The "12 steps" are a load of shit

[y0ssarianlives]

This is long, but worth a read if you are considering getting treatment.

Alright a few months ago I went to one of the supposedly "top of the line" rehab centers in the US. They charged like... $35,000, which my insurance covered. I think my insurance company got ripped off.

I'm an agnostic, and realized the second day I was there that the whole program was based around indocrinating the ideas that an individual can do NOTHING to stop their use, and the only thing that will do this is a sudden spiritual awakening leading to a belief in a higher power. While working with the steps was the only time they used the phrase "higher power", during all the prayers they made us do, and all the readings they had us read, there was no qualms about using the term "God".

Here's my problems with this "program". To assume that the human idea of a "higher power" actually applies to reality outside the confines of our minds, is a rash display of egotism. The universe/existance doesn't give a fuck about how badly we want our heirarchical patterns of thought to have any significance outside the context of humanity, and it was this idea which lead me to being an agnostic in the first place. So, they were asking me to through 19 years of careful thought out the window, and leap on the higher power bandwagon.

Next is the false assumption that people are not responsible for their actions, and as such, cannot control their actions. This is a clear case of most rehab centers being too cheap to do actual research into more modern and effective methods of treatment. There is a new school of thought as far as drug treatment goes, called "Cognative Therapy". It analyzes the thought process which leads up to the decision to use, and teaches you how to modify this into healthy decision making. Statistically, this form of treatment has a much higher success rate. And it places the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the user, it doesn't let them cop out to a higher power.

So, we have cognative therapy, which empowers the user, doesn't label them an addict for life (which the 12 step program DOES do), and gives them the sense of satisfaction that THEy are actively changing their life for the better. Or we have 12 step therapy, which doesn't use science or research in the treatment proccess, doesn't allow for differing faiths, brands the person as an addict for life, and takes away the satisfaction of knowing that THEY have control over whether they use or not. And is based on a 80 year old program created by a man who believed god was the only solution to, well, just about any dilemma someone faced.

In conclusion, unless you are a person of faith, don't go to a 12 step based program. I still cannot believe they charged that much for pretty much telling me to find a higher power, and have faith that the higher power would keep me from using. Lame as all fuck.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Exccellent post, I agreee totally. Amen :-)

[Voices]

First off, I know you aren't stupid, the grammer in your post was very accurate; so, you won't be surprised to learn that there is big money in rehab.

The rehab I spent 18 months in cost $1400 for the whole stay. Wealso ate government cheese and smoked generic cigs.

I have seen the 12 step program literally save people's lives (a "program" [yes it's a program] which you have saddly underestimated).

I also think you may be bright enough to create your own treatment program; the shitty thing is, it still require that you stop doing drugs.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	very well stated.
	thank u bro

[y0ssarianlives]

You're right, SWIM did give a very biased and narrow view of the 12 step program. SWIM went to NA meetings for a month or so after SWIM got out, and although SWIM is sure not all of them were actively investing time into working the steps, it still was a room full of people who were staying sober through the philosophy of the program. SWIM supposes it can be an effective treatment method, provided you aren't as cynical about traditional views of spirituality as SWIM. SWIM guesses that instead of attacking the program, SWIM should have written why it didn't work for SWIM. Still, let this be a warning to research your options for treatment centers, and if you think you may have a conflict with one method, find a different one.

In all fairness, going to this center did rid SWIM of SWIM's cocaine habit. Mainly because they had SWIM analyze how drug use negatively impacted SWIMS life, andSWIMS realization of how shitty/expensive a drug cocaine is. So it did do SWIM some good....

[Sklander]

Look. When you got to an AA meeting like I am mandated to 4 times a week, you just have to play into thier ploy.

Sure, I understand that I have complete control over what I ingest (no offense to those who think they can't) and I had a very hard time admitting that I "am powerless over alcohol and drugs." This is a load of shit. If drugs are creating a problem in your life STOP USING THEM AND GET SHIT STRAIGHTENED OUT. However, I am not an addict, so I do not know what it is like to be fiending for H or willing to suck a dick for a hit of crack. So, my view is skewed, and in a way not valid to that of a true addicts.

You are probably like me, a "normie" as Anthony Keidis calls us from his book "Scar Tissue". I don't understand drug addiction. Just stop using the drugs is how I have always viewed it.

If you're mandated to go, see how well you can review your life and you will be thankful for it. I have never talked in a meeting because I don't have the stories of these old timers doing insane things.

