MDMA - effective protection products

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

EDIT: protection produts is e.g. vitamines, other antioxidants, mangesium, 5htp, SSRI/Prozac whatever SWIY uses to protect agains neurotoxisity, hangover and other bad effects from MDMA

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There is some controversy on weather they help or not..

what does SWIY use, what dose, for how long ..
And does SWIY fell that it helps?

Please post references to statements if SWIY has it.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Good poll, good info.
	Good poll/thread

[Forthesevenlakes]

nope! swim doesnt even know what they are =]

his idea of protection is a bunch of vitamins before and after. maybe some benzos or opiates the next day.

[Alfa]

A good meal and rest before and anti-oxidants thereafter. 5-HTP in the week after the use.

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

SWIM read some very interesting stuff about protection products on erowid.
A scientist had given rats a high dose MDMA, and high dose MDMA+vit c
and concluded that the vit c, reduced damage, and toleance significantly.

But because in order to get clear results he had used large, large doses,

He used 10mg/kg MDMA (ca 5times normal dose), and 100mg/kg of vit C, which would be equvivilant to a human dose of ca 5-10g vit c, but because it's injected it's more like 50-100g vit-c (normal oral dose is 1-2g)

so, because of the high doses(and that it's rats) it can't be directly transfered, but it is an interesting indication



GRAPH showing how the rats respond to MDMA, after given a previous dose of MDMA+saline compared to MDMA+vit C
as we can see, the rats given vit c, showed no tolerance, despite they've gotten the same about of MDMA in a previous dose

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma...article3.shtml if swiy is intersted in reading the full text

[Darksanity]

Originally Posted by WrtngCocaineTutorial

SWIM read some very interesting stuff about protection products on erowid.
A scientist had given rats a high dose MDMA, and high dose MDMA+vit c
and concluded that the vit c, reduced damage, and toleance significantly.

Wouldn't the acidity from vitamin C such as from ascorbic acid reduce MDMA absorption much like it does with amphetamines? In this case, would it be better to take Ester-C non-acidic calcium ascorbate vitamin C? Would it be safe to pre-load with 5-HTP prior to a mushrooms + ecstasy combination?

[Bajeda]

Swim likes to take prozac towards the end of coming down. He feel it helps relax him further and lets him get a good night's sleep and wake up feeling fine in the morning.

His friends have used a product sold with piperazines that has 5-HTP and vitimins and such in it but say it gave them a headache. Swim hasn't tried these yet so he can't comment on them.

[dnb warrior]

SWIM takes 1 multivitamin+mineral every day and when he takes xtc he usually takes 5-htp but he aint sure if it does anything or not.

[radiometer]

SWIM used to go a bit overboard with pre/post-loading for MDMA, but over the years he's worked it down to this (IMO) very practical regimen:


1) Calcium/Magnesium/Zinc, 100% USRDA each (SWIMs got tablets with all three included), one hour beforehand - this is a great help towards reducing jaw clenching/tension.

2) Antioxidants: 300mg time-release ALA and one "Airborne", about an hour after ingestion of MDMA. There has been some suggestion that anti-oxidants, and ALA in particular, can interfere with the absorbtion of MDMA, which is why SWIM waits until after the MDMA - something about oxidation. If one doesn't buy into this, they might as well take this portion at the same time as #1.

3) Same as #2, taken about 4-5 hours after ingestion. Set a timer so SWIY remembers - this one is the most important!

4) 100mg 5-HTP, taken at same time as #3 or before sleeping.

5) 3mg sublingual melatonin, before sleeping.

SWIM continues to take 100mg 5-HTP the next few mornings.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Thanks for sharing the regime.

[ThirdEyeFloond]

Originally Posted by radiometer

1) Calcium/Magnesium/Zinc, 100% USRDA each (SWIMs got tablets with all three included), one hour beforehand - this is a great help towards reducing jaw clenching/tension.

SWIM has never heard of this before but is sure alot of FOSWIM would appreciate reduced jaw tension when they roll. Can you or someone else explain to me how and why those vitamins effect that rather annoying property of MDMA?

[ThirdEyeFloond]

SWIM eats a good meal beforehand, and takes vitamin C and a multivitamin pill plus 100mg 5-HTP about an hour before dosing the MDMA. 4 hours after dosing SWIM takes 100-200mg 5-HTP, as he was once told that if the serotonin deposits are emptied and the dopamine is allowed access to the serotonin receptors the neuro-damage is allready done and it doesn't help to wait 'till the day after with 'refilling' (apart from avoiding eventual depression).

[radiometer]

Originally Posted by ThirdEyeFloond

SWIM has never heard of this before but is sure alot of FOSWIM would appreciate reduced jaw tension when they roll. Can you or someone else explain to me how and why those vitamins effect that rather annoying property of MDMA?

