Insomnia - quitting opiates.. need advise

[freedom]

Hi
SWIMs been using opiates for just over a year now, mostly heroin and sometimes morph, occasionaly subitex and oxycontins.He has always tried to keep the use low, but the fast few months hes been using too much. periodds hes used daily. ISWIM quit for 3 days about 3 days ago, but gave in due to the insomnia. ISWIM just cant stand feeling so strung out, no energy at all the whole day then not being able to sleep. He also smokes very little pot now and dont think it will help me sleep as it has made him anxious lately. the question is what is there that can help him sleep, either herbal or otc drugs. he can handle every other aspect of withdrawal except being awake through every minute of it. he has always been a very bad sleeper. so please only suggest something that is very effective in helping sleep. he really appreciates anyone who can help, and it is thanks to whoever helps me with this question for his quitting of opiates. thank you very much

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[Nicaine]

Can you talk to a doc and get a small (e.g. 2 week supply) of Ambien or something?

If not, 5-HTP is a pretty good sleep inducer/regulator for some. Take 50-100mg about an hour before bed time to start, adjust timing and dosage as needed. You could also add Taurine and L-Theanine to the mix for more relaxation.

If nothing else, Phenibut would probably do the trick.

[Forthesevenlakes]

5-HTP, melatonin, and valerian can all be used with varying degrees of success to help one get to sleep. Diphenhydramine (but not too much) could also be tried...perhaps about 100 mg or so. A few shots of alcohol could also work.

Nicaine is right though, talk to a doctor, get some ambien or sonata, or a VERY SMALL amount of benzodiazepines...cuz swiy doesnt want to swap an opiate habit for a benzo one.

Please UTFSE to find out more about kicking opiates, theres a ton of threads that could probably help swiy out too.

[Nature Boy]

Gradual lowering of SWIY's opiate dosage might be an option. This requires discipline though. Exercise and detox would also help. Benzos, as mentioned, is another option but don't become reliant on them. Even try cooking cannabis and eating it. This is very effective as a sleeping aid to some.

[freedom]

SWIM is off to the doc tommorow to try and get a prescription med till the withdrawal period is over. SWIM has used 5-htp and actually found it kept SWIM awake more than anything, and a couple of hours later actually felt anxiety. SWIM is sure he has seratonin issues however as it did help his overall mood and actually warmed up his usually cold body temp. SWIM is hoping to get another diazapam script(although a bit hesitant as he has abused this before, and stupid doses too) as his anxiety is a lot worse in this period, and they did help with his sleep although not always even when not comming off anything. SWIM also abused dramamine and is now kind of scared to touch it again, not because of a bad experience, but through stupid fear as he felt it might have done him some damage). Obviously SWIM is a bad sleeper anyway but has always found a way to get by but looks like the doc will have to assist with this one. SWIM will do his best not to simply replace the addiction as he has done with various drugs for some time now, but if ors does come to worse he hopes its just pot. SWIM believe it or not feels he has a strong will inside of him, however he has been through a very tough time the past year or 2 which has gottten the better of him. He looks forward to resuming his hallucinogen use and to start moving forward again and no more going in circles as it has been for some time. SWIM thanks you all very kindly for your help and support.

[allyourbase]

SWIM was once an addict. the two or three weeks of hell trying to break the physical addiction just cannot be helped. as for the insomnia, SWIM would advise SWIY get SWIYs hands on some low strength barbiturates. phenobarbitol really helped SWIM through. remember doctor patient confidentiality. if you tell a doctor SWIYs story, and are upfront with why one wants the meds and make sure SWIY specifys not to give SWIY an abuseable amount just a useable one, its highly unlikely the doctor will deny SWIY. SWIM would advise barbs over benzos or medications like ambien because barbs can ease the muscle tension that SWIM knows causes much discomfort during withdrawl.