Good luck man. PM me if you have any questions about AA.

I will say this. Addict or no addict, the twelve steps will make you a better person. If it doesn't stop you from using it will make you step back from situation you wouldn't have previously and review your actions. I know that the twelve steps has helped me tremendously. Remember, when you got to an AA meeting you are hearing the WORST OF THE WORST. People loosing their jobs, spouses, children, houses, etc. Because they can't just stop using fucking drugs. Something me and you will never understand.

The 12 steps are NOT a load of shit. They work for these people who think they have a problem and that the steps are their only way to staying sober. For that, grant them all the praise in the world. At leas they aren't out driving around fucked up and slamming into your chiild's car killing them. Think about it like that.

AA is a substitute drug for alcohol. Get involved with the program and you don't have time to drink or drug. It is an effective program for those who believe in it.

[CrookedEye]

It works if ya work it!!! LOL, it honestly does, but the people it seems to work for, are not everyone.. Swim could give an honest opinion about the twelve steps, but it would possibly offend some who HAVE benefited from it, so he'll refrain... He will only say, once one decides something, then works towards that goal, anything is possible...

Reputation Comments on this post:

yep

[Nagognog2]

I saw AA turn a tough, Vietnam-Veteran army ranger/sniper into a Bible-burping 12-stepper with drool on his cardigan sweater.

He's doing much better now, once he was detoxed from the effects of AA. He realized he had swapped addictions from alcohol to religion. So he just stood back from himself and rejected both.

[Forthesevenlakes]

The 12 step program has always posed a similar problem to SWIM in that it seems to replace one addiction with another. However, since it does seem to help alot of people, SWIM does not entirely condemn it, although he does see some validity to the points presented here.

There is a debate going on in the psychiatry and addiction fields right now as to if cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) or twelve step programs are more efficacious. Advantages of CBT include fewer meetings, the prospect of not having meetings continue for a lifetime, the concept of empowerment vs. believing one has no control over use, and the fact that one doesn't need to buy into religion to use CBT (which may or may not be an advantage depending on SWIY's beliefs).

Where the research on comparing these programs stands is currently this:

- With CBT, reduction in drug use is more gradual than with twelve step programs, but the reductions stabilize after treatment and remain. Reductions in use seen with twelve step programs do not always remain if the person ceases going to the meetings.

- Twelve step programs show a faster reduction in drug use than with CBT, but relapse tends to be rapid after 12 months of the treatment. Relapse is less common with CBT, although it still happens.

- CBT may be less effective for those with neuropsychiatric deficits. Since CBT requires largely a degree of rational thought and logic to help change thought patterns and faulty ideas that lead to addiction, it is more useful for people with the ability to use logic to change their thoughts, and thus their behaviors. It does not work on the same "gut level" that twelve step programs do. For this reason, twelve step programs may work better for some people since it is more of an emotional appeal utilizing peer pressure (to a degree), the idea of a higher power, etc. So the future of addiction treatment may involve different programs geared towards what could be most effective to the individual, whether this is by logical or emotional means.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Nice post! Great info, thanks!

[Sklander]

Just to clarify, AA is not in any way affiliated with religion. Its a "God" as you may understand "him".

Some may call it a cult, but it is definitely not religious. Its more spiritual.

[INodHardOhYeah]

Sklander is correct AA has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with spirituality. The working definition of spirituality in AA is "The relationship between you and the rest of the world." Alcoholism/addiction is reffered to as a "spiritual disease" in the program, this stemming from the fact that active addiction is a completely self-centered and selfish way of life. You have lost your relationship with the rest of the world, with your life being centered completely around your own need to use/drink.

The spiritual experience/spiritual awakening (I won't go into differentiating between the two here) is a complete personal change in which you regain your relationship with the rest of the world. It doesn't have to have anything to do with God.

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by INodHardOhYeah

The spiritual experience/spiritual awakening (I won't go into differentiating between the two here) is a complete personal change in which you regain your relationship with the rest of the world. It doesn't have to have anything to do with God.

Yeah, right. Just open the AA "big book" and count the number of times the word "God" is used, maybe that will convince you. Not saying there isn't a spiritual component to the program, just that there's a fairly major religious one as well.

IMO NA is actually somewhat better... even though they use the same 12 steps, their literature, slogans, general attitude in the groups, etc. are substantially less "God" oriented.

