The "12 steps" are a load of shit

[y0ssarianlives]

This is long, but worth a read if you are considering getting treatment.

Alright a few months ago I went to one of the supposedly "top of the line" rehab centers in the US. They charged like... $35,000, which my insurance covered. I think my insurance company got ripped off.

I'm an agnostic, and realized the second day I was there that the whole program was based around indocrinating the ideas that an individual can do NOTHING to stop their use, and the only thing that will do this is a sudden spiritual awakening leading to a belief in a higher power. While working with the steps was the only time they used the phrase "higher power", during all the prayers they made us do, and all the readings they had us read, there was no qualms about using the term "God".

Here's my problems with this "program". To assume that the human idea of a "higher power" actually applies to reality outside the confines of our minds, is a rash display of egotism. The universe/existance doesn't give a fuck about how badly we want our heirarchical patterns of thought to have any significance outside the context of humanity, and it was this idea which lead me to being an agnostic in the first place. So, they were asking me to through 19 years of careful thought out the window, and leap on the higher power bandwagon.

Next is the false assumption that people are not responsible for their actions, and as such, cannot control their actions. This is a clear case of most rehab centers being too cheap to do actual research into more modern and effective methods of treatment. There is a new school of thought as far as drug treatment goes, called "Cognative Therapy". It analyzes the thought process which leads up to the decision to use, and teaches you how to modify this into healthy decision making. Statistically, this form of treatment has a much higher success rate. And it places the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the user, it doesn't let them cop out to a higher power.

So, we have cognative therapy, which empowers the user, doesn't label them an addict for life (which the 12 step program DOES do), and gives them the sense of satisfaction that THEy are actively changing their life for the better. Or we have 12 step therapy, which doesn't use science or research in the treatment proccess, doesn't allow for differing faiths, brands the person as an addict for life, and takes away the satisfaction of knowing that THEY have control over whether they use or not. And is based on a 80 year old program created by a man who believed god was the only solution to, well, just about any dilemma someone faced.

In conclusion, unless you are a person of faith, don't go to a 12 step based program. I still cannot believe they charged that much for pretty much telling me to find a higher power, and have faith that the higher power would keep me from using. Lame as all fuck.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Exccellent post, I agreee totally. Amen :-)

[Voices]

First off, I know you aren't stupid, the grammer in your post was very accurate; so, you won't be surprised to learn that there is big money in rehab.

The rehab I spent 18 months in cost $1400 for the whole stay. Wealso ate government cheese and smoked generic cigs.

I have seen the 12 step program literally save people's lives (a "program" [yes it's a program] which you have saddly underestimated).

I also think you may be bright enough to create your own treatment program; the shitty thing is, it still require that you stop doing drugs.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	very well stated.
	thank u bro

[y0ssarianlives]

You're right, SWIM did give a very biased and narrow view of the 12 step program. SWIM went to NA meetings for a month or so after SWIM got out, and although SWIM is sure not all of them were actively investing time into working the steps, it still was a room full of people who were staying sober through the philosophy of the program. SWIM supposes it can be an effective treatment method, provided you aren't as cynical about traditional views of spirituality as SWIM. SWIM guesses that instead of attacking the program, SWIM should have written why it didn't work for SWIM. Still, let this be a warning to research your options for treatment centers, and if you think you may have a conflict with one method, find a different one.

In all fairness, going to this center did rid SWIM of SWIM's cocaine habit. Mainly because they had SWIM analyze how drug use negatively impacted SWIMS life, andSWIMS realization of how shitty/expensive a drug cocaine is. So it did do SWIM some good....

[Sklander]

Look. When you got to an AA meeting like I am mandated to 4 times a week, you just have to play into thier ploy.

Sure, I understand that I have complete control over what I ingest (no offense to those who think they can't) and I had a very hard time admitting that I "am powerless over alcohol and drugs." This is a load of shit. If drugs are creating a problem in your life STOP USING THEM AND GET SHIT STRAIGHTENED OUT. However, I am not an addict, so I do not know what it is like to be fiending for H or willing to suck a dick for a hit of crack. So, my view is skewed, and in a way not valid to that of a true addicts.

You are probably like me, a "normie" as Anthony Keidis calls us from his book "Scar Tissue". I don't understand drug addiction. Just stop using the drugs is how I have always viewed it.

