The "12 steps" are a load of shit

[Sklander]

Originally Posted by Trebor

My uncle went through it, he was drinking again in 2 days. It doesn't work.

That is a pretty weak way of judging whether or not AA works. Come on...

AA and their crazy meetings and gatherings are just a substitue for thier drinking. There are people that "can't" stop drinking or using, even though I think you CAN by just not doing it, but I am not one of those people.

If it works for them that's great. My Uncle is a shining example of what AA can do to a person. He was a raging alcoholic, went to AA, started working the steps and hasn't had a drink since then. It works if you work it, it just may not be for you.

[ketamanic]

Originally Posted by Sklander

TIt works if you work it, it just may not be for you.

That is my belief on NA to a T. I am >3 yrs clean from my DOC, tho occasionaly splurge on some kind of legal substance(awa, kratom, or salvia). I definetly feel like I gained a lot by attending NA for the 2ish years that I did, but in the end it just wasn't for me. I got tired of labeling myself as an addict, and believing I could never truly change my addictive compulsions and obsessions.

This belief held me back from changing a lot of other things about myself, keeping me 'stuck in a rut', still unable to completely connect with others, repeating the same dysfunctional behaviors that I learned as a child over and over again.

Since abandoning the NA group and philosophy, I've openeded up to a wider selection of spiritual philosophy that I feel truly suits me--I always felt like I was BSing everyone when I prayed in a meeting or said "I'm an addict"(correction: I was BSing everyone, I haven't been an 'addict' since the last day I shot dope, and I really DIDN'T want God to grant me anything, especially serenity--as if an 'HP' would even consider granting me something that I already had but chose to ignore out of fear).

In conclusion I pretty much agree with the majority of the comments here, that NA can and has helped many people, but that it isn't necesarily mandatory. At the same time, it should not be written off prematurely.

I only felt truly at ease at an NA meeting for the first year or so into recovery, after that I became quite restless and ready for the next step. I just recently discovered a book called The Thirteenth Step by Tina Tessina. Good read. The focus is for those already in NA/AA and ready for the step beyond life-long meeting addiction.

[Subuser]

A higher power is a pretty simple concept.
Something greater than yourself.
If you have all the answers you wouldn't be an addict.

Reputation Comments on this post:

well put

[omen8productions]

if you had all the answers i don't think you'd be a human.

AA's 12 steps are set up the way they are because the addict's chief problem is dealing with the fact that he isn't god, (the first step being admiting you are out of control, the second acknowleging a higher power, the third turning your life over to that power).

allowing a belief system to form begins to remove the tremendous pressure of having to control everything. it also allows the subject to realize he does not have all the answers.

[Wflash]

SWIM has lost good friends to twelve-stepping. Some of them have even got Narcotics Anonymous tatoos now would you believe.

SWIM considers them lost because they're a million miles from the people he knew before and during addiction. And one or two were pushing the definitions of addiction to their limits before jumping on the "let's talk about me" bandwagon.

And then other folks give SWIM a hard time for slagging off something that's clearly worked for people. And SWIM agrees, feels a bit bad, but still mutters under his breathe that it's a load of total sh*te.

SWIM also still reckons that a lot of this world's problems come down to people looking to find someone else to take responsibility them.

[wildbeast]

As a road to recovery the 12 steps are inefficient and loaded with PITFALLS.

The whole premise of "Powerlessness" is an excuse to refuse taking responsibility and allow future drinking.

The alkie or addicted druggie refuses to take charge of his thinking and allows his personal decline BACK into alcohol/drug abuse. The steps do not help that condition at all but instead can aggravate it.

Conversely we can note that people who DO work the steps seem to often (not always) have a reduced urge to drink. While this is a positive thing consider the COST of doing these steps:

You fear your fourth step so much you quit the program and go out and get drunk. Why? Because your A/A sponsor told you to "Work the steps or DIE sucker" Depending upon your phyiscal/psychological condition another binge drinking episode just might really kill you.

So it seems much more wise to focus on a new pattern that RECOGNIZES the precursing thoughts just prior to a return to drinking.

Watch out for thoughts like these:

"Work was so hard today i think I'll go home and have just one drink to take the edge off"

"Wow work went great today. i'm gonna get a raise and promotion. A drink or two would really help celebrate".