[INodHardOhYeah]

Originally Posted by Nicaine

Yeah, right. Just open the AA "big book" and count the number of times the word "God" is used, maybe that will convince you. Not saying there isn't a spiritual component to the program, just that there's a fairly major religious one as well.

I didn't say that people don't make it about God, I'm saying you don't have to make it about God. Having to read the word "God" shouldn't bother you, just imagine it as an acronym for "good orderly direction."

The fact that other people feel a religious component is necessary shouldn't effect you. You need to work the program for yourself, no one else can or should be doing it for you. It can help to find a sponsor who has the same views on the program as you.

Many people interpret the bible literally (in my opinion, these people are completely ignorant), other people use historical and redaction criticism to determine the meaning and message behind the various letters, parables, etc. This is what should be done with any spiritual or philisophical text, as should be the case with literature from AA.

[rodent]

Forthesevenlakes- I wasn't aware of CBT but that makes the most sense to me.

I've been to several meetings myself and the real issue I have with AA is their belief that one has no control over their use or themselves and that this remains the case for life. I mean, many would agree that emotions are mostly (if not entirely) just electro-chemical reactions in the brain. You wouldn't tell your best friend that when their significant other left them the loss they feel is permanent and they are powerless to get over it. "Go to a meeting and talk about how you got dumped for the rest of your life". That's what makes no sense to me.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Excellent point and and comparison.

[Sklander]

rodent - That is the same thing that I have trouble grasping. I got caught doing some shit that I shouldn't have, but that doesn't mean that a substance has control over what I do. I will never understand that...

Nicaine - Read a little further. "God, AS YOU MAY UNDERSTAND HIM OR HER OR IT". When they say "God" they mean anything greater than yourself that you believe has a good plan for you if you follow a program of selflessness and honesty. AA really has nothing to do with religion. Its all about spirituality. In fact, most people coming into AA are agnostic or atheist. If they begin to work a good program they believe in a God, as that person may begin to understand their "God".

Shit, your God could be science if it answers your questions and keeps you sober.

Each person's God in AA is different. I know lots of people in AA who say that their God (God is hardly ever used in a meeting, you usually hear "Higher Power") is the AA program and coming to meetings. Hey, whatever works. These people are hopeless and AA gives them a meaningful productive life. More power to them... Do what you do...

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by Sklander

Nicaine - Read a little further. "God, AS YOU MAY UNDERSTAND HIM OR HER OR IT". When they say "God" they mean anything greater than yourself that you believe has a good plan for you if you follow a program of selflessness and honesty. AA really has nothing to do with religion. Its all about spirituality.

IMO those who say this are more reciting slogans than going by an in-depth analysis of the program (see chapter: "We Agnostics"), but whatever.

http://www.recovery.org/aa/bigbook/ww/chapter_4.html

When we saw others solve their problems by a simple reliance upon the Spirit of the Universe, we had to stop doubting the power of God. Our ideas did not work. But the God idea did.

...

But later, alone in his room, he asked himself this question: "Is it possible that all the religious people I have known are wrong?" While pondering the answer he felt as though he lived in hell. Then, like a thunderbolt, a great thought came. It crowded out all else:

"Who are you to say there is no God?"

This man recounts that he tumbled out of bed to his knees. In a few seconds he was overwhelmed by a conviction of the Presence of God. It poured over and through him with the certainty and majesty of a great tide at flood.

Oh yeah, it's all "just a suggestion," I forgot. LOL.

[Creeping Death]

I saw that show Bullshit about 12 steps. If its so good that everyone is sent to it, then why are there no statistics of how many they "cure"?

They have only revealed it once, in the seventies. And this said that 5% of their patients were cured. 5% is the same number of people that recover from alcoholism without any help.

[Nagognog2]

I love how drunk-drivers always slather their vehicles with AA Bumper-Stickers: "Easy Does It!" "One Day At A Time!"......Vrrrrooooooooooooooom!!! sMaSh!!

But I prefer this sticker better: "Driving Drunk? Take Off Your Seatbelt."

[beentheredonethatagain]

Originally Posted by Nagognog2

I love how drunk-drivers always slather their vehicles with AA Bumper-Stickers: "Easy Does It!" "One Day At A Time!"......Vrrrrooooooooooooooom!!! sMaSh!!

But I prefer this sticker better: "Driving Drunk? Take Off Your Seatbelt."

True True very True , I have seen it on smashed up bumpers

Okay I will break it down to simple terms, keep it simple
I did this so I can speak from expeirence.

