Peruvian torch, ssri's, mao inhibitors?

[wellhelm]

If it's in a thread just post it for swim please. Swim used the engine and did not find anything.
Will ssri's or mao inhibitors(depakote) prevent a peruvain torch trip, be dangerous, or lessen it? Should swim stop taking 1 or both? Swim is more than stable so stoping medication for a little while should not be a problem.

[radiometer]

This is not my specialty, but it's important for someone to post on this question before SWIM potentially hurts SWIYself. Here is some information in the form of a couple quotes from another board. Most of this information comes from fast&bulbous who is also a D-F member.

Mescaline + competetive MAOI (eg harmaline) - proceed with lots of caution

san pedro extract + competetive MAOI - Really pushing your luck

either + non-competetive MAOI - see you in hospital (or morgue).

Super Brew - Ayuhasca + Cacti extract... is this safe?

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Probably not. San Pedro contains tyramine related phenethylamines that act as pressor agents (increase blood pressure). These are normally inactivated by gut MAO - inhibit it with harmala alkaloids & there's a good chance of your blood pressure noticably going up.

From what I've read, you can combine competetive MAOIs like harmala alkaloids with smaller doses of mescaline, but San Pedro doesn't just contain mescaline...

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I didnt mean specifically San pedro. I was actually planing on using dried peruvians incense (which i hope contains the alkoloids) .

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Still contains the tyramine related alkaloids due to them being part of the biosynthetic pathway to mescaline for all of the Trichocereus species

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Actually, I know someone that took a full dose of san pedro with an unknown amount of plant matter containing harmala alkaloids.

He said he vomited profusely, and it felt like someone was compressing his head in a vise. I can't remember exactly how he described it.. something about how it felt like there was so much pressure in his head it felt like his eyeballs were goign to rupture, or his head was going to crack open and that a migraine was a fart in the wind by comparison.

not a great idea.

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^ A pretty good description of what sounds like the beginning of a hypertensive crisis

Reputation Comments on this post:

lots of info i did not know

[wellhelm]

Well, swim will be stoping his medication for even longer then planed. Thank you for posting. Glad SWIM had the sense to fucking ask!

[wellhelm]

Swim is still courious as to what the difference is between competetive MAOI and non-competetive MAOI, and which one is depakote? Though swim has already stoped taking it in prep for his very much anticipated P. Torch ride this weekend.

[Micklemouse]

Originally Posted by wellhelm

Swim is still courious as to what the difference is between competetive MAOI and non-competetive MAOI, and which one is depakote?

It's neither. Depakote (Semi-Sodium Valproate, Valproic Acid) is one of the anti-epilepsy drugs that have recently found a place in psychiatry as mood stabilisers for people experiencing manic symptoms or with a diagnosis of personality disorder.

Do not discontinue this medication abruptly if SWiYou've been taking it for mania or related unless under strict clinical supervision or experiencing liver problems, & especially not if taking for epilepsy. Doing so may cause a relapse in mania, rebound seizures, all sorts of mayhem... It doesn't matter how stable SWiY is at the moment - ime this can change very rapidly if meds are stopped abruptly. Discontinuing medication is one of the major causes of psychiatric hospital admissions, or seizures in otherwise well-controlled epilepsy, never mind discontinuing meds then tripping

Where did SWiY get the idea that this med was a MAOI? Apart from advising a healthy diet to avoid weight gain, there are no dietary requirements to taking Depakote. A MAOI antidepressant requires a strict diet to ensure the continued health of the patient.

I would also seriously question the wisdom of someone with either epilepsy or a diagnosis of a manic condition taking a mescaline based substance or any other phenethylamine or hallucinogen. People do - some of them have a high level of self- & substance awareness & well controlled symptoms, some are just dumb, ill advised, ignorant of the risks or on a mission, some are lucky & get away with it, some are unlucky & end up in hospital.

In answer to the other query, competitive MAOI is another name for a reversible MAOI, non-competitive for irreversible MAOI's.

Monoamine oxidase inhibitor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Depakote Online, Description, Chemistry, Ingredients, Blackbox ...

Reputation Comments on this post:

Helped me understand my own med.

[wellhelm]

Swim did some serious digging and you are correct. Swim has been on it a short while but still can't believe swim did not know his own meds. Swim just got confused somewhere. Thank you, a lot, for your post and concern. Swim love's his salvia and lsd and has and will be more than fine with his P. torch. Swim will be doing a low dose as to become aquainted with it. Swims meds have actually helped swim quit heroin and crack. Since then he has become interested in only hallucinogen's for purpose's of insight and inner growth. But be happy to note he has continued his medication and will update on his trip this weekend.

