MDMA - effective protection products

[enquirewithin]

SWIM does take vitamin supplements-- C, B-12 and multi-vitamins. He also takes 5 HTTP afterwards.

He has no great confidence in the effectiveness of any of this, but it might help!

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

The effect depends on the dosage. 1-2grams showes little or no effect on treating e.g. the flu, but when mega dosing it has definatly an effect.

quotations from wikipedia

"At least 29 controlled clinical trials (many double-blind and placebo-controlled) involving a total of over 11,000 participants have been conducted. These trials were reviewed in the 1990s [5][6] and again recently.[16] The trials show that vitamin C reduces the duration and severity of colds but not the frequency. The data indicate that there is a normal dose-response relationship. Vitamin C is more effective the higher the dose."

the lab-rapport which made rats non-tolerant to MDMA, was done with high doses, but they are attainible.

[daeron]

^ dear friend that was quite retarded, what you had was a vit C OD, which sympthoms include diarrhea you wont die from it but it is sure as hell dumb.you cant extrapolate the mice doses to human ones,damnit! eat lots of yoghurt esp those with bifidus bacteria help yer flushed bowels.

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

SWIM don't care about diarrhea, he knew this would eventually happen when eating vit-c. He was testing his limits of comfort which vary much from person to person. SWIM is going to see if all negative side effects can be eliminated,

"you cant extrapolate the mice doses to human ones,damnit!"

they're human doses to (see vit c guidelines)

of course, SWIM knows mice and humans are different, but it's however interesting to see if a high (but without discomfort) dose of Vit-C would eliminate the day after effect. And/or reduce tolerance.

with this evidence concerning mice, SWIM thinks it plausible. And if he could do it without discomfort, then where's the hatch ..

[radagast]

swim takes 5htp all the time now whether pre or post loading or not as they seem to help him get better sleep i.e he now dreams again. And you never know when your going to be spontaneously taking a pill.

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

normal vit-c tablets will be released and absorbed quickly. and the half life is really short : 20min/30min.. so if using them to prevent some MDMA toxicity they will only do their job for 20-30minutes, and then to keep the effects up, swiy will have to refuel.


In treating the flu, the antioxidant effect of vitamin-c is important:
and as we can see here it don't do much of that with doses under 2grams:

The controlled trials and clinical experience prove that vitamin C in doses ranging from 0.1 to 2.0 g/day have a relatively small effect... ...The data indicate that there is a normal dose-response relationship. Vitamin C is more effective the higher the dose...



swim has bought some sustained release ones (4hours gradual release), and he can take 5grams twice, without any problems.

[Nagognog2]

1. You can buy slow-release Vitamin C tabs.

2. They won't do jack-shit for the flu or a rhinovirus.

3. They will prevent Scurvy, matey.

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

Originally Posted by Nagognog2

1. You can buy slow-release Vitamin C tabs.

2. They won't do jack-shit for the flu or a rhinovirus.

3. They will prevent Scurvy, matey.

1. yes that's what the gradual release tablets SWIM taked about is...

2. CONCLUTIONS: "The trials in which vitamin C was introduced at the onset of colds as therapy did not show any benefit in doses up to 4 grams daily, but one large trial reported equivocal benefit from an 8 gram therapeutic dose at onset of symptoms."

(from the pub.med article about how low doses were proved ineffective.)

taking 200mg's of vitamin-c to prevent the flu - is like taking a sip of beer expecting to get drunk..

3. YES! the doses people take in normal dietary supplements are ment to prevent Scurvy, and that's it..
They are not in high enough doses to act as a antioxidant. By all meens!


In elite bodybuilding it's actually quite normal to IV vitamin-c to (among other desired effects) act as a antioxidant. they often use doses up to 150 grams

[Akewstick]

SWIM would love to hear more of SWIWrtngCocaineTutorial's thoughts about Vitamin C reducing the tolerance to MDMA, and also about how much and how often Vitamin C can be taken. SWIM admires his his dedication to finding out about the antioxidant effects of Vitamin C. Keep up the good work!

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

The highly positive effect the Vitamin-C had on the lab rats where due to it's antioxidant effects ...

Does anyone have knowledge of how effectfull other antioxidants are (in general not especially for MDMA)

Vitamin-C can be a powerful antioxidant if taken in high doses, but it has it's limits.

Recently I stumbled upon some dietary supplements for bodybuilding, which claim to be antioxidants ... But I don't know how much effect they will have.