I was in bad shape at one time, believe it or not. I tried every thing under the sun to quit or at least controll my using. I finally went voluntarly to meetings. and it was taught to me like this. There has to be a power greater than myself somewhere outside the rooms , right? I couldnt build a computer from scratch or I couldn't give a dog life, or make one cloud rain, there are infinte things that I couldn't have enough power on my own to do.

Just like I couldn't controll my unmanagable life, or I wouldn't be going to meetings , right? Yeah so there has to be a power greater than me, somewhere. That is a higher power, yes I call him God the Father, the Creator, but many others have their own power greater than them and don't call it god. The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous has a chapter entirley on the subject of Agnostics . Its called We Agnostics. The founders of AA , before they wrote their book , they would bring bibles to there meetings.
And the early AA's found they couldnt stay sober on their own, but when they worked with another alcoholic they were astonished to find themselves not drinking. One alcoholic helping another is the foundation of recovery. Here is that chapter out of the Big Book

.

[top]Chapter 4

[top]We Agnostics

In the preceding chapters you have learned something of alcoholism. we hope we have made clear the distinction between the alcoholic and the non-alcoholic. If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic. If that be the case, you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer.

To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face.
But it isn't so difficult. About half our original fellowship were of exactly that type. At first some of us tried to avoid the issue, hoping against hope we were not true alcoholics. But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life or else. Perhaps it is going to be that way with you. But cheer up, something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics. Our experience shows that you need not be disconcerted.

If a mere code of morals or a better philosophy of life were sufficient to overcome alcoholism, many of us would have recovered long ago. But we found that such codes and philosophies did not save us, no matter how much we tried. We could wish to be moral, we could wish to be philosophically comforted, in fact, we could will these things with all our might, but the needed power wasn't there. Our human resources, as marshalled by the will, were not sufficient; they failed utterly.

Lack of power, that was our dilemma. we had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this Power?
Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem. That means we have written a book which we believe to be spiritual as well as moral. And it means, of course, that we are going to talk about God. Here difficulty arises with agnostics. Many times we talk to a new man and watch his hope rise as we discuss his alcoholic problems and explain our fellowship. But his face falls when we speak of spiritual matters, especially when we mention God, for we have re-opened a subject which our man thought he had neatly evaded or entirely ignored.

We know how he feels. We have shared his honest doubt and prejudice. Some of us have been violently anti-religious. To others, the word "God" brought up a particular idea of Him with which someone had tried to impress them during childhood. Perhaps we rejected this particular conception because it seemed inadequate. With that rejection we imagined we had abandoned the God idea entirely. We were bothered with the thought that faith and dependence upon a Power beyond ourselves was somewhat weak, even cowardly. We looked upon this world of warring individuals, warring theological systems, and inexplicable calamity, with deep skepticism. We looked askance at many individuals who claimed to be godly. How could a Supreme Being have anything to do with it all? And who could comprehend a Supreme Being anyhow? Yet, in other moments, we found ourselves thinking, when enchanted by a starlit night, "Who, then, make all this?" There was a feeling of awe and wonder, but it was fleeting and soon lost.

Yes, we of agnostic temperament have had these thoughts and experiences. Let us make haste to reassure you. We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that Power, which is God.
Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another's conception of God. Our own conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to make the approach and to effect a contact with Him. As soon as we admitted the possible existence of a Creative Intelligence, a Spirit of the Universe underlying the totality of things, we began to be possessed of a new sense of power and direction, provided we took other simple steps. We found that God does not make too hard terms with those who seek Him. To us, the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive; never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek. It is open, we believe, to all men.

When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book. Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what they mean to you. At the start, this was all we needed to commence spiritual growth, to effect our first conscious relation with God as we understood Him. Afterward, we found ourselves accepting many things which then seemed entirely out of reach. That was growth, but if we wished to grow we had to begin somewhere. So we used our own conception, however limited it was.
We needed to ask ourselves but one short question. --"Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a Power greater than myself?" As soon as a man can say that he does believe, or is willing to believe, we emphatically assure him that he is on his way. It has been repeatedly proven among us that upon this simple cornerstone a wonderfully effective spiritual structure can be built.*

That was great news to us, for we had assumed we could not make use of spiritual principles unless we accepted many things on faith which seemed difficult to believe. When people presented us with spiritual approaches, how frequently did we all say, "I wish I had what that man has. I'm sure it would work if I could only believe as he believes. But I cannot accept as surely true the many articles of faith which are so plain to him." So it was comforting to learn that we could commence at a simpler level.

