus the bloker) I was told my baby may or may not be born addicted. He was. Suboxone has such a long half life that on the thrid day when my husband and I took our little bundle of love home, his arms were clenched so rigid they felt like a rock and his fists were clenched and all he did was cry and not sleep. I didn't know what was going on really and after a few hours...my husband insisted the baby was going threw withdrawls so ...i cried and cried then called a center in my area (washington state in USA) and they told me what to do and look for. We had to swaddle him tight like a burritto for 5 or 6 days and held him non stop 24 hours a day. I felt so guilty and horrible I caused this to a little innonicent baby...my doctor never told me what to look for and i felt so fu$kin mad....our little baby is now 15 months old and fine...just spoiled rotten...and I went back to college and am 6 months away from being a licenced chemical dependcy counsler...one of my books is called "uppers, downers, and all arounders" its awsome cause it's like a drug bible...it tells you things about every single drug in the world and stuff doctors do not tell you. I learned suboxone is "50 times stronger than heroin" woooooooowwwww
end of story but what ever drug you do...definately crosses the blood barrier of a childs brain because it is not totally formed untill the age of three....suboxone will get into your unborn childs brain but whatever opiate you do will too.

just jen 2010 added 28 Minutes and 36 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by Mellissa_0202821E_UIR

What are the possible impacts are there to unborn children if a mother abused on Subutex (a controlled drug banned here in Singapore recently)?

MELLISSA 0202821E UIR

I was on 16mg while I was pregnant, and because the brain blood barier in a fetus or child is not fully devoloped untill three years old, the baby gets suboxone to his brain. my child was born addicted. because suboxone has such a long half life (adverge 37 hours to get half way out of your body) on the thrid day we brought our son home and he began to withdrawl. His arms were rock hard and clenched, his hands were tight fists, he liked to be swaddled tight like a burrito, he cried 24 hours a day, and my husband and I held him 24 hours a day. This went on for almost a week and I never felt so guilty in my life..I allready felt like a horrible mother because I did this to him, he didn't get to choose to take suboxone, I forced it on him. He is now 15 months and a healthy baby, and now it''s my turn to kick suboxone.

[Forthesevenlakes]

From "Buprenorphine Maintenance in Pregnant Opiate Addicts
Gabriele Fischera, Petra Etzersdorfera, Harald Edera, Reinhold Jagscha, Martin Langerb, Manfred Weningerc"


Opioid maintenance agents such as methadone and slow-release morphine have provided beneficial effects in pregnant opioid-dependent women in both themselves and their child. However, one of the major drawbacks involved with these agents is that they cause an increase in the severity of neonatal abstinence syndrome (NAS) when compared to mothers using heroin. Consequently, a trial was performed to investigate the effects of buprenorphine use during pregnancy. A total of nine pregnant opioid-dependent women were transferred from either a mean daily dose of 39.7 mg methadone or 400 mg slow-release morphine to a mean daily dose of 8.1 mg buprenorphine. The buprenorphine-maintained patients were integrated into an already established outpatient maintenance treatment programme covering all aspects of prenatal and perinatal care. Results demonstrated that buprenorphine administration in opioid-dependent pregnant patients is efficacious and well tolerated. Babies born to buprenorphine-maintained patients had birthweight and Apgar scores within the normal range (2,500-4,500 g and 9-10, respectively) and no evidence of opioid-related NAS was observed. The results from this preliminary study indicate the potential for buprenorphine maintenance therapy in pregnant addicts, although further research is required to confirm this hypothesis.



This study says that further research is needed but that buprenorphine mantainance is well tolerated in the futus, and that abstinence syndrome and underweight babies were not really seen. However one must still be wary when exposing a fetus to any drugs, especially one as new as buprenorphine. Please use caution and talk this over with a doctor before deciding to take ANY drug during pregnancy, both for your sake and the child's!

[anabolictrio]

swim keep tapering down. Now swim takes 4mg every 24 h.
Swim try to space out consumption more and more.
tapering subutex is not really hard, just minor stomach upset and sweat.
anyway the doctor doesn't want to see reason and he is still giving swim 12 mg everyday... ^_^

so swim has stored a huge amount of subutex pills....
swim want to reach a 2 mg. dosage as soon as possible and then going on with that dosage for a couple of months...

subutex is somehow funny and relaxing swim is in good mood, he can smoke hash without anxiety attack...that's cool.

due to subutex consumption swim is chronically constipated ...it seems that no laxative can really solve this problem...

[Forthesevenlakes]

SWIM has noticed that buprenorphine seems to have an antidepressant effect for may, as swiAnabolic has noted. Its different than the euphoria of most opioids, its more subtle and longer-lasting. Lab rats who SWIM knows who are tapering using the same system have noticed that they are in a good mood too, not sure how much of it is due to the drug itself and how much is due to the self-reinforcing feeling of kicking opioids, or moving in the direction of kicking them.

