Piperazine Newbie

[Axel78]

This post is an apology to the moderator. SWIM remembers your response, Mona Lisa.

SWIM wonders about combos. SWIM wonders about meOPP, mcPP, TFMPP, and flipiperazine. (1-(meta-chlorophenyl)piperazine, Trifluoromethylphenylpiperazine, 1-(4-Methoxyphenyl)piperazine & flipiperazine). SWIM heard from someone that "50mgs of mcPP mixed with 100mgs of meOPP" would be an MDMA-type experience, but Someone-Who-Isn't-Me isn't looking for that and doesn't want to freak out on unexperienced substances, making Mona Lisa's advice much appreciated.

SWIM has l-tyrosine, l-tryptophan, B complex, Cs (ascorbic acid, calcium ascorbate), grape seed extract, milk thistle, l-taurine, r-lipoic acid (r isomer alpha lipoic acid), the nootropics piracetam and aniracetam. SWIM also has vitamin D, which SWIM tells me can help blunt cortisol's harmful effects on the body. SWIM also knows about supplementing with choline when using the nootropics, which the 'cetams deplete. SWIM is very physical and has a weight trained body; SWIM is conditioned to thrive under physical stress.

This thread may be a discussion, but also likely a place where SWIM can relay, through the OP, his/her's experience(s) on a 'zine or combo.

[Axel78]

I've talked to SWIM since SWIM has experimented with the above mentioned piperazines (except flipiperazine). SWIM reports the following:

mcPP. Very hard from the onset of effects. This could be called the acute phase? First hour is the worst. Some posters here have written of it causing anxiety and fear of death thoughts. The measured dose was at 20-30mg from a pharmacy's scale, so I trust SWIM's information (SWIM is around 150-158 pounds (70 kg)). Salvia divinorum is to psychosis as mcPP is to panic attack or anxiety disorder. 'nuff said? No. SWIM also reports that after difficult acute phase the serotonin scene helps push the attitude towards a happier place, but all of this is very dependent on the thoughts entertained and the setting. Not a strong push into the happy world of a good trip, a very temperamental world of anxiety and stimulation of CNS. Jaw clenching and other muscular tension may occur, and keep re-occuring like when cannabis can fractionate one's conscious mind. Unfortunately not providing the dopamine. Not for the feint of heart but at times can be quite rewarding.

mcPP is powerful and is the big kick. Hard stuff, psychologically nasty if not done right, with a taste to match.

TFMPP. SWIM reports this does not produce the kind of body anxiety that mcPP can. Where mcPP causes chest constriction (body perception much like when we are... panicked!) and stimulation (way beyond caffeine) TFMPP is much more cerebral/emotional and psychological in nature. The heart has MANY neurons in it, and obviously is part of our emotional processing and experience. The heart has sensitivity to hormones and neuro-hormones and is in hormonal and neurological connection with all the organs, including the brain. TFMPP is fantastic for forcing a person into the state of mind that questions.. everything. A bit too much on higher dose. TFMPP can last long at high doses. mcPP seems to subside around 4-5 hours with safe doses (why would someone want to trip hard on mcPP SWIM asks me, SWIM refuses to use much mcPP). TFMPP has been recommended at 100mg, even 150mg. SWIM reports that 120mg of TFMPP was a hard trip that started at 5pm and lasted into 2am, a long hard dark night of the soul. Expect to cry, and wonder why at the entire universe. Cry like a tortured little baby. SWIM couldn't stop feeling on TFMPP. Those without compassion, inconsiderate, unfeeling people should be given mandatory injections of TFMPP when in public.

TFMPP could cause noticeable euphoria, but actually best when combined with very light dose of mcPP. Temperamental piperazines don't have the reliability of a dopaminergic reward system, best if combined with something better. SWIM couldn't get a hold of any cannabis for these experiments, but SWIM has plenty of experience with cannabis and that looks like a really great stack. SWIM thinks cannabis with strong TFMPP would make someone really care, really intense psychological session with motivation and creativity and heightened mood and body pleasure with cannabis. A possibly fantastic experience, or a deeper nightmare than most people's daily grind.

meoPP. Methoxylated. Some reports on Erowid suggest this is soft, or doesn't do anything. SWIM says it is hard to tell exactly what meoPP DOES. There is the feelings in the brain, especially the back, a thickness, definently an activity and some increase in body temperature, but no immense psychological activity. There is some difficulty getting to sleep. Where mcPP was 20-50mg, TFMPP 50-120mg meoPP is.. 150mg to start. SWIM eyeballed the largest test dose of meoPP and had an estimated 300-400mg in one night. No great mood, no misery either. Definently some delay getting to sleep but surprisingly little hard interference. When SWIM got to bed (around normal time) SWIM definently experienced a free-going visual show, closed-eye visuals. Nothing special, just the natural hypnogogic visuals that can sometimes be caught consciously before going into a deeper brain wave pattern. SWIM reports the next day was some dizziness, but no nausea, so while meoPP does not have any "hard" effects it is still doing something and drains the brain of neurotransmitters and hormones. meoPP would be a stacker, but who knows what it would be worthwhile to stack with..