Another one: "At least when i was drinking I had SOME fun. this sobriety is such a pain all the time".

There are more but that oughta hold ya for now.

If you really want to quit drinking analyze these thoughts. Whenever you hear your mind condoning drinking in any form past present, or future then you should aknowledge it and focus on changing THAT thought pattern

This really works folks.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	great advice. good to have you posting in these forums.
	Good analysis and helpful insights.

[paulywould]

GOD; If you don't believe in GOD, G, O, D can stand for Good Orderly Direction and help you stay clean. Or it can stand or Get On Drugs. Either way the FACT is people do stay clean with the help of a 12 step program. Other people go to meetings to fulfill their court ordered sentence, or their wife ordered sentence, or to meet chicks. Either way, each person has to make the decision to stay clean for themselves. If you want to get and stay clean the 12 steps can help you, as it has millions of people. If you want to be clean and you do wat is "suggested" you can stay clean, and the 12 steps offer a good guideline to follow to stay clean.
If you want to get high, no matter how hard you work the steps, how many meetings you go to, etc., you will get high. I know people who came into their 1rst NA or AA meeting and never used again. I also know peple who go to meetings f'd up. They just don't want to get clean. Even in jail you can get high (or clean).
The 12 steps work, but you have to work them in order to stay clean. If you REALLY want it you can get it. That applies to wanting to get high or wnating to get clean. To stay clean the only step you have to do 100%m perfect everyday is Step 1. The rest are a work in progress. Good Luck!
P-Would

[wildbeast]

Originally Posted by paulywould

GOD; If you don't believe in GOD, G, O, D can stand for Good Orderly Direction and help you stay clean. Or it can stand or Get On Drugs. Either way the FACT is people do stay clean with the help of a 12 step program. Other people go to meetings to fulfill their court ordered sentence, or their wife ordered sentence, or to meet chicks. Either way, each person has to make the decision to stay clean for themselves. If you want to get and stay clean the 12 steps can help you, as it has millions of people. If you want to be clean and you do wat is "suggested" you can stay clean, and the 12 steps offer a good guideline to follow to stay clean.
If you want to get high, no matter how hard you work the steps, how many meetings you go to, etc., you will get high. I know people who came into their 1rst NA or AA meeting and never used again. I also know peple who go to meetings f'd up. They just don't want to get clean. Even in jail you can get high (or clean).
The 12 steps work, but you have to work them in order to stay clean. If you REALLY want it you can get it. That applies to wanting to get high or wnating to get clean. To stay clean the only step you have to do 100%m perfect everyday is Step 1. The rest are a work in progress. Good Luck!
P-Would

12 Steps = TMW or "Too Much Work"...

If one can't moderate or abstain on their own? Well yes they can abstain by simply stubbornly refusing to pick up a drink and drink it.

The whole concept of "Powerlessness" is a cave in to allow future unrestrictive drinking.

The A/A "program" is really a mixed bag. OK if you are newly sober and want to stay away from your associates in the bars. Research has shown that many people do feel less of an urge to drink after they start going to meetings. And often this is true of people working the steps with a sponsor.

However there are stats that also prove many many A/A'ers went on suicidal drinking binges or shot themselves while writing their "Fourth Step"...

It's a whole frigin bunch of hypocrisy:

"Easy Does It" vs. "Work The Steps Or Die".

"Happy Joyous and Free" vs. Endless meetings, constant prayer, meditation, confession and atonement for "harm done others".

Bullshit dude. In the long run you'll make probably better friends playing Volleyball at the YMCA.

Of course there are a few sane nice people in A/A. not the ones waiting like Dracula for the new blood of the newcomer. Those types are so weak and close to drinking themselves they feel they must "Sell their program" to the poor, innocent, frightened newly sober misfit who walks in the door.

No the nice people in A/A are usually those folks on the FRINGE. The ones who go there for the sociableness but do not take the program seriously. Most of these kind souls will find sobriety on their own later on. While they are in A/A they will remain largely outcasts because of their disinclination to follow a sponsor like a Lemming.

When the truth is told A/A will go down in history as a much more abusive cult than Heaven's Gate or Jonestown.

[Riconoen {UGC}]

swim knows someone who was completely brainwashed by this bullshit, now she thinks anyone who drinks is automatically an alcoholic. the us seriously needs a better addiction recovery program than the 12 legged dinosuar.

