physical addiction to alcohol, how fast?

[Akewstick]

let's imagine someone drank on average 1.5-2 bottle of wine a night, 5-6 nights a week, how long before they'd start going wrong?

I know there's not a straightforward response to this, but how long (estimates can be as vague as you like) before they're gonna get the shakes if they stopped abruptly?

[zera]

Based on the experience of SWIM and SWIM's friends at spring break and other vacations, 5-10 days of that amount of drinking (depending on your bodyweight, tolerance and gender) will give you the shakes and some other unpleasant withdrawal symptons, but nothing too bad like the Delirium Tremors.

Swim's great grandfather who was the epitome of the ultra Irish alcoholic (he had his name tattooed on his knuckles) almost died from withdrawal one time, but he drank to a stupor pretty much every day of his adult life. I would guess one could get start getting seizures if you hit the sauce heavy for a month, maybe two. This isn't as easy as you'd think, the acumulated alcohol metabolites are going to make your hangovers get progressively worse. Also you're going to need to raise the dose as your tolerance develops.

Interesting fact, Swim's friend was an EMT and says that if they ever found someone in an alcohol withdrawal seizure that they'd give him a shot of whisky to stop it.

Reputation Comments on this post:

wow 5-10 day. that's new for SWIM

[CrookedEye]

Honestly, I don't think it's that fast.. Swim has drank everynight for many weeks, then stopped with only a minor craving (wanted a drink), no shakes or bad feelings.. Swim is sure everyones body, metabolism, chemical makeup, etc, is different, so a definite answer may be hard to come by.. Swim would imagine there may be some studies that could possibly give a likely range, but swim is at a loss to find one.. Also, just because one becomes alcohol dependent, doesn't mean they'll "go wrong"..

[zera]

CrookedEye,

Yeah thinking about it at the volumes the of the original poster (Swim's not used to drinking wine, so he doesn't have an intuitive sense of alcohol content), a bottle is 750 mL and alcohol content is about 12.5%, so that should come out to about 187.5 mL of ethanol, or about 6.5 ounces. That'd be about 6-7 beers or shots. When Swim experienced his withdrawal after 8 days of use he was drinking about two to three times that amount over the course of the day (though he's 89 kilos/200 lbs).

I think at the volumes cited in the original post it would take much much longer than what I cited in my first post. I think if you stayed at that amount tolerance might even make it so that you'd never really get any real withdrawal effects. Swim has friends who when they studied abroad drank that much or more every night for 6-8 weeks and as far as I know they had no real problems with withdrawal.

Reputation Comments on this post:

You may have just given SWIM a tattoo idea.

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

Originally Posted by CrookedEye

Swim is sure everyones body, metabolism, chemical makeup, etc, is different, so a definite answer may be hard to come by.. Swim would imagine there may be some studies that could possibly give a likely range, but swim is at a loss to find one.. Also, just because one becomes alcohol dependent, doesn't mean they'll "go wrong"..

yes. and women acutally have a much less likelyhood of becoming physically addicted because they metabolice alcohol faster than men

[Akewstick]

Thanks everyone, SWIM's mind is at ease. His head fucking hurts though.

[Klaus]

Interesting fact, Swim's friend was an EMT and says that if they ever found someone in an alcohol withdrawal seizure that they'd give him a shot of whisky to stop it.

Swim has worked in A+E. Just how are you going to get Whiskey down somebody who is having a seizure ?

[Jatelka]

Alcohol withdrawal seizures (as with any seizures) are treated with benzos: Rectally, iv/im, or sometimes (although an unlicensed indication) bucally.

[Misha]

Maybe after tree months(if you drink 5 times a week,only vodka or some other 40% and stronger alcohol with 1/2l dose. ).Swim has drunk 5 times a week and after more than tree months he had some big problems with blood presure and kidneys.doctor told swim that he only can drink a beer and nothing stronger.Before this tree months swim drank about 3 times a week for a one year.

Reputation Comments on this post:

good to know

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

Originally Posted by Misha

Maybe after tree months(if you drink 5 times a week,only vodka or some other 40% and stronger alcohol with 1/2l dose. ).Swim has drunk 5 times a week and after more than tree months he had some big problems with blood presure and kidneys.doctor told swim that he only can drink a beer and nothing stronger.Before this tree months swim drank about 3 times a week for a one year.

did swiy drink all at once? and did SWIY have any symtoms on withdrawl when quitting?