Besides a seeming inability to accept much on faith, we often found ourselves handicapped by obstinacy, sensitiveness, and unreasoning prejudice. Many of us have been so touchy that even casual reference to spiritual things make us bristle with antagonism. This sort of thinking had to be abandoned. Though some of us resisted, we found no great difficulty in casting aside such feelings. Faced with alcoholic destruction, we soon became as open minded on spiritual matters as we had tried to be on other questions. In this respect alcohol was a great persuader. It finally beat us into a state of reasonableness. Sometimes this was a tedious process; we hope no one else will prejudiced for as long as some of us were.
The reader may still ask why he should believe in a Power greater than himself. We think there are good reasons. Let us have a look at some of them.

The practical individual of today is a stickler for facts and results. Nevertheless, the twentieth century readily accepts theories of all kinds, provided they are firmly grounded in fact. We have numerous theories, for example, about electricity. Everybody believes them without a murmur of doubt. Why this ready acceptance? Simply because it is impossible to explain what we see, feel, direct, and use, without a reasonable assumption as a starting point.

Everybody nowadays, believes in scores of assumptions for which there is good evidence, but no perfect visual proof. And does not science demonstrate that visual proof is the weakest proof? It is being constantly revealed, as mankind studies the material world, that outward appearances are not inward reality at all. To illustrate:

The prosaic steel girder is a mass of electrons whirling around each other at incredible speed. These tiny bodies are governed by precise laws, and these laws hold true throughout the material world, Science tells us so. We have no reason to doubt it. When, however, the perfectly logical assumption is suggested that underneath the material world and life as we see it, there is an All Powerful, Guiding, Creative Intelligence, right there our perverse streak comes to the surface and we laboriously set out to convince ourselves it isn't so. We read wordy books and indulge in windy arguments, thinking we believe this universe needs no God to explain it. Were our contentions true, it would follow that life originated out of nothing, means nothing, and proceeds nowhere.

Instead of regarding ourselves as intelligent agents, spearheads of God's ever advancing Creation, we agnostics and atheists chose to believe that our human intelligence was the last word, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and end of all. Rather vain of us, wasn't it?

We, who have traveled this dubious path, beg you to lay aside prejudice, even against organized religion. We have learned that whatever the human frailties of various faiths may be, those faiths have given purpose and direction to millions. People of faith have a logical idea of what life is all about. Actually, we used to have no reasonable conception whatever. We used to amuse ourselves by cynically dissecting spiritual beliefs and practices when we might have observed that many spiritually-minded persons of all races, colors, and creeds were demonstrating a degree of stability, happiness and usefulness which we should have sought ourselves. Instead, we looked at the human defects of these people, and sometimes used their shortcomings as a basis of wholesale condemnation. We talked of intolerance, while we were intolerant ourselves. We missed the reality and the beauty of the forest because we were diverted by the ugliness of some its trees. We never gave the spiritual side of life a fair hearing.

In our personal stories you will find a wide variation in the way each teller approaches and conceives of the Power which is greater than himself. Whether we agree with a particular approach or conception seems to make little difference. Experience has taught us that these are matters about which, for our purpose, we need not be worried. They are questions for each individual to settle for himself.

On one proposition, however, these men and women are strikingly agreed. Every one of them has gained access to, and believe in, a Power greater than himself. This Power has in each case accomplished the miraculous, the humanly impossible. As a celebrated American statesman put it, "Let's look at the record."

Here are thousands of men and women, worldly indeed. They flatly declare that since they have come to believe in a Power greater than themselves, to take a certain attitude toward that Power, and to do certain simple things. There has been a revolutionary change in their way of living and thinking. In the face of collapse and despair, in the face of the total failure of their human resources, they found that a new power, peace, happiness, and sense of direction flowed into them. This happened soon after they wholeheartedly met a few simple requirements. Once confused and baffled by the seeming futility of existence, they show the underlying reasons why they were making heavy going of life. Leaving aside the drink question, they tell why living was so unsatisfactory. They show how the change came over them. When many hundreds of people are able to say that the consciousness of the Presence of God is today the most important fact of their lives, they present a powerful reason why one should have faith.

