Should SWIM quit stimulants?

[Nicaine]

I know, I know... something only he can really answer. SWIM just finished a 24-hour run/roll with one substance (when he really should have not done it at all & slept, he was already sleep deprived and had just got done sitting on a plane all day)... he slept about 8 hours last night, then today used some of the methylone he ordered instead of waiting a few days like he was gonna... actually, he used a lot more of it than he had intended, and in fact he may not stop until it's gone! (500mg of the stuff).

This is the story of SWIM's life -- he has little to no willpower/control over anything stronger than caffeine, and typically keeps going until (A) the substance runs out and he has no access to more, or (B) he's so exhausted that all it's doing is keeping him awake, if even that. He has an important doctor's appt. tomorrow, and has no clue how he's gonna get there if sleep deprivation and/or physical exhaustion are factors.

Should SWIM quit stimulants? He's always managed to have a worthwhile life without drugs (i.e. between binges), albeit with some pretty serious social and financial issues, as well as MUCH less excitement and a tendency to become morbidly unmotivated and stuck in a 'comfort zone' to the point of psychological catatonia.

SWIM's afraid he may kill himself, or at least damage his health... money's really not an issue, although he *says* he'd rather spend it on stuff that lasts longer. And he would, actually. Except he usually doesn't.

SWIM thinks he should quit, but is definitely ambivalent and really doesn't plan to... so maybe this thread is in the right place, as the core of "addiction" is ambivalence. Comments, questions, suggestions or whatever are all more than welcome.

[Forthesevenlakes]

If SWIY wants to quit, but can't, thats one sign of dependence. Straight from the DSM-IV, but its rather true. SWIY is not the only one who thinks about an enjoyable, drug free life but then steps back from the brink, either out of fear that life will be boring/unenjoyable without drugs or rationalizing that a shorter life with drugs is more worth living than a longer life without them. Thats a question only swiy can answer, for sure.

BUT if SWIY wants SWIM's opinion, here it goes. Dont take anything personal, cuz i'm talking about SWIY here, not the person who posted this...

SWIY has had a good run with the stims for a while. SWIM has read many of SWIY's posts and respects SWIY's knowledge if not outright dedication to many of these substances. However, these substances are not without their peril and danger. At times SWIM is concerned for SWIY, as silly as that may sound. Daily use, or at least frequent use of the cola, propylhexedrine, methylone, and other such substances can't continue forever. The toll on the brain and organs (particularly the heart and liver) would be too great. SWIY may just have an addictive personality where he should stay away from any substance he has easy, constant access to, but the fact that SWIY has quit cigarettes says alot. Many people say smokes are the hardest to quit, after all. Perhaps an extended break is in order, at the very least. Try to go a month without stimulants. If SWIY can't make it this long, then perhaps he should quit altogether. Get rid of his connections, take a trip to another area to clear his head, etc. If SWIY can go that month, perhaps he can continue to use but to set careful limits ahead of time. Perhaps no more than one use a month for a while, while his body recovers.

All that said, SWIM knows its hard to stop. Even if stimulants may not be physically addicting like the things many lab rats SWIM knows are using frequently, their effects are so desirable that its hard to stop. Keep that in mind and make sure to reward SWIYself frequently for every day of sobriety, should he quit. That could really help.

SWIM would type more but he's wearing out his rodent-paws just writing this. Please keep the forum posted on what SWIY decides to do, and take care of SWIYself, man.

[Nicaine]

Thanks for the suggestion... SWIM will try & quit for at least a week -- he's getting a bit too concerned about his heart at this point, particularly being just north of 40 years old.

Edit -- that is to say, if he remains concerned about his heart long enough (which is unknown). Fortunately/unfortunately for him, he seems to have quite a strong physical constitution. Plus he's always been a binge user, sometimes dropping all substances for up to a year before returning. That's definitely helped health-wise.

SWIM will continue to consider this issue seriously, and appreciates anyone's comments.

[enquirewithin]

I know, I know... something only he can really answer. SWIM just finished a 24-hour run/roll with one substance (when he really should have not done it at all & slept, he was already sleep deprived and had just got done sitting on a plane all day)... he slept about 8 hours last night, then today used some of the methylone he ordered instead of waiting a few days like he was gonna... actually, he used a lot more of it than he had intended, and in fact he may not stop until it's gone! (500mg of the stuff).

M1 doesn't do much the second day! As an RC, no-one knows about it's long-term effects, but with better-known stimulants like cocaine or amphetamines, most of the damge they cause is psychological than physical. Stimulants make you worry a lot.