[Forthesevenlakes]

wildbeast, you have just described part of cognitive behavioral therapy (known as rational emotive therapy in some parts of the world). This part of the therapy seeks to detect self-defeating thoughts (AKA "cognitions") that lead people to relapse on a drug or alcohol even if they feel that they want to quit. These thoughts are usually seen as erroneous logic, which seem to make sense, but upon further inspection are shown to be based up on false premises. After identifying these cognitions, the person must replace them with logical, positive cognitions that will help them stay clean. For example, "At least when i was drinking I had SOME fun. this sobriety is such a pain all the time" could be replaced by something like "If I'm not having fun sober, it's because I am choosing not to. I should look for activities I enjoy and people I like being around, since I have the ability within myself to be happy without alcohol. I don't need it to have fun." This aspect and other techniques aimed at changing behavior effectively allows the brain to unlearn addictive patterns, and then set down new neural pathways for behaviors that will steer one away from drugs. The behavioral component often deals with more automatic processes, such as creating a negative emotional or physical reaction upon exposure to alcohol instead of a positive craving. Unlearning a craving for alcohol with dinner, and replacing it with an urge to take a walk around the neighborhood is one such example.

These techniques can be attempted on one's own, and there are many books on the topic (usually they deal with smoking, at least the ones SWIM has seen, but the premise is similar for other drugs). It may be easier to enlist the help of a therapist, however, especially if the addiction is severe and the withdrawals could endanger or even kill SWIY.

But wildbeast, your advice is truthful and excellent. Seeing one's rationalizations for addiction as what they are is the first step towards being rid of them, and ultimately, the addiction itself.

[wildbeast]

Sevenlakes,

Yeah i should have put a reference to RET in there. Am not an intentional plagarist...

Over the years have always wondered WHY I struggled so hard to quit drinking long ago. The years my drinking got REALLY severe were 1982 through May of 83 when i quit. Same response:

"Oh shit am i sick again. Gotta completely stop. Like totally"...

And I'd go a day or two maybe more and then WHAM: Pick up a drink and toasted again.

But after making a serious effort to STAY STOPPED i put in a fairly easy nine years of total abstinence.

These days? Am a one beer a nite (if that) pansy. So my recent astonishment is how a person (like little old me) defeated the curse of "Once and alcoholic always an alcoholic"...

What i figure is that between 1983 and 1992 or so i had based my whole adult history on abstinence from booze. That being so every new situation like childbirth, marriage, creation of small business etc was done while sober.

Prior to 1983 i had no adult experience of solving any serious problem without having a sixpack of beer and usually much more.

The kind of drinking i do now would not have appealed to me back in 1982. My "goal" then (prior to quitting) was to control my drinking by "only having 3 to 4 beers per night".

However it still sometimes boggles my mind how things reversed. You wouldn't believe the looks I get these days from family members while sporting a glass of booze. Those who know of my former wicked drinking ways that is.

Even my own daughter, who wasn't even born until after i quit still freaks out when she sees me accept a small glass of wine from her aunt.

However Jack Trimpey's "test" still is applicable despite my experience. Sorry i don't have the link.

Passing the test isn't a "Proof" of non alcoholic tendencies. The results of the test are more conclusive on the FAILURE end: If you fail the test you are almost certainly a problem drinker.

Anyone who wonders if he/she is a problem drinker could take this test. The test is however potentially dangerous and as such isn't recommened. It is only advised if the individual has already chosen to start drinking again against all advice but wants to to just feel things out.

Here is the test: For thirty days drink exactly one beer a day. No more, but most importantly No Less...

Now be forewarned that during this time you could easily lose your job, relapse totally, go into DT's, beat up your wife & kids, smash your car, or get arrested and not even remember it etc.

So the mere fact that you are even considering taking the test is a strong indication that drinking is something you oughta avoid.

But with all that said: Yes, i can pass the test. This doesn't mean I'm not necessarily a potential problem drinker just as i was in the early 1980's.

It just means i can pass the test. In 1982 I couldn't possibly have passed it.

Over the years have learned to always double doubt my thoughts concerning drinking and drugs. Have revised my thinking in this area many many times over. And will likely continue to do so.

[Wflash]

Open mindedness is a very rare, enviable and respectable thing. So I salute you for that.