However, from the reports SWIM has heard, buprenorphine is less constipating than other opiates/opioids. But due to its long half life, if it constipates, it will be for an extremely long time. Perhaps talk to SWIY's doctor about what to do for constipation? Usually drinking plenty of water, eating prunes, and/or taking a laxative works for most. But having a lot of water in SWIY's system is key.

[sijay44]

Originally Posted by anabolictrio

Hi,
after a lot of failed attempts to quite heroin Swim finally decided to start an official treatment to escape this crappy situation...

Swim will start a subutex treatment next week under supervision...
Swim want to know what happen to your brain when you take your first dose of subutex.
Does subutex satisfy your hunger?
Someone told that subutex is somehow antidepressant. Is that true?
Please share your experiences. Swim in need
thanks.

hi swim has been using heroin for about 11 years now and in that length of time has only been clean for about 7 months. swim has also been on methadone for the last 8 months or so, taking a 25mg dose everyday. now swim has had enough becuse as well as taking methadone swim is still using around a ten pound bag of heroin a day on the foil. but as from next week swim is also going on to subutex but swim is very worried about withdrawl symptoms as these can be horrendeous. what swim wants to ask you is do you think swim will be ok. my life is in ruins and swim has alot to get clean for including children and a great girlfreind and family so its time to quit. in swiy opinion do you think swim will be ok with the dose of methadone and heroin use???? also its great to hear subutex has worked for you......swim

[sijay44]

hi everyone,swim is just on my second day of a subutex detox. thing is instead of quitting for 48 before starting on the subutex i used right up until the day before starting it. when swim took that first subutex tablet swim felt like shit, but swim has been here many times before and knows the score. swims back is aching like a bastard an swims legs feel heavy and painfull.

to be honest though its not as bad as swims had in the past. at least swim was of the needle and just tooting with the foil.swim has lost all veins in swims arms due to swims 16 year love affair with various types of drug. first cannabis, then the rave scene happend and along came lsd, estacy and speed. of which the latter swim was addicted for a good 4 years, on the needle. then when swim could no longer take any amount of speed without becoming a shadow of swims former self. so when swim quit speed swim had a massive hole in swims life and what was the natural progression for swim?? heroin. and heroin is what has brought swim to his current predicament. swim has had enough of hurting loved ones and killing himself. swim needs to be strong and to dig deep if he is to overcome the trials and tribulations of recovery.

swim has no magic pill to make him sleep, no temazapam or valium. no longer any fine weed, no alcohol becuse swim does not like it at all. all swim has is subutex and partial willpower, and people who love swim (mum,girlfreind,sons and a daughter) so swim has to dig deep. swim esspecialy hates the nights. lying in bed not able to sleep, just hoping the night will end and that swim can get through till morning. but swim has done worse rattles than this and swim knows its only a matter of time before swim starts to feel a little better. but swim also knows he is not on his own and that all over this fine planet alot of people will be in the same dark place as swim, so swim takes comfort in the knowledge that his comrades are also finding the willpower and self control that it takes to overcome heroin addiction. and alls swim can think is thank god swim had the subbies becuse it could of been alot worse as swim knows from experiance.

well its 4 days away from christmas here in the uk and swim knows thats a good time to do a rattle becuse new year is not too far away and swim knows if he stays strong and fights any temptation to heroin then swim is going to have a very very good year indeed. sorry about any mistakes in swims post but swims head is up his arse....if any one else is reading this and is going through the same thing then drop us a post..................cheers and merry x-mas

[Forthesevenlakes]

wise move in waiting 48 hours after opiate use to start the subutex...with strong opioids like heroin, taking subutex can actually precipitate withdrawal if its still in one's system.

this detox will take a LOT of willpower and strength to pull off, even with the help of subutex. valium COULD be a great asset to help one sleep, or perhaps a more readily available and less addictive sleeping alternative like sonata, lunesta, ambien, or even melatonin or valerian root. insomnia is probably one of the most bothersome aspect of heroin detoxing.

keep us posted as to SWIY's progress. is SWIY still experiencing aches and pains from withdrawal with the subutex? and what is SWIY's subutex starting dose and how rapidly is he tapering off, out of curiosity?