This world of ours has made more material progress in the last century than in all the millenniums which went before. Almost everyone knows the reason. Students of ancient history tell us that the intellect of men in those days was equal to the best of today. Yet in ancient times, material progress was painfully slow. The spirit of modern scientific inquiry, research and invention was almost unknown. In the realm of the material, men's minds were fettered by superstition, tradition, and all sort of fixed ideas. Some of the contemporaries of Columbus thought a round earth preposterous. Others came near putting Galileo to death for his astronomical heresies.

We asked ourselves this: Are not some of us just as biased and unreasonable about the realm of the spirit as were the ancients about the realm of the material? Even in the present century, American newspapers were afraid to print an account of the Wright brothers' first successful flight at Kittyhawk. Had not all efforts at flight failed before? Did not Professor Langley's flying machine go to the bottom of the Potomac River? Was it not true that the best mathematical minds had proved man could never fly? Had not people said God had reserved this privilege to the birds? Only thirty years later the conquest of the air was almost an old story and airplane travel was in full swing.

But in most fields our generation has witnessed complete liberation in thinking. Show any longshoreman a Sunday supplement describing a proposal to explore the moon by means of a rocket and he will say, "I bet they do it maybe not so long either." Is not our age characterized by the ease with which we discard old ideas for new, by the complete readiness with which we throw away the theory or gadget which does not work for something new which does?

We had to ask ourselves why we shouldn't apply to our human problems this same readiness to change our point of view. We were having trouble with personal relationships, we couldn't control our emotional natures, we were a prey to misery and depression, we couldn't make a living, we had a feeling of uselessness, we were full of fear, we were unhappy, we couldn't seem to be of real help to other people was not a basic solution of these bedevilments more important than whether we should see newsreels of lunar flight? Of course it was.

When we saw others solve their problems by a simple reliance upon the Spirit of the Universe, we had to stop doubting the power of God. Our ideas did not work. But the God idea did.
The Wright brothers' almost childish faith that they could build a machine which would fly was the mainspring of their accomplishment. Without that, nothing could have happened. We agnostics and atheists were sticking to the idea that self- sufficiency would solve our problems. When others showed us that "God-sufficiency worked with them, we began to feel like those who had insisted the Wrights would never fly.

Logic is great stuff. We like it. We still like it. It is not by chance we were given the power to reason, to examine the evidence of our sense, and to draw conclusions. That is one of man's magnificent attributes. We agnostically inclined would not feel satisfied with a proposal which does not lend itself to reasonable approach and interpretation. Hence we are at pains to tell why we think our present faith is reasonable, why we think it more sane and logical to believe than not to believe, why we say our former thinking was soft and mushy when we threw up our hands in doubt and said, "We don't know."

When we became alcoholics, crushed by a self-imposed crises we could not postpone or evade, we had to fearlessly face the proposition that either God is everything or else He is nothing. God either is or He isn't. What was our choice to be?
Arrived at this point, we were squarely confronted with the question of faith. We couldn't duck the issue. Some of us had already walked far over the Bridge of Reason toward the desired shore of faith. The outlines and the promise of the New Land had brought lustre to tired eyes and fresh courage to flagging spirits. Friendly hands had stretched out in welcome. We were grateful that Reason had brought us so far. But somehow, we couldn't quite step ashore. Perhaps we had been leaning too heavily on reason that last mile and we did not like to lose our support.

That was natural, but let us think a little more closely. Without knowing it, had we not been brought to where we stood by a certain kind of faith? For did we not believe in our own reasoning? did we not have confidence in our ability to think? What was that but a sort of faith? Yes, we had been faithful, abjectly faithful to the God of Reason. So, in one way or another, we discovered that faith had been involved all the time!

We found, too, that we had been worshippers. What a state of mental goose-flesh that used to bring on! Had we not variously worshipped people, sentiment, things, money, and ourselves? And then, with a better motive, had we not worshipfully beheld the sunset, the sea, or a flower? Who of us had not loved something or somebody? How much did these feelings, these loves, these worships, have to do with pure reason? Little or nothing, we saw at last. Were not these things the tissue out of which our lives were constructed? Did not these feelings, after all, determine the course of our existence? It was impossible to say we had no capacity for faith, or love, or worship. In one form or another we had been living by faith and little else.