If you're mandated to go, see how well you can review your life and you will be thankful for it. I have never talked in a meeting because I don't have the stories of these old timers doing insane things.

Good luck man. PM me if you have any questions about AA.

I will say this. Addict or no addict, the twelve steps will make you a better person. If it doesn't stop you from using it will make you step back from situation you wouldn't have previously and review your actions. I know that the twelve steps has helped me tremendously. Remember, when you got to an AA meeting you are hearing the WORST OF THE WORST. People loosing their jobs, spouses, children, houses, etc. Because they can't just stop using fucking drugs. Something me and you will never understand.

The 12 steps are NOT a load of shit. They work for these people who think they have a problem and that the steps are their only way to staying sober. For that, grant them all the praise in the world. At leas they aren't out driving around fucked up and slamming into your chiild's car killing them. Think about it like that.

AA is a substitute drug for alcohol. Get involved with the program and you don't have time to drink or drug. It is an effective program for those who believe in it.

[CrookedEye]

It works if ya work it!!! LOL, it honestly does, but the people it seems to work for, are not everyone.. Swim could give an honest opinion about the twelve steps, but it would possibly offend some who HAVE benefited from it, so he'll refrain... He will only say, once one decides something, then works towards that goal, anything is possible...

Reputation Comments on this post:

yep

[Nagognog2]

I saw AA turn a tough, Vietnam-Veteran army ranger/sniper into a Bible-burping 12-stepper with drool on his cardigan sweater.

He's doing much better now, once he was detoxed from the effects of AA. He realized he had swapped addictions from alcohol to religion. So he just stood back from himself and rejected both.

[Forthesevenlakes]

The 12 step program has always posed a similar problem to SWIM in that it seems to replace one addiction with another. However, since it does seem to help alot of people, SWIM does not entirely condemn it, although he does see some validity to the points presented here.

There is a debate going on in the psychiatry and addiction fields right now as to if cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) or twelve step programs are more efficacious. Advantages of CBT include fewer meetings, the prospect of not having meetings continue for a lifetime, the concept of empowerment vs. believing one has no control over use, and the fact that one doesn't need to buy into religion to use CBT (which may or may not be an advantage depending on SWIY's beliefs).

Where the research on comparing these programs stands is currently this:

- With CBT, reduction in drug use is more gradual than with twelve step programs, but the reductions stabilize after treatment and remain. Reductions in use seen with twelve step programs do not always remain if the person ceases going to the meetings.

- Twelve step programs show a faster reduction in drug use than with CBT, but relapse tends to be rapid after 12 months of the treatment. Relapse is less common with CBT, although it still happens.

- CBT may be less effective for those with neuropsychiatric deficits. Since CBT requires largely a degree of rational thought and logic to help change thought patterns and faulty ideas that lead to addiction, it is more useful for people with the ability to use logic to change their thoughts, and thus their behaviors. It does not work on the same "gut level" that twelve step programs do. For this reason, twelve step programs may work better for some people since it is more of an emotional appeal utilizing peer pressure (to a degree), the idea of a higher power, etc. So the future of addiction treatment may involve different programs geared towards what could be most effective to the individual, whether this is by logical or emotional means.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Nice post! Great info, thanks!

[Sklander]

Just to clarify, AA is not in any way affiliated with religion. Its a "God" as you may understand "him".

Some may call it a cult, but it is definitely not religious. Its more spiritual.

[INodHardOhYeah]

Sklander is correct AA has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with spirituality. The working definition of spirituality in AA is "The relationship between you and the rest of the world." Alcoholism/addiction is reffered to as a "spiritual disease" in the program, this stemming from the fact that active addiction is a completely self-centered and selfish way of life. You have lost your relationship with the rest of the world, with your life being centered completely around your own need to use/drink.

The spiritual experience/spiritual awakening (I won't go into differentiating between the two here) is a complete personal change in which you regain your relationship with the rest of the world. It doesn't have to have anything to do with God.

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by INodHardOhYeah

The spiritual experience/spiritual awakening (I won't go into differentiating between the two here) is a complete personal change in which you regain your relationship with the rest of the world. It doesn't have to have anything to do with God.

Yeah, right. Just open the AA "big book" and count the number of times the word "God" is used, maybe that will convince you. Not saying there isn't a spiritual component to the program, just that there's a fairly major religious one as well.