Over 2/3rd of the bodybuilding products have absolutely no solid evidence for their claims .. And they’re not obliged to have it either because they don't sell it to cure decease

The one I saw's active ingredient is:
Alpha Lipoic Acid


Does anyone have knowledge of this substance, and how powerful it is compared to other antioxidants?

Erowid suggests that the effect of two different working antioxidants will give a higher effect. Like they are more powerful together than one by one because they act in different ways

[radiometer]

alpha-lipoic acid is a highly effective anti-oxidant. Note in my post above that I recommend the 300mg time-release tablets, because ALA is eliminated from the body very quickly.

Reputation Comments on this post:

cheers! very useful info: because ALA is eliminated from the body very quickly.

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

do you know how it compares to other antioxidants?

Or the highest level someone could use without any side effects?

Only place where swim has found some info on it is here.

But it's not good for anything, because it doesn't state the antioxidant effects of the concentrated form.. like it should say vitamin C, instead of oranges, (obviously SWIY can't eat even enough oranges to get to 2000mg of vit-c)


vitamin E:
the normal upper level for tolerance is 1000mg/day taken on a dayly basis. Or 1500IU, as vitamin bottles often are marked...

Vitamin A:
The upper level for vit a is 3000 mg / 10,000 IU per day

The content of a multi vitamin tablet (called vitamin power): Vitamin A (from Beta Carotene and Lemon Grass Oil) 25,000 iu
when they exceed the limit in ONE tablet, I doubt that it has such a negative side effects to go a little over the top

both those vitamins are suggested used by erowid as antioxidants - to help reduce negative effects from MDMA

[radiometer]

^ Thanks for the tip. Magnesium is the mineral which is thought to block the jaw-clenching from MDMA. Calcium may also play a role, from what I've read, and I don't think that zinc has anything to do with it. I should have mentioned that SWIM was using that particular combo tablet simply because they were around.

From what I've read, this has something to do with ion channels, and I lack the expertise to explain the mechanism, though perhaps you or someone else with more knowledge of brain chemistry than I could do so.

[sterling77]

ECGC in green tea is supposed to be another good one. Last time swim rolled he drank green tea and took a green tea and ginseng extract capsule beforehand, along with a multivitamin that has vitamin C, A and E. After he took 5-htp which is supposed to be an antioxidant and taurine, which is also supposed to be an antioxidant. The pills were clean MDMA, and swim had no comedown what so ever (not even the next day). Swim imagines melatonin would be a good choice after you comedown, it helps you get to sleep and it is always states as an "extremely powerful antioxidant".

Reputation Comments on this post:

interesting experience. and tip

[acolon_5]

Whenever SWIM and his SO take MDMA they both double up on their 5-htp the day before, the day of, and they day after (from 100mgs to 200mgs). Vitamins are every day anyway.

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

MEDLINE

A single administration of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, 20 mg/kg, i.p.), induced significant hyperthermia in rats and reduced 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT) content and [3H]paroxetine-labeled 5-HT transporter density in the frontal cortex, striatum and hippocampus by 40-60% 1 week later. MDMA treatment also increased glial fibrillary acidic protein (GFAP) immunoreactivity in the hippocampus. Repeated administration of the metabolic antioxidant alpha-lipoic acid (100 mg/kg, i.p., b.i.d. for 2 consecutive days) 30 min prior to MDMA did not prevent the acute hyperthermia induced by the drug; however, it fully prevented the serotonergic deficits and the changes in the glial response induced by MDMA. These results further support the hypothesis that free radical formation is responsible for MDMA-induced neurotoxicity.

I'm not sure, but I think i.p. (intraperitoneal) administration means that it's injected into the stomach, and therefore would be equal to oral administration. please correct me if I'm wrong.

and b.i.d. means twice daily dosing

And as ALWAYS, they use mega doses of MDMA, to get clear results... And mega dosing of ALA.

But the fact that the negative effects of the enormous dose that 20mg/kg is - can be fully prevented astonishes me..!

This highly indicates the effectiveness of ALA.
If anyone knows the upper limits of comfort (and has tested them out) - please post!

SWIM repeated his Ascorbic acid test and took:
0:00 5 grams Vitamin-C sustained release (4 hours)
+3:00 5 grams Vitamin-C sustained release (4 hours)

This time with a more fluid shitting (10hours after first tablet), but it's OK and no real diarrhea. Not a problem at all. No need to suddenly go to the bathroom


reference

[sterling77]

There seems to be plenty of evidence that ALA is a good choice for protection, though swim has heard that taken beforehand the ALA can weaken the roll (these were subjective reports).