Imagine life without faith! Were nothing left but pure reason, it wouldn't be life. But we believed in life of course we did. We could not prove life in the sense that you can prove a straight line is the shortest distance between two points, yet, there it was. Could we still say the whole thing was nothing but a mass of electrons, created out of nothing, meaning nothing, whirling on to a destiny of nothingness? Or course we couldn't. The electrons themselves seemed more intelligent than that. At least, so the chemist said.
Hence, we saw that reason isn't everything. Neither is reason, as most of us use it, entirely dependable, thought it emanate from our best minds. What about people who proved that man could never fly? Yet we had been seeing another kind of flight, a spiritual liberation from this world, people who rose above their problems. They said God made these things possible, and we only smiled. We had seen spiritual release, but liked to tell ourselves it wasn't true.

Actually we were fooling ourselves, for deep down in every man, woman, and child, is the fundamental idea of God. It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or other it is there. For faith in a Power greater than ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations of that power in human lives, are facts as old as man himself.

We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend. Sometimes we had to search fearlessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us.

We can only clear the ground a bit. If our testimony helps sweep away prejudice, enables you to think honestly, encourages you to search diligently within yourself, then, if you wish, you can join us on the Broad Highway. With this attitude you cannot fail. the consciousness of your belief is sure to come to you.

In this book you will read the experience of a man who thought he was an atheist. His story is so interesting that some of it should be told now. His change of heart was dramatic, convincing, and moving. Our friend was a minister's son. He attended church school, where he became rebellious at what he thought an overdose of religious education. For years thereafter he was dogged by trouble and frustration. Business failure, insanity, fatal illness, suicide these calamities in his immediate family embittered and depressed him. Post-war disillusionment, ever more serious alcoholism, impending mental and physical collapse, brought him to the point to self-destruction.

One night, when confined in a hospital, he was approached by an alcoholic who had known a spiritual experience. Our friend's gorge rose as he bitterly cried out: "If there is a God, He certainly hasn't done anything for me!" But later, alone in his room, he asked himself this question: "Is it possible that all the religious people I have known are wrong?" While pondering the answer he felt as though he lived in hell. Then, like a thunderbolt, a great thought came. It crowded out all else:
"Who are you to say there is no God?"

This man recounts that he tumbled out of bed to his knees. In a few seconds he was overwhelmed by a conviction of the Presence of God. It poured over and through him with the certainty and majesty of a great tide at flood. The barriers he had built through the years were swept away. He stood in the Presence of Infinite Power and Love. He had stepped from bridge to shore. For the first time, he lived in conscious companionship with his Creator.

Thus was our friend's cornerstone fixed in place. No later vicissitude has shaken it. His alcoholic problem was taken away. That very night, years ago, it disappeared. Save for a few brief moments of temptation the though of drink has never returned; and at such times a great revulsion has risen up in him. Seemingly he could not drink even if he would. God had restored his sanity.
What is this but a miracle of healing? Yet its elements are simple. Circumstances made him willing to believe. He humbly offered himself to his Maker then he knew.

Even so has God restored us all to our right minds. To this man, the revelation was sudden. Some of us grow into it more slowly. But He has come to all who have honestly sought Him.
When we drew near to Him He disclosed Himself to us.

[Wflash]

Originally Posted by beentheredonethatagain

There has to be a power greater than myself somewhere outside the rooms , right? I couldnt build a computer from scratch or I couldn't give a dog life, or make one cloud rain, there are infinte things that I couldn't have enough power on my own to do.
nowhere.

Of course not. No one could.

But you could probably stick a pile of bits and pieces of stuff together at random.

Most of them would just be just that. Bits and pieces of nothing much.

But one or two might by luck do something a bit useful and basic, that the individual parts didn't do on their own.

You could then take them and add some new bits and pieces to a pile of the already useful combinations. Most additions would again be useless, or add nothing new, but one or two might do something even more useful still.

But you're only human. You only live for 80 years or so. Even tinkering experimentally all your life you're not going to get a million miles from making something as useful and complicated as a computer. Or even the simplest of living organisms.

But if someone was to start randomly adding components to a pile of the best stuff you had made after your life. And then when he or she died someone else took up where they left off using the best and most complex example of your combined efforts.

And so on for millions upon millions of lifetimes.

For a living dog to pop into existence from nothing would be clear evidence of a higher power that no one could debate. But every new add-on doesn't start from scratch. All the useful add ons get kept and those that don't add anything get scrapped. So every new set of random add ons and alterations, that have taken place over millenia, only started with the best of what's gone before - only adding to it minutely. Til we get to the complexity around us today.