[Misha]

Originally Posted by WrtngCocaineTutorial

did swiy drink all at once? and did SWIY have any symtoms on withdrawl when quitting?

swim need about 30-45 min. to drink 1/2 litre of vodka...he didn`t have some big problems when he stop to drink strong alcohol because swim still doesn`t stop to drink beer.today,swim only drink beer 5-6 days on week.

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

SWIm also wonders how much which is needed to be physically addicted. With benzo's it's said that after approx 2 weeks, physical addiction starts, with herion it's also said about two weeks, but with the widely used and abused drug Alcohol, I can't find any info on such things.

Where I live, when you finish school, you get a "diploma" (among students) for staying drunk for 17days in a row..

Has anyone read any litterature about how much is needed of around clock drinking to become alcoholic?

[bcubed]

Originally Posted by WrtngCocaineTutorial

SWIm also wonders how much which is needed to be physically addicted. With benzo's it's said that after approx 2 weeks, physical addiction starts, with herion it's also said about two weeks, but with the widely used and abused drug Alcohol, I can't find any info on such things.

Where I live, when you finish school, you get a "diploma" (among students) for staying drunk for 17days in a row..

Has anyone read any litterature about how much is needed of around clock drinking to become alcoholic?

So much of alcohol's addictive potential--both in desire to drink habitually to excess and physical W/Ds are hugely dependant on the individual.

I read in a "recovery" book that you're at risk for "moderately severe" W/D if you drink >16oz (385ish ml?) of 0.40 alcohol for >10 days straight. I'm aware of one person who drank, like 28 oz (750) ml or so 5 days a week for a month, stopped abruptly, and had mild W/D that was basically like all the downsides of stimulants w/o the benefits. These symptoms started on day two sober and subsided after the third day. I suspect I'd be affected similarly if I were to do such a thing. Note, howver that it has been postulated that all hangovers include a subtle witdrawl component to the misery.

As to becoming an alcoholic: in today's medical discourse, alcohol dependency=/= alcoholism. The clinical definition is VERY easy to meet and basically consists of three questions, in it's most baisc form:
1. do you like getting drunk?
2. has anything bad ever happened to you as a reslut of being drunk?
3. Do you continue to like getting drunk?
I'd say yes to all 3 = 90% likely.

As to hangovers getting progressively worse: all the drunks I've come into contact with (not just SWIM) report diminishing hangovers: what feels nasty is not the effects of consuming booze, but the effects of NOT doing so.

[Dickon]

^ ^ ^ ^

Quickly adding that the following is a hypothetical dream scenario in which fish talk and say...

One thing alcoholics do not always do is get drunk. In heavy drinkers the body gets used to high concentrations of alcohol. Drinking to get drunk is usually a sign one isn't an alcoholic. The alcoholic is drinking habitually at a fairly steady level. A binge drinker on the other hand might to a 17-day bender (God what hell that sounds to me!).

As for getting to a state where you need treatment with Benzodiazepine (cf. Jatelka's post), for which I think the longer-acting benzos are recommended (specifically diazepam [Valium]: please correct me if this is outdated info Jatelka or other knowledgable source) this is quite rare, at least it was in the primary treatment centre I went into. Only one self-diagnosed alcoholic needed the Benzos. To get addicted to Alcohol to the state that you will withrdaw physically to the extent that Benzo treatment is needed is pretty hard if you ask me. This is pure observation, and is not meant to be taken as scientific fact. A few months drinking too much unless you're pushing a bottle/two bottles of vodka/day, will bring tolerance and habituation etc., but not true physical dependence. However note that convulsions and death may follow a physical withdrawal so it's always better to seek medical advice if you have any doubts about what to expect.

[Alfa]

Is it possible to define physical and/or psychological addiction in relation to alcohol intake?
i.e. if one takes X amount of alcohol in ml during X length of time on is likely to get physically addicted.
So, can you calculate this in amount of alcohol or is that dependant upon the type of drink? If so, it would be nice to narrow those variables down.

[Wflash]

Like so many other things it's different strokes for different folks.

God knows SWIM's no medical expert, but he believes different people have greatly different levels of an enzyme called alcohol dehydrogenase inside them, which greatly affects how fast their body can detoxify the alcohol they take in.

If one's lucky/unlucky enough to have a lot of it, one can probably put away a lot more booze and keep it together. How that relates to addicition SWIM doesn't know though.