[Forthesevenlakes]

A week would be a great start and would certainly help SWIY's body. SWIM's concern about only going for a week, and why he reccomended a month is that psychologically addicting substances, especially stimulants, can induce a sense of depression and boredom when one is kicking them, as SWIY may well know. So SWIY does not want to fall into the trap of, "SWIM is really bored, life sucks without drugs, so he may as well start doing them again." A month should give the brain time to return to its old levels of dopamine and serotonin, and thus alleviate any short term depression from giving up the stims. It would let SWIY see how a drug free lifestyle could treat him at this point in his life too. SWIM knows SWIY can do it, especially if he's quit all things for a year, and has kicked smoking. Maybe keep a diary of the changes and feelings SWIY has each day as he quits. It would certainly help SWIY chart the day to day improvement or change if he feels any, and could serve as an inspiration to continue abstaining from stimulants for a while if he so chooses. Good luck!

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by enquirewithin

M1 doesn't do much the second day! As an RC, no-one knows about it's long-term effects, but with better-known stimulants like cocaine or amphetamines, most of the damge they cause is psychological than physical. Stimulants make you worry a lot.

The substance SWIM was referring to wasn't M1. Anyway, you're right about stimulants making people worry. In SWIM's case, they make him talk a lot as well (on the Net, that translates to 'verbal diarrhea' ). As far as physical damage, stimulants seem to vary. For example, coke is widely known to cause heart problems (particularly if smoked/injected). Of course, doctors always see the worst cases and then tend to extrapolate it to everyone, as if the substance itself were the sole culprit... so it's hard to say for sure how bad coke is for the heart.

[Forthesevenlakes]

Originally Posted by Nicaine

(on the Net, that translates to 'verbal diarrhea' ).

as a complete aside, theres actually a word for that! "Logorrhea" if I'm not mistaken. and SWIM knows all too well that drugs plus drugs-forum can often lead to such things...

[SPWIM]

If SWIY has such an addictive personality and also the desire to quit things, then why start in the first place?

[Forthesevenlakes]

Originally Posted by SPWIM

If SWIY has such an addictive personality and also the desire to quit things, then why start in the first place?

Most people don't know they have an addictive personality until they have tried something. Also some people may have an addictive personality only in relation to one thing (a type of drug, gambling, other risky behaviors) but be able to control others. Or patterns can develop where a substance is used non-addictively for months or years, and due to changes in the individual or their environment, they later become addicted to it.

[SPWIM]

Originally Posted by Forthesevenlakes

Most people don't know they have an addictive personality until they have tried something. Also some people may have an addictive personality only in relation to one thing (a type of drug, gambling, other risky behaviors) but be able to control others. Or patterns can develop where a substance is used non-addictively for months or years, and due to changes in the individual or their environment, they later become addicted to it.

I wasn't trying to be helpful, I was being inquisitive.

SWIM says that his WHOLE LIFE he has been a sucker for ANYTHING stronger than caffeine. Meaning that at some point, he was a sucker for only 1 stimulant stronger than caffeine but subsequently had gone onto other stimulants.

I was just wondering what train of thought led SWIM to other stimulants, knowing his affliction.

I should've known that posting anything on this board would lead to more bad rep. Ho hum.

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by SPWIM

I was just wondering what train of thought led SWIM to other stimulants, knowing his affliction.

Probably the same train of thought that has a lot of people getting way too drunk/wasted on the weekends, swearing off alcohol FOREVER and then doing it all over again the following Friday night. It's no good for SWIM (maybe even dangerous), but he really likes doing it anyway.

[SPWIM]

Do you find it's just as easy to wander onto another stimulant as it is to reuse the same one?

[Nicaine]

Depends on the stimulant, but most are easy to wander onto & enjoy; however, SWIM was into only coke for many years (binge use for a few months, followed by months or years until the next run). That appears to be changing recently. There are currently two *legal* stimulants that do it for him well enough to ditch the coke, altho neither of them are exactly cheap. And SWIM is over-using them to the point of worrying about his health. If he can't rest his heart for at least a week, he's gonna get serious about the idea of quitting.

[SPWIM]

Well if SWIY has a physical dependance then SWIM wouldn't recommend trying to go it cold turkey, as stopping using a substance immediately is dangerous as this puts a lot of pressure on the body to immediately reverse any toll it has taken. If SWIM was in the same situation as SWIY, i.e. suffering from well-founded drug-related anxiety, then SWIM would try to reduce the usage over a period of time.

[Forthesevenlakes]

There are some studies supporting what SWIY says, SPWIM. Some evidence that cold turkey cessation of cocaine in people of ailing health or advanced age can lead to cardiac arrest. I believe Jatelka made a post about that once. Maybe a doctor consultation would help to know if the taper or the cold turkey is better.