IMO NA is actually somewhat better... even though they use the same 12 steps, their literature, slogans, general attitude in the groups, etc. are substantially less "God" oriented.

[INodHardOhYeah]

Originally Posted by Nicaine

Yeah, right. Just open the AA "big book" and count the number of times the word "God" is used, maybe that will convince you. Not saying there isn't a spiritual component to the program, just that there's a fairly major religious one as well.

I didn't say that people don't make it about God, I'm saying you don't have to make it about God. Having to read the word "God" shouldn't bother you, just imagine it as an acronym for "good orderly direction."

The fact that other people feel a religious component is necessary shouldn't effect you. You need to work the program for yourself, no one else can or should be doing it for you. It can help to find a sponsor who has the same views on the program as you.

Many people interpret the bible literally (in my opinion, these people are completely ignorant), other people use historical and redaction criticism to determine the meaning and message behind the various letters, parables, etc. This is what should be done with any spiritual or philisophical text, as should be the case with literature from AA.

[rodent]

Forthesevenlakes- I wasn't aware of CBT but that makes the most sense to me.

I've been to several meetings myself and the real issue I have with AA is their belief that one has no control over their use or themselves and that this remains the case for life. I mean, many would agree that emotions are mostly (if not entirely) just electro-chemical reactions in the brain. You wouldn't tell your best friend that when their significant other left them the loss they feel is permanent and they are powerless to get over it. "Go to a meeting and talk about how you got dumped for the rest of your life". That's what makes no sense to me.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Excellent point and and comparison.

[Sklander]

rodent - That is the same thing that I have trouble grasping. I got caught doing some shit that I shouldn't have, but that doesn't mean that a substance has control over what I do. I will never understand that...

Nicaine - Read a little further. "God, AS YOU MAY UNDERSTAND HIM OR HER OR IT". When they say "God" they mean anything greater than yourself that you believe has a good plan for you if you follow a program of selflessness and honesty. AA really has nothing to do with religion. Its all about spirituality. In fact, most people coming into AA are agnostic or atheist. If they begin to work a good program they believe in a God, as that person may begin to understand their "God".

Shit, your God could be science if it answers your questions and keeps you sober.

Each person's God in AA is different. I know lots of people in AA who say that their God (God is hardly ever used in a meeting, you usually hear "Higher Power") is the AA program and coming to meetings. Hey, whatever works. These people are hopeless and AA gives them a meaningful productive life. More power to them... Do what you do...

[Creeping Death]

I saw that show Bullshit about 12 steps. If its so good that everyone is sent to it, then why are there no statistics of how many they "cure"?

They have only revealed it once, in the seventies. And this said that 5% of their patients were cured. 5% is the same number of people that recover from alcoholism without any help.

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by Sklander

Nicaine - Read a little further. "God, AS YOU MAY UNDERSTAND HIM OR HER OR IT". When they say "God" they mean anything greater than yourself that you believe has a good plan for you if you follow a program of selflessness and honesty. AA really has nothing to do with religion. Its all about spirituality.

IMO those who say this are more reciting slogans than going by an in-depth analysis of the program (see chapter: "We Agnostics"), but whatever.

http://www.recovery.org/aa/bigbook/ww/chapter_4.html

When we saw others solve their problems by a simple reliance upon the Spirit of the Universe, we had to stop doubting the power of God. Our ideas did not work. But the God idea did.

...

But later, alone in his room, he asked himself this question: "Is it possible that all the religious people I have known are wrong?" While pondering the answer he felt as though he lived in hell. Then, like a thunderbolt, a great thought came. It crowded out all else:

"Who are you to say there is no God?"

This man recounts that he tumbled out of bed to his knees. In a few seconds he was overwhelmed by a conviction of the Presence of God. It poured over and through him with the certainty and majesty of a great tide at flood.

Oh yeah, it's all "just a suggestion," I forgot. LOL.

[Nagognog2]

I love how drunk-drivers always slather their vehicles with AA Bumper-Stickers: "Easy Does It!" "One Day At A Time!"......Vrrrrooooooooooooooom!!! sMaSh!!

But I prefer this sticker better: "Driving Drunk? Take Off Your Seatbelt."

[omen8productions]

SWIM isnt sure what to say, so he'll say a lot. he has been in and out of detox and rehab for three years. only within the last seven months has he found his answer. which is sort of what it has come down too. a personal very personal choice.