[coke430]

SWIM gave me this paper he wrote in first person to post on the forum. Here goes:


To start off I am new to the forum and this is my first Post but before i started my Suboxone program i didnt listen and it was a MAJOR mistake. ok here you go. I strugled with Heroin addiction for about a year during this time the only person i was able to look to for help was my GREAT girlfriend of 2 years. i had hid the addiction from her for 10 months which was when i first tried to kick it cold turkey without anyone knowing or helping i failed. i confided in her and she helped me finally kick it cold turkey with her by my side it was a long painful 4 days and nights but i made it. it was about a year later when i started smoking it again a few times a week thinking i could control it i was wrong and slipped into an even worse addiction for about six months i hated myself for it and was afraid this would be it and i would lose the greatest girl ive ever met and i knew i would never be able to quit without her help. i confesed i had relapsed and had a bigger habbit than the last time. She was very sad and hurt but she was willing to help me get my life back. i tried cold turkey again but it was much worse so we went to a doctor and stated a Suboxone treatment. I was told to wait at least 24hours beofre taking the first dose at 16hours i was in hell and took my first dose and it sent me into a worse withgrawl causing me to have to go to the ER where they put me on clonidine to lower my blood pressure and the withdrawl syptoms it helped enough so i could survive. i am now 2months clean and iff the Suboxone and feeling much better. after the worst withdrawls were done the suboxone would help if i ever got uncomfotable or started to crave and withdrawl. It was a great help. If anyone is gonna use Suboxone or Subutex be sure to wait at least 24hrs since ur last hit before you take a dose. the longer you wait the better 48hrs would be great. If you dont wait 24 hours you can put yourself in a much more painful and scary withdrawls like i did. if you wait it will work great for you. sorry this was so long i just want people to know that taking the Suboxone or Subutex to early makes the withdrawls MUCH WORSE!

[johnnyyen]

Hi,swim found that where methadone was nothing more than a top up when times were hard,getting a script for suboxone did the trick in three days,not sure about having to wait for 48 hours,swim took his first sub lingual tablet 8 hrs after smoking a bag.
swim found that whilst he didnt feel better swim didnt go into deep withdrawal as was feared.
5years band at it @4 bags a day..it took 2 days of mild cramps and chills for the subs to kick in,by day three swim found that all left of the habit was insommnia,a friendly doctor wrote a 7 tab script for 7.5 zopiclones and that took care of the sleep problem..66 days later swim is delighted to say life is starting to get good again..

[sijay44]

Originally Posted by Forthesevenlakes

wise move in waiting 48 hours after opiate use to start the subutex...with strong opioids like heroin, taking subutex can actually precipitate withdrawal if its still in one's system.

this detox will take a LOT of willpower and strength to pull off, even with the help of subutex. valium COULD be a great asset to help one sleep, or perhaps a more readily available and less addictive sleeping alternative like sonata, lunesta, ambien, or even melatonin or valerian root. insomnia is probably one of the most bothersome aspect of heroin detoxing.

keep us posted as to SWIY's progress. is SWIY still experiencing aches and pains from withdrawal with the subutex? and what is SWIY's subutex starting dose and how rapidly is he tapering off, out of curiosity?

hi and thanks for the post, swims starting dose of subutex was 4mg tablet and that went up to 16 mg and swim is still on the 16mg even now, soon it will probably taper down to 8mg and swim will probably keep on that for a while as its the blocking effect swim needs to keep swim safe for the time being. swim is feeling good now and has no withdrawl symptoms at all and life is good again. this is swims fourth time off the gear(heroin) in about 10 years and life is brilliant, swim aims to finish swims foundation degree and to give back to all swims loved ones who swim has hurt and depended on for the last 16 years of drug addiction. and to swims aunty pat who helped swim and supported swim no matter what swim did who is now deceased and didnt see swim get better......god bless you, i love you so so much an will never ever forget you. and to everyone on drugs-forum thank you for being a good source of information and support.....regards

[Forthesevenlakes]

Subutex is actually a very effective way of tapering down from opiates/opioids, in both SWIMs experience and that of many other lab rats he knows. Unlike methadone where one must be on a maintenance program indefinitely before tapering down, and then still suffer some pronounced withdrawals, buprenorphine (subutex) is much more effective in tapering off, since it gives very little in the way of an opiate high to most people with large tolerances, but still functions almost as an antidepressant for them too. Also, another good thing about buprenorphine is that it acts as an antagonist too, so that if someone slips up and does opiates while on buprenorphine, the bupe will block the opiate from working, and thus the user begins to lose the mental association of opiates with a pleasurable sensation.

The one key is, swiNever, try not to have any opioids in the system when taking the buprenorphine. Even kratom, just to be safe. If one still has opiates in them when the buprenorphine is taken, the antagonist aspect of the drug will take over and send one into immediate withdrawal, not unlike that of naloxone. As long as the opiates aren't currently in the body, however, the buprenorphine will act as an agonist and keep the withdrawal symptoms from appearing.

Please keep us up to date on how your lab rat fares with the buprenorphine program, it can serve as a great motivator to help others to quit if they want to.