SWIM says SWIM has schizotypal personality disorder so SWIM's brain is not the same as 70-90% of a given population. SWIM did not experience any schizophrenic symptoms, cannot as SWIM is not ingesting any common compounds that push SWIM's brain into experiencing that (schizotypal personality disorder is NOT the same as schizophrenia). SWIM cautions that increased connections across the corpus callosum may give SWIM an unfair advantage in regulating SWIM's body under the influence of particularly strong piperazines like mcPP. SWIM reports no hallucinations, not even exaggerations of beautiful plants. SWIM reports that SWIM has the over-positive vibes of a freshman college girl at work who interferes with the emotional effects of piperazines, pushing SWIM into too much euphoria. SWIM is proud that SWIM is aware of this and doesn't attribute some of the very high euphoric experiences under the influence of piperazines to the piperazines. The piperazines aren't hard enough to interfere with other's vibes in the shared psychedelic mind-soup of our Universe, but they can definently leave something psychologically very vulnerable while under their influence.

People with any suicidal tendencies, even if they were past tendencies, should lock all the guns and knives away and have a sitter if they intend to use TFMPP. That's what SWIM recommends. Those people should not do TFMPP alone or in risky situations in higher dosages. Ever. Experience with a compound does not reduce that compound's strength. Some of these piperazines lock the mind into the question mode, which may be good for some things. It is similar to being very sick, in that feverish state all the memories from the past as the mind becomes strangely active, possibly starved from too much time in bed but also because neurons are randomly firing off for no apparent reason, and the mind that is almost in survival modes questions anew everything put before it. Very interesting, especially the TFMPP.

SWIM says a good time can easily be had, literally hours of high joy, things like a walk or good video games or a hot whirlpool and sauna. Not strenuous, intense things. SWIM says it is like making oneself sick, psychologically one is less able to deal with regular life. Fears of everything well up for SWIM, thoughts intermittently turning to irrational concerns of SWIM's life, pouring the filtered water into glass bottles for the future (where there is no water and SWIM is desperate for water), making sure the fridge has plenty of prepared foods in case SWIM is hungry (fear of hunger and/or lack of food). SWIM reports the pushing of the mind into survival anxiety and the gripping of the chest and the intense emotional nature of the mcPP and TFMPP leave these piperazines for people who are not looking for an easy time. They can be conducive to a great time, even shunting one into hours of gleefulness, but the other side is also possible.

SWIM used ginger and meclizine as anti-emetic (anti-nausea) for this initial piperazine research. Both worked. The mcPP was the worst for what could be considered nausea, but it was mostly just fear gripping the body and mind. NAC (n-acetyl-cysteine) and milk thistle and B vitamins and fat soluble vitamins D and A and E were stocked up. SWIM reports very good experience when combining "Lean Xtreme" (an anti-cortisol product used in bodybuilding). "Rebound Xtreme" may also be very good for easing a hard piperazine trip. Meat of some sort is really preferable, says SWIM. SWIM says without the good meat (red meat, chicken, shrimp, etc.) and adequate fat intake, and carbs the downward spiral may be too strong and the piperazines can launch SWIM into hell. Exercise and/or cannabis would be good dopamine boosters. Tobacco sucks. Alcohol can be tolerated but it's no doubt not as good as cannabis (especially for body high). SWIM realizes that piperazines make one psychologically vulnerable, making good food even more important for upholding the modicum of neuro-physiological decency needed to make the trip worthwhile.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Excellent write up! Clear, detailed, a potentially valuable addition. Not many people seem to go into the emotional espe...
	Thats a deep trip report bro, thanx for posting

[DracoRincewind]

So I'm guessing TFMPP would be bad for someone with Severe Depression.

Originally Posted by Axel78

TFMPP. SWIM reports this does not produce the kind of body anxiety that mcPP can. Where mcPP causes chest constriction (body perception much like when we are... panicked!) and stimulation (way beyond caffeine) TFMPP is much more cerebral/emotional and psychological in nature. The heart has MANY neurons in it, and obviously is part of our emotional processing and experience. The heart has sensitivity to hormones and neuro-hormones and is in hormonal and neurological connection with all the organs, including the brain. TFMPP is fantastic for forcing a person into the state of mind that questions.. everything. A bit too much on higher dose. TFMPP can last long at high doses. mcPP seems to subside around 4-5 hours with safe doses (why would someone want to trip hard on mcPP SWIM asks me, SWIM refuses to use much mcPP). TFMPP has been recommended at 100mg, even 150mg. SWIM reports that 120mg of TFMPP was a hard trip that started at 5pm and lasted into 2am, a long hard dark night of the soul. Expect to cry, and wonder why at the entire universe. Cry like a tortured little baby. SWIM couldn't stop feeling on TFMPP. Those without compassion, inconsiderate, unfeeling people should be given mandatory injections of TFMPP when in public.