Once one is definitely addicted though, I don't think there's much quantifying of the daily intake going on. You just drink whisky all day until you wake up and it's the next day.

[I love shrooooms]

I would say it takes longer than 14 days, i went to cyprus earlier this year, got absoloutley hammered every day i was there, and didnt notice any withdrawl. keep in mind im skinny and small too

[bewilderment]

"Alcohol, like all addictive drugs, produces physical dependence in the habitual user. A hangover, a combination of headache, nausea, fatigue, and depression, may be a mild type of withdrawal from alcohol. Sudden abstinence by the chronic alcoholic produces a severe withdrawal syndrome—including tremors, vomiting, and convulsions resembling those of epilepsy—that is more likely to cause death than withdrawal from narcotic drugs. The final and most dangerous phase in this withdrawal pattern is delirium tremens, a toxic psychosis characterized by insomnia, hallucinations, seizures, and maniacal behavior."

There are many types of physical withdrawals as described in the above paragraph. But, I don't think that severe physical withdrawals are likely to occur except after very long periods of chronic, acute use.

However many other ailments which may be worse than physical withdrawal may also occur with heavy usage such as:

"The long-term health effects caused by the consumption of large amounts of alcohol (both by alcoholics and non-alcoholics) may include:

* death from many sources, primarily alcohol toxemia
* pancreatitis, or inflammation of the pancreas (both the acute and chronic form)
* heart disease, including dilated cardiomyopathy
* polyneuropathy, or damage to the nerves leading to poor sensation of pain and impaired mobility
* cirrhosis of the liver, a chronic disease characterized by destruction of liver cells and loss of liver function, and its numerous complications, including bleeding from esophageal varices
* depression, insomnia, anxiety, and suicide
* increased incidence of many types of cancer, including breast cancer, head and neck cancer, esophageal cancer and colorectal cancer
* nutritional deficiency of folic acid, thiamine (vitamin B1) and several others
* Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome, a neuropsychiatric disorder caused by thiamine deficiency that results from poor nutrition in some alcoholics
* sexual dysfunction"

This information was taken for this page which seems to contain almost everything one would want to know about alcoholism:
http://www.answers.com/topic/alcoholism

[psyche]

God knows SWIM's no medical expert, but he believes different people have greatly different levels of an enzyme called alcohol dehydrogenase inside them, which greatly affects how fast their body can detoxify the alcohol they take in.

If one's lucky/unlucky enough to have a lot of it, one can probably put away a lot more booze and keep it together. How that relates to addicition SWIM doesn't know though.

Alcohol dehydrogenase metabolises alcohol to acetaldehyde and more effective version of this enzyme means that acetaldehyde levels rise fast which results in nausea and other toxic side-effects of alcohol intake; the enzyme doesn't detoxify alcohol, the opposite takes place. Faster version of this enzyme is common among asian people and hence many of them get quite nauseous after only light drinking.

[JumpinJackFlash]

It's not the physical addiction that matters really, its the psychological one. Waking up and thinking you need a drink in the morning is the root of the problem. I was just wondering whats worse in terms of physical addiction drinking heavily over a short(ish) period of time or drinking less over a long period of time

[drug-bot]

its strange theres no real time table for developing physical dependece to alcohol (all swim could find is it says it takes awhile, which isnt really helpful).
but since alcohol shares a cross tolerance with benzodiazipines and barbituates (both effect your GAABA receptors in your brain, which is their main mode of action, but remember other ones effect different receptors from drug to drug). and both drugs including alcohol produce extremly similar withdrawl symptoms, though the lengths of withdrawls differ from each differ.
so since benzos can produce dependence in about 6 weeks, and barbituates can cause dependence in a few weeks to months, swim would assume alcohol dependence would follow a similar time scale of a couple weeks to a couple months (remember everything is dose dependant).

this is only swims educated hypothesis and it may not be correct and swim is open to corrections, but from the readings swims done hes reasonablly confident.

[Jatelka]

Dickon: In terms of alcohol withdrawal Chlordiazepoxide is the benzodiazepine of choice (in the UK anyway, I have no experience of elsewhere in the world)

It is of course a long acting benzodiazepine, with a half-life of up to 200 hours for active metabolites (although the half-life for chlordiazepoxide itself is somewhere up to 30 hours)

It's generally used at a dose of 20mg qds for the first 48 hours or so, reducing to zero over a course of about 10 days or so