It's possibly unhelpful to some to bring up, but I can't help but also but think that many people who manage to stop their substance of addicition end up returning to it because they believe (often well-meaningly encouraged by those trying to help them to quit and stay off) that life will be great when they have freed themselves from the shackles of addiciton.

And then they find that life is what it is.

There are many horrific things that can drive folks towards destructive and self-damaging drink or drug addiction, and these can be addressed and often removed, to give addicts a new chance. But for some, there was no one or one set of problems that drove them to addiction - just an inability to accept life in the society they live in, and the best it has to offer, as enough - and a consequent drive to seek escapism that led to addicition.

So they fall into addiction, get to a stage where they want out of it and get better, and then maybe eventually conquer it. And then there they are - back in the life and society that couldn't give them happiness in the first place.

This might all sound a bit negative, but I do reckon that people beating addiction need to be aware that they won't suddenly find themselves in a blissful garden of roses. They'll be living in a fucked-up world and in a society they weren't originally comfortable with in the first place. And they need to very seriously decide that that is preferable to their addicted life for them to have any chance of long-term success at being clean.

For those making that journey with their eyes open, you have my respect and my sincere wishes that you succeed.

[Nagognog2]

Here in the Untied Snakes of Amerigo we are on the cusp of a national holiday: Thanksgiving. Or as my folk are fond of saying: Thankstaking.

In the year of their Lord 1620, a little wooden sailing ship called the Mayflower came to shore in what became Plymouth, Massachusetts (Plimouth, they spelled it then - why you may be able to see in a moment!). Lots of impressive tales of their stepping ashore on an infamous rock, with the date chiseled into it no less*, have been fabricated and spread like smallpox on blankets. They had sailed to escape religious tyranny from the Crown of England (they set sail from Holland)! They came to civilize the Indians (who live in India mostly, not Massachusetts)! They came to found a New Nation unto God (burp)! Do any of you Americans know why they actually landed where they did? Ready?

They ran out of beer. Yes - beer. They were sailing for present-day Virginia - but they ran out of brew. Maybe the Massasoit Liquor Store could give them some on credit? Not likely. So on came the smelly, dirty, Holier-Then-Thou savages with a Bible in one hand, and a beer stein in the other - looking to quencheth thy thirsts. Then all Hell broke loose - as most of you already know.

Up well into the 19th century, drinking water was not potable in the USoA. So, rather than risk disease or death, the normal beverage consumed was beer. Or ale. And consume it they did! And the quaffers of this hops-ridden concoction did such things as draft the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Kicked the British out. And began the marvels of manifest destiny - so we could import beers from California in Massachusetts, and visa~versa. Here in this nation founded by a bunch of drunken nuts who thought they had God on their side, not a whole hootin', hollern', hell-of-a-lot has changed.

Bottom Line: The USA was founded as a direct result of people running out of beer!

"When the pilgrams landed on Plimouth Rock.....we wish it had landed on them!"


* several years ago, the Native folk gathered, as usual, in Plymouth to mark an anniversary. They brought a sand-truck and everyone brought a bucket. A bucket-brigade was formed, and the rock was summarily buried in sand. The police rioted and started beating up and arresting the Native people. Cases are still pending and being appealed. That date was Thanksgiving.

[wildbeast]

There is a town just south of Plymouth called Manomet. I know because this is the town where I started my career not only as a professional musician but also as a lush. The year was 1975.

Summer stock theatre, heavy drinking prior to the show. Was the first trumpet player in the pit orchestra for the stage production. A nervous kid of only 20 y/o a few extra brews actually helped my performance. Hardly ever missed a note that summer so long as i was plastered. Not justr my imagination: They taped the performances. the kid played consistently better while under the influence.

trumpet is an instrument best played with confidence and ego. Michelob beer provided all free of charge.

So many a day was spent riding bicycle into Plymouth where the rock is located. the rock itself is surrounded by a lot of pillars and iron fence. Done to prevent scavengers from picking away at the rock. Had there been no fence the rock would not exist.

However it is hard for me to believe that beer would be helpful at quenching thirst: Seems to flow right through in a half hour.

[Wflash]

For an interesting take on the 12 step programme I'd recommend the track The Twelve Steps by the band Spiritualized.

It's more a wry look at rock-star level rehabbers than your average junkie NA goers, but lyrics that have made me smile include:

"If you've got the money for rehab girl,
You ain't got a problem you can't afford."

and -

"Do some knitting, get some rest,
Group therapy makes me depressed."