[wellhelm]

Swim completly agree's with swiallyourbass. There is little if anything that can help. Swim loves these posts though because he is reminded of the hell opiates addiction can be but he feels for those still in it. The horrible insomnia fed by that constantly freezing cold feeling is definatly the worst part. Swim remembers getting smashed a few times which seemed to help with the cold part and sleep sometimes, but it is a depressant and can feed allready depressing thoughts when dealing with withdrawal. Other than that you just have to stick it out and it does get better and if you do make it out you'll swear to god to never go back(at least swim did and won't). Swim won't even use kratom for fear of likeing it to much.

[BUZZFACTOR]

Swim agrees with the last two posts. Swim was also horribly addicted to opiates a few years back and swim remembers the withdrawal like it was yesterday. The worst of it for swim was the bone racking chills, insomnia, and the crawling skin. As allyourbase suggested swim agrees that a small amount of barb will help the insomnia but don't use this for long. The insomnia associated with barb withdrawal is every bit as bad as opiate withdrawal. Swim feels for swiy, hang in there and never forget what you're going thru, it's a great deterant for not getting strung out in the future.

[bewilderment]

As forthesevenlakes suggested, some diphenhydramine could possibly help...it's not dramamine as that is Dimenhydrinate. Diphenhydramine can be found in benadryl as well as many over-the-counter sleep aids. But, instead of 100mg, definately start with 50mg as that is the recommended dosage if I recall correctly. I have really horrible insomnia and actually find that Doxylamine Succinate sometimes helps and sometimes better than diphenhydramine. Doxylamine Succinate can also be found in many OTC sleep aids. Take care.

[Forthesevenlakes]

as AYB suggested, barbiturates can help too, although they still do have addiction potential. If swiy uses barbiturates dont combine them with alcohol since that can be lethal! Marijuana can definitely help with sleeping and some of the physical pain too.

SWIM has found that DXM in dosages of 30-60 mg can help with the physical pain greatly, too, and that 10 mg propranolol if swiy can get it from his doctor will help with some of the social anxiety and reluctance to function in social settings. Good luck and hang in there. Opiate addiction is not an easy thing to kick, but it can be done, and the members of the forum will help SWIY out as much as we can with advice and support. Please post again, let us know how you are doing or shoot me PM i you want any info or words of encouragement!

[freedom]

Thankyou very much everyone for your support, it means a lot to swim. swim ended up using both yesterday and today as he uses any issues that arise in his life as an excuse. today he got prescribed (unfortunately only 10) temazepam 10mgs to help him sleep. the doctor was very cautious and was very nice to do what he did for swim as where he lives these sort of drugs are not allowed to be prescribed to heroin addicts because they can easily OD if they are used in combination with smack. swim is off work and has been for over a year due to a serious injury he got at his last workplace. he is now capable to go back to work except is finding it near impossible to get the motivation to do so. and this also leaves all the time in the world for his mind to dwell on having a shot, and he has a large amount of cash from a payout which he is just using to turn into more money the obvious way a druggo such as myself does. he has interests he wants to pursue such as getting his mushroom grow up and running, but he is so limited as he has never had a lisence or car. he was always the odd one out and loner with people, has few friends because he just isnt like everyone else, he feels so many people just fit in with the crowd, are egotistical, and just dont be true to themselves. so its hard for him to enjoy himself without getting fucked up and just keeping busy pushing drugs. he feels trapped, lost and lonely. im sorry for my rambling on, he will shut up now he just had to let that out. he will hopefully have the strength in him to kick this habit and hopefully things will improve from there...
thanks again everyone for the support, i will take your advice

[kevip7]

Is it possible to quite opiates with little w/d using subboxone with a swim that is using 150mg of hydro a day? If not what level should the swim be at to start a subboxone treatment?

[Forthesevenlakes]

Originally Posted by kevip7

Is it possible to quite opiates with little w/d using subboxone with a swim that is using 150mg of hydro a day? If not what level should the swim be at to start a subboxone treatment?

should be possible, 8 mg suboxone is used for people on 120 mg of morphine a day, so 150 mg of hydro would probably be fine for a suboxone taper.