[radiometer]

^ SWIM started taking his anti-oxidants an hour after the MDMA/methylone for that very reason. I'm not convinced that there's any noticable difference, but there's no need for protection at the onset anyways. Also, from what I've read, this effect is due to only one of the isomers of alpha-lipoic acid, and that one can purchase products with only one or the other of the two isomers. However these products are supposed to be very expensive, so I've never bothered looking into it.

I was informed by my neighborhood supplement store clerk that the abbreviation "ALA" is no longer in use, because there is now another alpha-somethingstartingwithttheletterL acid on the market.

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

If any of you come by litterature about ALA and decreasing of high. Please post them.,. Might this be prevented by just snorting the pills?

[radiometer]

I thought the idea here was harm reduction for MDMA? Snorting pills is not harm reduction, it is increasing risk.

[Psychedelic_Fairytale]

SWIM uses L-Tryptophaan to refill his serotonine after taking MDMA

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

MEDLINE

A single administration of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, 20 mg/kg, i.p.), induced significant hyperthermia in rats and reduced 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT) content and [3H]paroxetine-labeled 5-HT transporter density in the frontal cortex, striatum and hippocampus by 40-60% 1 week later. MDMA treatment also increased glial fibrillary acidic protein (GFAP) immunoreactivity in the hippocampus. Repeated administration of the metabolic antioxidant alpha-lipoic acid (100 mg/kg, i.p., b.i.d. for 2 consecutive days) 30 min prior to MDMA did not prevent the acute hyperthermia induced by the drug; however, it fully prevented the serotonergic deficits and the changes in the glial response induced by MDMA. These results further support the hypothesis that free radical formation is responsible for MDMA-induced neurotoxicity.

given that the dose/response ratio on MDMA and ALA is equal. Than dividing both by ten would give the same results.

20mg/kg MDMA -> 2mg/kg MDMA, which is a quite normal dose

100mg/kg with ALA, -> 10mg/kg

10mg/kg with ALA for a 80 kg person is 800mg, which is 2 pills (with 400mg) which is well within the "safe zone":

It might be enough to fully prevent with 800mg, but SWIM'd rather take as much as SWIM could without discomfort, see below

Dosage

The common dosage of alpha-lipoic acid for complications of diabetes is 100 to 200 mg three times daily. In studies that found benefit of supplementing with alpha-lipoic acid, several weeks of treatment were often necessary for effects to develop. However, some studies have indicated as much as 600-1,800 mg per day of alpha-lipoic acid for optimal benefit in people with specific health concerns such as diabetes, liver cirrhosis and atherosclerosis.

If you are healthy and want to promote optimal health, a dose of 30 - 300 mg per day may be sufficient.

Lipoic acid appears to have no significant side effects at dosages up to 1,800 mg

the site which is refered to is commerical so I can't show references...

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

Aspirin is also suggested:

"One novel and unlikely-sounding proposal to minimise MDMA-induced neurotoxicity is pretreatment with aspirin. Aspirin inhibits the enzyme prostaglandin H synthase (PHS). PHS catalyses the transformation of amphetamines into toxic free radical products. Therefore taking aspirin before MDMA use may also indirectly block the conversion of amphetamines into reactive oxygen species responsible for long-term neurotoxicity. As of 2006, no controlled trials of aspirin have yet been conducted with MDMA-using humans. But if aspirin pretreatment does prove an effective harm-reduction strategy, then this is potentially a godsend - not least because other candidate neuroprotectants (SSRIs, selegiline, etc) carry hazards of their own in conjunction with E-use. Aspirin itself cannot strictly be described as risk-free; but the risk/benefit ratio of its use is both favourable and well-known. "


reference: trypamind

[darawk]

SWIM took an aspirin, 300mg 5-htp and 600mg ALA before and after his last roll. That was SWIM's first time rolling, and he experienced no hangover whatsoever. Next time he rolls though, I think he's going to add a prozac on the comedown.

EDIT: Also, for the people talking about taking calcium supplements...that may be a good idea, but it's important to keep in mind that calcium will often block the absorption of other vitamins it's taken with. So, if you're going to take a lot of calcium try to take it at a different time from your other stuff.

Reputation Comments on this post:

"no hangover whatsoever" wow. that's promising..!

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

I know there's someone with english as 1st language here.. Please anwer post 45. I can't figure it out.

this is from "Ecstacy the complete guide"

"...Antioxidant supplements also may prove useful. Aguirre and colleagues (1999) reported that twice daily administration of high dose ALA for two days completely blocked the neurotoxicity of a subsequent single dose of MDMA in rats..."