[Micklemouse]

Heh-heh! Glad to hear it mate, & that caution is being employed, especially as SSRI's are involved (I'm guessing SWiW isn't bipolar if these are prescribed, or if he is they are at a very low dose). SSRI's can cause a lessening of effects in many hallucinogens (which generally act on Serotonin receptors), whilst at the same time heightening the risk of Serotonin Syndrome. Again, not everyone experiences this lessening of effect, but it is common. I cannot stress enough the dangers in upping the dose to achieve an effect however. Serotonin Syndrome is set to become a major concern in the years to come, & anyone taking Serotonergic substances, be it SSRI's & other antidepressants, some antipsychotics & anti-manics, MDMA, LSD, tramodol, dxm, amfetamines, cocaine, even codeine, should be reading up on it.

The particular type of SSRI may have an impact on the safety of this combination - dependant on action on CYPD chromosones & serotonin receptors.

Play safe, & keep us updated.

[wellhelm]

Swim took 28 grams of Peruvian Torch and had no effects other than some what larger pupils and a slight body high. This was a potent cactus as swims friends took only 15 grams and triped balls. Swim can only assume that his medications rendered the tryptamines completly ineffective. Next time swim was thinking of trying melatonin and (if he can get some) syrian rue to increase the effects, as to avoid stoping medication. Swim knows stoping medication is not the best of ideas but if this does not work he does not see any other way. Any and all advice would help. Thank you.

[radiometer]

Originally Posted by wellhelm

Next time swim was thinking of trying...syrian rue to increase the effects

You are aware that Syrian Rue is an MAO inhibitor?

Syrian Rue = Harmala alkaloids

Please re-read my first post to you in this thread. Here's a sample:

Actually, I know someone that took a full dose of san pedro with an unknown amount of plant matter containing harmala alkaloids.

He said he vomited profusely, and it felt like someone was compressing his head in a vise. I can't remember exactly how he described it.. something about how it felt like there was so much pressure in his head it felt like his eyeballs were goign to rupture, or his head was going to crack open and that a migraine was a fart in the wind by comparison.

^ A pretty good description of what sounds like the beginning of a hypertensive crisis

[wellhelm]

"If SWIY doesn't have enough for a high does tryp There are a few methods of potentiating the experiance.

1) Syrian Rue (1-5g) ; Increases visuals, intensity, euphoria, and intensity
2) Melatonin (10-20mg for 7 days OR 25mg the night before but this does
not work as well); increases euphoria most of all but does increase intensity of visuals, not duration in SWIM's experiance."

No swim did not, but he found that in another thread and assumed it was not or why would someone post it in a thread about P. Torch. As you can see swim is new to cactus and this is why he posts his questions and this is what forums are for. What about melatonin?

[Micklemouse]

Originally Posted by wellhelm

"If SWIY doesn't have enough for a high does tryp There are a few methods of potentiating the experiance.

1) Syrian Rue (1-5g) ; Increases visuals, intensity, euphoria, and intensity
2) Melatonin (10-20mg for 7 days OR 25mg the night before but this does
not work as well); increases euphoria most of all but does increase intensity of visuals, not duration in SWIM's experiance."

No swim did not, but he found that in another thread and assumed it was not or why would someone post it in a thread about P. Torch. As you can see swim is new to cactus and this is why he posts his questions and this is what forums are for. What about melatonin?

At 28 g SWiW would appear to have more than enough for a trip, & yet no effect. A number of options here - 1) a natural 'immunity' to P.Torch; 2) a 'learnt' immunity from use of serotonergic agents, including SSRI's, tryptamines & phenethylamines (a Certain Mouse I know is 'immune' to lsd. He can feel the body load, he does not get visuals or other effects apart from revisiting old thought loops which are quickly discarded due to being entirely irrelevant & pointless. He does not use SSRI's, nor has he. He has taken more than his fair share of tryps & phen's, most of which still have the desired glorious effect on his neuro physiology. But I digress...); 3) a temporary 'immunity' due to use of SSRI's which will hopefully but not necessarily wear off with time when the time comes to withdraw from the SSRI's. I underline the 'when' because I cannot stress enough the importance of a structured withdrawal from these meds.