[kevip7]

Thanks but disagree, swim did try 6mg of subboxone one day and failed big time. I would think twice that amount of subboxone.. anyway just trying to get a feel or opinions so swim knows when to switch over, thanks

[Forthesevenlakes]

Odd, 8 mg buprenorphine seemed to work for the individual in question, but everyone is different. Also having opiates in the body at the time of buprenorphine administration might impact its efficacy. Don't people usually start bupe maintenence when they are in the beginning of withdrawal? SWIM doesnt know the answer, but maybe someone else here does. SWIM's only experience with buprenorphine involved the 0.2 mg sublingual tablets, which worked just fine for him, but SWIM's tolerance is lower than SWIY's.

[kevip7]

Yeah swim heard you start when you begin to withdrawel. Swims tolerance is very high, way to high for swims liking so swim is beginning to cut down on doc prescribed doses. Swim will try to get down to one 40mg Oxy and then maybe swim will be ready, kinda hard to judge whats the perfect level as swims body has been flooded with narcotics for past year, fentyl, morphine, hydro, oxy...

[Forthesevenlakes]

At 40 mg oxy a day, swiKev could theoretically do it cold turkey without much of a problem. The thing would be getting 7-10 days off from work to detox. And that's assuming that SWIY can fight the cravings. But, if SWIY ever decides against the bupes, 40 mg a day oxycodone would be a reasonable place to stop entirely. Buprenorphine could probably be done even at 80 mg oxycodone a day.

[kevip7]

Swim is on 80 a day plus about 70-80mg of hydro as well. Swim is looking to stop the hydro and get down to one 40mg Oxy. Then Subboxone. Swim has gone through this before from Hydro only, it took swim 5 weeks for the pain w/d to stop, intense bone pain in the legs which I didnt see listed here, that was the worst for the swim I know. 1 week will not work. For sleep for others I recommend Trazadone, but high levels can lead to nightmares. Swims cravings are not mental but physical.. its hard for swim cause he quits his meds swim is back in regular pain that he was prescribed the meds for. Swim is tired of it all, swim now has to go in for bone scan with radio isotope injections and then off to 3ard neurologist. Swim is getting a bit tired, swim cant miss a single more day of work either, some days swim wakes up in almost full blown w/d, very hard for swim to drag his but to work. Swim also has to use a small amount of benzos as well every few days due to some anxiety or jitters, not sure if this is normal side affect from opiates, swim told me its almost like a panic attack, chest tightens, blood pressure goes up..

[freedom]

SMIM actually just recently got on the suboxone treatment. he is on 8mg/day. he actually experiences the pain in joints u are talking about, just in the upper joint on the legs, very painful walking. he never really has heard anyone else complain about it strangely enough. he finds suboxone has helped him greatly, w/d almost gone, joint pain still there but coldness/goosebumbs gone, no runny nose, lot less lathargic, has energy to do things and can sleep ok and just generally doesnt think of it barely as much. if u got a big tollerance and seriously want to get off em swim reccomends giving it a try.

[Forthesevenlakes]

Didn't realize that the w/d's lasted so long for SWIKevip, never heard of them going on that long, but SWIM believes swiy. In that case buprenorphine would be the best option since its completely unfeasible to be away from work for five weeks. SWIM has heard of lab rats mention the joint pain, it might be less common, but SWIM doesn't know for sure. Maybe most people get it and didn't mention it, that could be the case too. But definitely taper off using bupes if SWIY has withdrawals lasting that long, that sounds like hell.

[kevip7]

Yep swim says its hell, almost killed him. Subboxone worked for lower levels for the swim but not this high. The pain I was told is bone pain in the shins not joints, but those hurt too.. and yes swim says 5 weeks, swim will never quit cold turkey ever again.. good luck with your swims Subboxone, its good stuff, swim was on it for almost 5 months and then got hurt and then had to go back to hydro, this swim cant catch a break