It sometimes surprises me that living things aren't even more complex than they are given the time that random mutations have had to improve them.

I'll never know if there's a higher power or not.

Unless I meet him/her I suppose.

I certainly wouldn't be arrogant enough to state that I know there isn't.

But when you actually get how evolution works, it's wonderful. But it seems to me that there's then nothing to suggest there needs to be a higher power in order for our world in the universe to exist the way it is.

So on the basis of the evidence I've seen, I'm gonna work under the assumption that there probably isn't.

So I won't be blaming anyone else for my fuck ups and I'll be taking personal responsibility for sorting them out.

But if others feel happier to surrender control to some other power, then I won't try to discourage them and I'll wish them nothing but good.

And hope the sentiment's reciprocated.

[omen8productions]

SWIM isnt sure what to say, so he'll say a lot. he has been in and out of detox and rehab for three years. only within the last seven months has he found his answer. which is sort of what it has come down too. a personal very personal choice.

AA (& NA, etc...), does employ the use of god as it's founding principle, but that comes down to a common denominator. the stress is on a higher power before any specific rendition of it. a drunk is one of the weakest forms of human. there is nothing he can do for himself. that is why the second step, after admitting you are powerless, is to accept the fact that you are not in control, that you are not god. it seems like most addicts are obsessed with control, and coping with the fact that they are powerless, in the long run.

it goes on from there to accepting the fact that this higher power can save you, and then literally turning your entire life over to it. that is where SWIM gets hung up. turning his life over to a higher power he has only seen hints of behind the curtain seems like a poor idea to jump into, especially half-heartedly.

being a total drunk is only a hair above suicide.

[rodent]

a drunk is one of the weakest forms of human

I will have to disagree with that. One of my best friends was for most of his life a total alcoholic, although a quite functional one. He never got married nor had many serious relationships with a significant other for the 10 years I knew him but he worked very hard, paid his own bills and had a very close group of good friends and family. I also know this isn't your typical drunk but I wouldn't have described him weak in any way. He drank so much that his body finally quit at age 43 just a few years ago. We loved him the way he was.

Writing this makes me wonder what AA would have done for him... he might have lived longer but would he have stayed friends with us? Would he have been happy eventually after sobering up?

I just don't buy it that humans are so weak that they can do nothing for themselves. I've seen even the most pathetic of humans do some incredible things for themselves and others without claiming God was behind it all.

[Forthesevenlakes]

Originally Posted by omen8productions

a drunk is one of the weakest forms of human. there is nothing he can do for himself.

Maybe in the most extreme cases if one's talking about people who do little but drink or get money for drinking. But this statement seems myopic to me. What's more likely is that you'd see a distribution of alcoholism, with functional alcoholics comprising the majority of alcoholism cases, and the truly powerless drunks would be a small portion at the end of the distribution. However, since the most extreme drunks are also the most visible and salient in society, that's who people will think of when someone thinks "alcoholic". It's a simple availability heuristic. Most likely you could not tell if someone is an alcoholic just by looking at them, however, since to pay for their habit they'd have to be holding down a job, keep their alcoholism hidden from family and friends, etc. So while SOME drunks may be powerless, it seems unfair to state that ALL of them are. For those who are truly powerless, maybe AA is the best bet for them. But for many, perhaps a different strategy (for example cognitive behavioral therapy) could work as well if not better than AA.

[Riconoen {UGC}]

All AA does is shift the blame from the person to someone else, in this case god. They make it seem like they are powerless to control thier habit which is a load of bullshit, god didndt make them drink a bottle of smirnoff they chose to do that. I hate the 12 steps and it's a damn shame our government forces people to go to that cultist crap when there are much better alternatives out there to help people control thier addictions.

[omen8productions]

i guess i'd like to know if any of these someones are addicts themselves.

[Forthesevenlakes]

Originally Posted by omen8productions

i guess i'd like to know if any of these someones are addicts themselves.

No, but SWIM does work with many people with substance abuse/dependence issues, so he sees a pretty good cross-section of people who meet criteria for alcohol dependence. Many of them are completely functional. So while SWIM is not a foremost authority on the matter (yet), he does speak from theoretical and emperical experience on it.

By the way, if SWIY was attempting to degenerate the thread into an argumentum ad homenim, that's usually not considered a valid debate technique. If SWIY was not, then disregard that last sentence. =]

[Trebor]

My uncle went through it, he was drinking again in 2 days. It doesn't work.