Another thing I cannot stress enough is the importance of not introducing a MAOI even as a one off when on a course of SSRI's. It's dangerous enough taking a serotonin booster such as mescaline when serotonin levels are already high, but to then inhibit the bodies mechanism for cleaning up the mess is - well, let's just say it is highly, highly inadvisable, & can lead as previously stated to Serotonin Syndrome, a fantastic little reaction that to the onlooker, & possibly even the experiencer may be indistinguishable from a bad trip. That is until the old left ankle starts twitching uncontrollably, the poor ticker gives out entirely. Not something either SWiW or anyone around him at the time wants to deal with. A flushing period of anywhere from 1 - 5 weeks, depending on the halflife of the med involved, is recommended after finally finishing SSRI treatment before introducing a MAOI, preferably longer.

Lecture over, on to answering the question. I can't find much other than the already quoted report on the effects of melatonin on mescaline. No adverse reactions with current meds either - quite the reverse in fact. There appears to be some evidence to say that some ssri's deplete melatonin, so supplementing will do no harm.

Now, a couple of questions of my own... Has SWiW had success with other hallucinogens whilst on SSRI's? If so has he noticed any lessening of desired effects, or any strengthening of 'adverse events' - increased confusion/delirium, poor coordination, memory loss, poor temperature control, tachycardia, agitation or restlessness, tremor?

[wellhelm]

Swim has done 2-c-b and 2-c-c with normal, if not great effects. He has also broken through with salvia 15X on multiple occasions. Nothing at all out of the ordinary and all were wonderfull experience's.
Swim ment nothing at all out of the ordinary as far as heartbeat, temperature, pulse, and agitation. Of course salvia was a tiny bit out of the ordinary.

[wellhelm]

The above are what swim has done since being medicated. All were what you would expect from a good trip. Prior to this swim has done LSD, shrooms, mdma, and probably other things that swims poor memory can not recall. Swim has only had one bad experience which was on LSD roughly 10 years ago. Since then, including when tripping while on medication, all trips have been great experience's. Just thought swim might make that clear as his last post was a little vauge.

[wellhelm]

Swim does not want to give up on cactus but does not know what to do. Maybe swim could gradually lower his meds(not stop them) then try some melatonin and give her another whirl. What do swiy's think? Any other suggestions besides giving up?

[radiometer]

Lots of people recommend all sorts of idiotic things on the internet. I know of a whole forum which is convinced that taking mushrooms with lemon juice makes the mushrooms 5 times stronger. (/rolls eyes)

This is why it's important to do lots of research before accepting that anything you read is true, and this applies to my advice in this thread as much as to anything else you read.

I've never heard any convincing evidence of melatonin potentiating mescaline, I seriously doubt it works. This thread may prove interesting for you:

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21871

Originally Posted by nanobrain

melatonin potentiation is placebo, its antioxidant capacity has been far surpassed by now.

for anyone thinking of messing with MAOIs for potentiation, i beg you with utmost urgency not to succumb to such experimentation, unless you really yearn to become a datapoint.

take this advice as you would take the advice of someone who's had the dubious fortune of being struck by lightning several times telling you to avoid carrying tall metal wire structures in an open field during a lightningstorm, even though you really like sparkles.

What is the sodium Valproate prescribed for? As micklemouse pointed out earlier, people with medical conditions which require Sodium Valproate treatment would be best off keeping away from psychedelics entirely. Is a psychedelic trip worth the risk of making your condition worse?

[wellhelm]

Any swims that do any thing run a risk when using drugs. Swim appreciates the concern, but respectivly, swiy's do not know swims condition. While this is not the place swim would like to explain his current condition he is more than stable, has extensive use of hallucinogens, and is at home when on them. Swim usually gains insight into his "condition" making it a worth while/ needfull journey.

[radiometer]

^ Yeah, I wasn't really trying to get personal, but I think it's an issue that one should very carefully consider, which is why I emphasized it.

[UberDouche]

SWIM is taking 2000mg 2-propyl valeric acid (Valproic acid) and 300mg buproprion each day. SWIM has not taken any PEAs, but SWIM has used 5-MeO DMT whilst on these meds with no real discernible difference in effect as compared to pre-med condition.

Prior to this, SWIM asked SWIM's MD about the adviseability of such drug use. The obvious answer the MD gave was, "It isn't recommended, there is not enough information on these compounds to give specific advice with regards to any adverse effects of these combinations.

"If you must do this, my advice is to NOT use anything that could be considered a stimulant as this will counteract the mood-stabilising effect of the Depakote, and the buproprion lowers your seizure threshold to a level where the addition of another stimulant compound may cause seizure."

SWIM knows this is kind of off topic, but SWIM wanted to encourage SWIYs to consult with SWIY's prescribing physician (or any physician if SWIY isn't comfortable with the prescribing MD) before taking any drug that the physician isn't aware of. Doctors are usually going to have a lot more information regarding these matters (obviously).