[biggpri]

nagognog 2 is correct when he says that AA or NA is just another type of addiction. i spent 12 months in an in-patient rehab-style reform school in high school, so i know a little something about this program. it truley amazed me to see how, in many people, their addictions not only switched, but also intensified, from drugs/alcohol to this 12 steps doctrine. it is a religion. no, to be more accurate, it is like a cult. instead of shooting up when boredom strikes or love fails, they just fall back on the 12 steps. the rhetoric of addiction and that of the 12 steps are very similar in terms of how they are thought out - rehearsed answeres and excuses. i'm not saying that AA has never helped anyone, or that you shouldn't ever try it. i just want people to see it for what it is and understand that the willpower to stop using drugs lies inside of you, not some abstract "higher power."

[jayjohnson81]

I haven't read through much of the previous posts, I will just say this though - you don't have to use the 12 steps, but you can still use the group support of people who know EXACTLY what you've been through. No matter how much family/friends/co-workers express their concern and desire to `help` with your addictions, they can't help anywhere near what a room of recovering addicts can help you with. Sometimes it just feels good to know that the people in the room have gone through what you have, and want to help.

And as far as AA/NA groups - there are really shitty groups, and there are great groups of people.

I like Nanannanogs part about the guy swaping addictions to religion, and then `detoxing` from AA.

[jayjohnson81]

Oh yeah - trading up addictions to religion won't kill you like alcohol or benzos - it'll just make other people want to kill you.

[pissdrunkparker]

I have read through various posts on this thread, not all, but what I have to say might be considered by others. NA/AA doesn't always do the trick and is not for everyone, but for someone who finds themselves in a situation where they have to or want to quit I think it can be of some use. If you have a problem with GOD that's your problem. As stated previously by others I see it as more of a spititual program. Even more I see it as a place where one can go and socialize when they decide not to hang with old AQUIANTANCES. Granted there will be some true friends that stick by you, but there is a difference between friends and aquiantances. I think this applies no matter where you go in life though. An old man once told me "you are a lucky man if at the end of your life you have one friend that stuck by you your whole life" I think there is some validity to this. Everyone knows when they are young that there is a good chance they will not continue as friends with those they meet in high school after the fact. And most people know that if and when they leave off to college that those they continued to be friend with after high school may disappear. Same goes for after college. Those met in school will most likely disappear. Most if not all people I know, there current social groups consist of those who they work with and those that they are involved with through groups, organizations, church etc.. Fact is people grow apart and take different paths. This is normal. Change is constant, but what doesn't change is a human's want or need for companionship or to belong to some cause or organization. It adds meaning to life. If your life has no meaning to it other than selfishness, you are one sad individual (opinion).

So for those who decide to quit using NA/AA may be a place to socialize. Especially when they are new to sobriety. Chances are they don't know many sober people and choose not to go around their old crowd because it poses a threat to their sobriety, or they no longer wish to surround themselves with the enviroment. They chose another group that they find more fulfilling. I don't think a person in this position is judging those who still choose to party\use. They understand it because they have been there. Most people in this position have just made a chioce to take a different path, and should be respected for it. Just as they should respect another's choice to get high or whatever.

For those that seem to be PREJUDICE torwards the 12 steps and the idea of GOD. They are exactly that - PREJUDICE! I think by and large is society people are beging to understand that prejudice is ignorant. Most people won't tolerate it and shouldn't! (opinion). I'm positive that any other form of prejudice wouldn't be tolerated, especially racial. Simply put we should all respect the choices that others make! The idea behind the choice made may not make much sense to one idividual, but it did to the one that made it. This forum is full of people talking about one prevalent idea - FREEDOM OF CHOICE! Respect that and drop the PREJUDICE!

[Pino]

The program itself make some assumptions about what spirituality is. It even says there is something, which is called spirituality. So the program is in itself prejudicial. If swim would go to the program for an alcohol problem and he would say he believes in many gods (or maybe worse, referring to God as Her ), swim hasn't any problems with the concept of God. Swim wouldn't be surprised, that the program has some problems with his concept of god and would state he has to adopt their vision.