However, since there isnt a classic withdrawal phase like with benzos, alcohol, or opiates, stimulants can be stopped cold turkey by most people. But does SWINicaine want to quit forever? Or just give it a break?

[Nicaine]

SWIM is definitely taking some recovery/rebound time today, & has only been thinking about stimulants occasionally. His common sense is overcoming the desire to use, as he's still pretty burned out from his prolonged high-dose methylone adventure the other day. Catching up on sleep for at least a few more nights would be a good idea.

P.S. SWIM is not a regular/heavy enough user of anything to consider cutting back gradually... just not necessary.

And to answer the final question, he doesn't know whether he wants to quit forever or just give it a break. Actually, he'd like to just use heavily/daily for all eternity starting yesterday, but knows he can't get away with it.

[Nicaine]

Gaaah... SWIM keeps breaking his own promises, but his tolerance to propylhexedrine is so high now he hardly feels anything. This should do the trick for at least a week-long break... it's pointless to use a substance that has no effect.

[Nagognog2]

SWIM might get some Valerian - should the agitation become a problem. And SWIM would prefer not to swap out ups for benzos.

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by Nagognog2

SWIM might get some Valerian - should the agitation become a problem. And SWIM would prefer not to swap out ups for benzos.

Thanks... it may not be too bad, this isn't amphetamine after all. SWIM sort of feels like this is the stimulant version of kratom vs. opiates. Doubtful there will be any serious depression involved, probably just boredom and some occasional cravings. The slow(er) life seems not much fun anymore and SWIM will miss the intense focus & concentration possible on ups... but it isn't forever.

[enquirewithin]

..but his tolerance to propylhexedrine is so high now he hardly feels anything.

Velerian is a great, if not very powerful. Out of curiuosity, propylhexedrine do to you? It's supposed to have a low abuse potential.

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by enquirewithin

Velerian is a great, if not very powerful. Out of curiuosity, propylhexedrine do to you? It's supposed to have a low abuse potential.

It produces stimulation, mild-to-moderate euphoria, increased energy/focus and heightened sex drive... sort of a 'meth lite' which doesn't scale nearly as well with dosage but certainly offers many of the same effects. Who says it's supposed to have low abuse potential, and in what context? It's been a Schedule V controlled substance in the USA, when not sealed inside a Benzedrex inhaler. If abuse potential is so low, why has it been scheduled before?

Anyway... SWIM managed to get off the recent stimulant run, e.g. 'slow' activities like reading books & listening to music are starting to look interesting again (which is definitely a good thing). He got some kratom in the mail today, which certainly helps (classic euphoric/cheery substance without any of the physically damaging effects from stimulants). He's also got a gram of methylone heading his way pretty soon (muhahahahaha). Not enough to go crazy with, of course... methylone's too expensive for anyone except a cokehead to do regularly, and likely has a much steeper tolerance curve than cocaine.

SWIM's also showing signs of potential dependency on Ambien, but none of this crap is serious as long as he just keeps the stimulant use way down (once a week, twice at most)... everything will work out OK if he does that. Too much stim use kicks his ass sideways... he can handle everything else, always has.

[izzy31]

I honestly believe that if you feel you actually function better with it than without it, there's a strong possibilty you wont feel completely functionable like you did before you started. If that happens, it means the drug changed your brain chemistry;messed with your brain to the point that it actually changes the way it acts.

[Forthesevenlakes]

^^keep in mind that happens with any drug addiction, and its almost always a reversible process with prolonged abstinence.

[Nicaine]

You guys are both right. BTW none of this is anything new to SWIM, he's been "addicted" to quite a number of things before... his pattern has always been heavy binge use for anywhere from a couple months to a year, oftentimes followed by complete abstinence from anything stronger than caffeine for years after that. His pattern has changed a bit lately tho, seemingly due to knowledge/availability of legal highs.

[Hlucn8]

I know I don't know swiy; I've never posted a reply to one of swiyr threads or been involved in a discussion with swiy, but swim has lost alot of friends to amp-stims. Reading this thread one thing kep returning to swims mind; a verse out of an old stepphenwolf song, "I've smoked alot of grass, oh lord I've popped alot of pills; But I've never touched nothin that my spirit could kill... You know I've seen alot of people walkin round with tombstones in there eyes..."
Amps are great if one has to drive from georgia to ontario in one night, and mabey ocasionaly for recreation, but as a lifestyle it absolutely devistates people. Swim visit two graves every memorial day that can atest to that.
Obviously a hypocrite i would be if i said "No, Never for rec. purposes", but a more than occasional use of anything becomes a crutch. If one takes up a crutch, just make sure one can bare the sore it leaves under ones arm. (not to mention thew money!)

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