TFMPP could cause noticeable euphoria, but actually best when combined with very light dose of mcPP. Temperamental piperazines don't have the reliability of a dopaminergic reward system, best if combined with something better. SWIM couldn't get a hold of any cannabis for these experiments, but SWIM has plenty of experience with cannabis and that looks like a really great stack. SWIM thinks cannabis with strong TFMPP would make someone really care, really intense psychological session with motivation and creativity and heightened mood and body pleasure with cannabis. A possibly fantastic experience, or a deeper nightmare than most people's daily grind.


People with any suicidal tendencies, even if they were past tendencies, should lock all the guns and knives away and have a sitter if they intend to use TFMPP. That's what SWIM recommends. Those people should not do TFMPP alone or in risky situations in higher dosages. Ever. Experience with a compound does not reduce that compound's strength. Some of these piperazines lock the mind into the question mode, which may be good for some things. It is similar to being very sick, in that feverish state all the memories from the past as the mind becomes strangely active, possibly starved from too much time in bed but also because neurons are randomly firing off for no apparent reason, and the mind that is almost in survival modes questions anew everything put before it. Very interesting, especially the TFMPP.

SWIM says a good time can easily be had, literally hours of high joy, things like a walk or good video games or a hot whirlpool and sauna. Not strenuous, intense things. SWIM says it is like making oneself sick, psychologically one is less able to deal with regular life. Fears of everything well up for SWIM, thoughts intermittently turning to irrational concerns of SWIM's life, pouring the filtered water into glass bottles for the future (where there is no water and SWIM is desperate for water), making sure the fridge has plenty of prepared foods in case SWIM is hungry (fear of hunger and/or lack of food). SWIM reports the pushing of the mind into survival anxiety and the gripping of the chest and the intense emotional nature of the mcPP and TFMPP leave these piperazines for people who are not looking for an easy time. They can be conducive to a great time, even shunting one into hours of gleefulness, but the other side is also possible.

SWIM used ginger and meclizine as anti-emetic (anti-nausea) for this initial piperazine research. Both worked. The mcPP was the worst for what could be considered nausea, but it was mostly just fear gripping the body and mind. NAC (n-acetyl-cysteine) and milk thistle and B vitamins and fat soluble vitamins D and A and E were stocked up. SWIM reports very good experience when combining "Lean Xtreme" (an anti-cortisol product used in bodybuilding). "Rebound Xtreme" may also be very good for easing a hard piperazine trip. Meat of some sort is really preferable, says SWIM. SWIM says without the good meat (red meat, chicken, shrimp, etc.) and adequate fat intake, and carbs the downward spiral may be too strong and the piperazines can launch SWIM into hell. Exercise and/or cannabis would be good dopamine boosters. Tobacco sucks. Alcohol can be tolerated but it's no doubt not as good as cannabis (especially for body high). SWIM realizes that piperazines make one psychologically vulnerable, making good food even more important for upholding the modicum of neuro-physiological decency needed to make the trip worthwhile.

[renegades]

Swim has used some of these RC compounds listed a long time ago - 7 years so swim is going by memory. Because it has been awhile swim is not sure of the amounts he used What swim did was mix 1-Benylpiperazine Hydrochlorade (BZP)(50mg?), 1,(3-Trifluromehtylphenyl) piperzine monohydrochloride(TMFPP) (100mg?), and 1-Benylpiperazine Hydrochlorade dihydrochloride (25mg?) into a cap. Swim was hoping for a MDMA subsitute but these three compounds disappointed every time. BZP gives swim energy, but the body load sucks - feels like swim is hooked into a light socket, TMFPP never gave swim those warm feelings except for hot flashes and the last one just made swim feel chilled, So swim stop taking that last one but still took the BZP and TMFPP which in swims' opinion felt like a very dirty high. Lots of body load. When other 2Cs started to appear which swim perfered over her cocktail, she never did another piperazine again. However you list others which swim has not tried, so it still might work with the right amount of the right chemicals. Good luck. Oh, kudos to Axel78 for all the info, quite insightful. Wish swim knew that 7 years ago.

[headstrong]

SWIM has tried all of them in many combination including mbzp,he say that all combo is a dirty MDMA. The best experience:when SWIM combined it with Meth and XTC,but it the best from the bad experiences lol. So,try small dose.

[Durd1e]

In swims opinion the best combination of piperazines is bzp, meopp and mcpp in a ratio of 3:2:1 and sensible amount (200mg BZP max) - it is, in his opinion stimulating, euphoric and just trippy enough to give him food for thought.

A little alcohol on the comedown helps him enormously but he finds it very necessary to stay hydrated as piperazines are very unforgiving if one makes the mistake of not hydrating oneself.

[0utrider]

interesting posts, swim is looking for low-dose combos with bzp that strengthen the bzp experience without interfering to much with it

[headstrong]

He think SwiO should try piracetam, he ever tried 400 mg piracetam with BZP combo (BZP + MeOPP + pFPP), enrich the experience. But he is an Asian, may be 400 mg isn't enough for European.

Meth + pipperazines is good, but be careful, try low dose before.