Of course, if it works it is fine. Many people probably share their vision, so it isn't a bad thing. But as an agnostic person, the 12 step program wouldn't be his first choice. It is more suited for people, who already have some believe in spirituality or God. Not everyone is capable of believing. Many agnostics are precisely that, not capable of believing, so they try to make no assumption at all and do not wish clarity in the matter either.

[pissdrunkparker]

I disagree the program would have problems accepting ones view of GOD as being many gods or even a female. The NA/AA material clearly states " GOD as you understand him." While this does leave out the idea of GOD being a she I am not sure it excludes it or the idea of many gods. Further it also talks of a "power greater than ourselves" I think that this statement would include these ideas. I personally know someone in NA who views their GOD as a GODESS, and when reciting the serenity prayer says so. Not a single person that I know has a problem with this, in fact I tend to belive they respect it. I think people in NA/AA programs tend to value their freedom more so than most. Reason being some if not most have spent plenty of time in jails and institutions where freedom is taken away. I'm sure that most tend to feel that their addictions have have been a prison in themselves and see sobriety as a new found freedom. One cannot put a price on freedom and those that have lost it know this.

Furthermore I disagree with your opinion that NA/AA is prejudice due to their belief in spirituality. The reading material from NA/AA states that they are a non-religious spiritual program. Spirituality being: open and honest with others, treating others how we would like to be treated, respecting others choices, making amends for our wrongs, considering others, humility, helping others etc.. If all people would follow these principles then I believe the world would be a better place. In fact I know it would!

Reputation Comments on this post:

way to go , step on up to a lil higher rep.

[pissdrunkparker]

Another prevalent idea when it comes to "a power greater than ourselves" is using the group as this power. The idea that a group of people with a common goal is more powerful than one is an obvious truth.

[pissdrunkparker]

Originally Posted by Pino

The program itself make some assumptions about what spirituality is. It even says there is something, which is called spirituality.

Furthermore anyone could possibly coclude from a statement such as this that you are saying that there is no such thing as spirituality. I'm sure that there are at least anywhere from 3-5 billion other people that would disagree with you. Someone could also go so far as to say that world history and archeological evidence would disagree with that statement. The idea of spirituality has been around for thousands of years and I don't think that would be so if there was nothing to it.

[Pino]

Originally Posted by pissdrunkparker

Furthermore anyone could possibly coclude from a statement such as this that you are saying that there is no such thing as spirituality. I'm sure that there are at least anywhere from 3-5 billion other people that would disagree with you. Someone could also go so far as to say that world history and archeological evidence would disagree with that statement. The idea of spirituality has been around for thousands of years and I don't think that would be so if there was nothing to it.

For me there is no spirituality. Everyone can have his own vision on this That 3-5 billion people disagree with me, is fine. I have no hard feelings towards them. That what you described as spirituality is for me just being nice to someone. I am fine with that. But most of the times spirituality is presented as some sort of connection with a higher power, a concept with which I do not agree. I am not entirely sure what it is. Probably more a feeling than a rational concept.

GOD as you understand him.

Ah ok, I withdraw the first part of what I was saying Didn't know that.

I am also not opposed to the program. It is not a load of shit in my eyes. For many people it works. I would just like to say. If I had hypothetically some problems, I wouldn't chose something which work on a thing I don't know or understand. I more of the science type of guy and would something, which is more compatible to me. If they say, I have to give myself to a higher power, it won't do anything to me. So the program is not meant for everybody.

[pissdrunkparker]

Originally Posted by Pino

Not everyone is capable of believing.

I also disagree with this idea. Belief is i in my honest opinion is a matter of choice. Anyone that is presented enough factual evidence on any subject, if they are in their right mind, will draw a fact based conclusion on the matter. The fact that you have an opinion shows that you have some sort of a belief system. What you believe is your perception which is based on thoughts which are based on past experiences and your perception of those past experiences. Furthermore if you tend to think a certain way, you chose to think that way. You can chose how you think about anything and everything. Your viewpoint on something now may not have been the same 1 year ago. If this is so you have chosen to think about it differently. This changes your perception of whatever it is and how you experienced it. And whether or not it was a good or bad experience. What seemed like a bad experience at the time may now have been an experience that taught you something and thus it could be percieved as a positive one. When inventors invent things and they fail they don't quit. They try it another way. They most likely will not see it as a failure, but they see it as a way that whatever it is will not work. Thus they have made progress.