AA (& NA, etc...), does employ the use of god as it's founding principle, but that comes down to a common denominator. the stress is on a higher power before any specific rendition of it. a drunk is one of the weakest forms of human. there is nothing he can do for himself. that is why the second step, after admitting you are powerless, is to accept the fact that you are not in control, that you are not god. it seems like most addicts are obsessed with control, and coping with the fact that they are powerless, in the long run.

it goes on from there to accepting the fact that this higher power can save you, and then literally turning your entire life over to it. that is where SWIM gets hung up. turning his life over to a higher power he has only seen hints of behind the curtain seems like a poor idea to jump into, especially half-heartedly.

being a total drunk is only a hair above suicide.

[rodent]

a drunk is one of the weakest forms of human

I will have to disagree with that. One of my best friends was for most of his life a total alcoholic, although a quite functional one. He never got married nor had many serious relationships with a significant other for the 10 years I knew him but he worked very hard, paid his own bills and had a very close group of good friends and family. I also know this isn't your typical drunk but I wouldn't have described him weak in any way. He drank so much that his body finally quit at age 43 just a few years ago. We loved him the way he was.

Writing this makes me wonder what AA would have done for him... he might have lived longer but would he have stayed friends with us? Would he have been happy eventually after sobering up?

I just don't buy it that humans are so weak that they can do nothing for themselves. I've seen even the most pathetic of humans do some incredible things for themselves and others without claiming God was behind it all.

[Forthesevenlakes]

Originally Posted by omen8productions

a drunk is one of the weakest forms of human. there is nothing he can do for himself.

Maybe in the most extreme cases if one's talking about people who do little but drink or get money for drinking. But this statement seems myopic to me. What's more likely is that you'd see a distribution of alcoholism, with functional alcoholics comprising the majority of alcoholism cases, and the truly powerless drunks would be a small portion at the end of the distribution. However, since the most extreme drunks are also the most visible and salient in society, that's who people will think of when someone thinks "alcoholic". It's a simple availability heuristic. Most likely you could not tell if someone is an alcoholic just by looking at them, however, since to pay for their habit they'd have to be holding down a job, keep their alcoholism hidden from family and friends, etc. So while SOME drunks may be powerless, it seems unfair to state that ALL of them are. For those who are truly powerless, maybe AA is the best bet for them. But for many, perhaps a different strategy (for example cognitive behavioral therapy) could work as well if not better than AA.

[Riconoen {UGC}]

All AA does is shift the blame from the person to someone else, in this case god. They make it seem like they are powerless to control thier habit which is a load of bullshit, god didndt make them drink a bottle of smirnoff they chose to do that. I hate the 12 steps and it's a damn shame our government forces people to go to that cultist crap when there are much better alternatives out there to help people control thier addictions.

[omen8productions]

i guess i'd like to know if any of these someones are addicts themselves.

[Forthesevenlakes]

Originally Posted by omen8productions

i guess i'd like to know if any of these someones are addicts themselves.

No, but SWIM does work with many people with substance abuse/dependence issues, so he sees a pretty good cross-section of people who meet criteria for alcohol dependence. Many of them are completely functional. So while SWIM is not a foremost authority on the matter (yet), he does speak from theoretical and emperical experience on it.

By the way, if SWIY was attempting to degenerate the thread into an argumentum ad homenim, that's usually not considered a valid debate technique. If SWIY was not, then disregard that last sentence. =]

[Trebor]

My uncle went through it, he was drinking again in 2 days. It doesn't work.

[Sklander]

Originally Posted by Trebor

My uncle went through it, he was drinking again in 2 days. It doesn't work.

That is a pretty weak way of judging whether or not AA works. Come on...

AA and their crazy meetings and gatherings are just a substitue for thier drinking. There are people that "can't" stop drinking or using, even though I think you CAN by just not doing it, but I am not one of those people.

If it works for them that's great. My Uncle is a shining example of what AA can do to a person. He was a raging alcoholic, went to AA, started working the steps and hasn't had a drink since then. It works if you work it, it just may not be for you.

[Subuser]

A higher power is a pretty simple concept.
Something greater than yourself.
If you have all the answers you wouldn't be an addict.

Reputation Comments on this post:

well put