Magnesium and calcium work in the brain in ways which are a bit beyond my ability to explain them. Here's a page explaining how magnesium works to some extent:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0826071458.htm

That link is related to how magnesium affects blood pressure, which I do not know whether that has anythnig to do with why it reduces bruxism. These minerals affect the way that the brain moves chemicals around, through a mechanism called "ion channels." Sorry I can't give you a more thorough explanation. Perhaps one of our members with a better understanding of brain chemistry than I could chime in here...


One thing I will say is that the effectiveness for reducing bruxism is somewhat unpredictable. Sometimes magnesium blocks close to 100% of his jaw problems, but sometimes it only helps a little bit. It's not a miracle cure but SWIM has found it to be worth the effort.

[zera]

Originally Posted by radiometer

1) Calcium/Magnesium/Zinc, 100% USRDA each (SWIMs got tablets with all three included), one hour beforehand - this is a great help towards reducing jaw clenching/tension.

Because all three of these are cations and because calcium is the strongest and most abudant for a single dose, taking zinc and magnesium with calcium usually blocks the absorption of calcium. If one plans on supplementing with zinc and magnesium I suggest that you space out ingesting them at least one hour away from any calcium intake.

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

Originally Posted by radiometer

300mg time-release ALA and one "Airborne", about an hour after ingestion of MDMA. There has been some suggestion that anti-oxidants, and ALA in particular, can interfere with the absorbtion of MDMA,

. please elaborate radiometer... where has swiy read about it ? If swiy has a reference please post it

zinc is actually also a antioxidant, but swim don't know how strong..

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

the half-life of vitamin e is approx 4 hours (288.8minutes) as SWIm understands it form this atricle

EDIT: The biological half-life of vitamin A, has been reported to be as long as 600 days...
hehe, swiy can get quite f**ked if it goes too high, and side effects occur.. 600 days is a long time to wait.
maybe it's excrated from the body before that happens ...

some info on vitamins/antioxidants and side effects

and some more

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

Originally Posted by radiometer

SWIM used to go a bit overboard with pre/post-loading for MDMA, but over the years he's worked it down to this (IMO) very practical regimen:


1) Calcium/Magnesium/Zinc, 100% USRDA each (SWIMs got tablets with all three included), one hour beforehand - this is a great help towards reducing jaw clenching/tension.

2) Antioxidants: 300mg time-release ALA and one "Airborne", about an hour after ingestion of MDMA. There has been some suggestion that anti-oxidants, and ALA in particular, can interfere with the absorbtion of MDMA, which is why SWIM waits until after the MDMA - something about oxidation. If one doesn't buy into this, they might as well take this portion at the same time as #1.

3) Same as #2, taken about 4-5 hours after ingestion. Set a timer so SWIY remembers - this one is the most important!

4) 100mg 5-HTP, taken at same time as #3 or before sleeping.

5) 3mg sublingual melatonin, before sleeping.

SWIM continues to take 100mg 5-HTP the next few mornings.

VERY interesting regimen SWIY has used there!

PLEASE tell:
- approx. how many times swiy has rolled over the years. e.g. monthly/weekly/yearly
- approx. how many mg's of MDMA per roll or tablets. And redosing if SWIY does that..

And most importantly, has SWIY experienced loss of magic,? If so - at what extent?

cheers!

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

Vitamin E appers to be toxic only if taken for an extended period (2 days isn't that)

acute toxicity occurs : >4000 mg/kg [Mouse] (the ld50value)


"Vitamin E (tocopherol) overdose, toxicity, side effects
The health risk of too much vitamin E is low. "
extended period recomandations say not more than 1000mg/day (1500 IU)

SWIM took 1600IU+1600IU today, with no discomfort

[Powder_Reality]

SWIM always makes sure to take vitamins after MDMA use just to be on the safe side.

Generally SWIM will take 100mg of 5-HTP for a few days and then stop taking it for a couple days before he doses. After the MDMA wears off, SWIM takes 100-200mg of 5-HTP, 100mg of Alpha-Lipoic Acid, and 1000mg of Vitamin C. SWIM also makes sure that he eats something afterwards, usually fresh fruit. One last thing that SWIM likes to have on hand is a benzo to take either the next day or the night of dosing to help him sleep (although sleeping usually isn't a problem for SWIM if it's pure MDMA).

SWIM attended a music festival/rave during the summer. On his first night there he consumed roughly 350-400mg of MDMA (way too much for one night). Before SWIM went to bed, he ate some bread and an apple and took 200mg of 5-HTP, 1000mg of Vitamin C, and accidentally took 1000mg of Alpha-Lipoic Acid instead of 100mg (he read his information sheet wrong). The large dose of Alpha-Lipoic Acid caused his stomach and throat to develop a bit of a burning sensation, but it was more annoying than painful. SWIM got a full 8-hour sleep that night and woke up feeling refreshed and glowing. SWIM usually feels pretty rough and and a little depressed the next day after dosing MDMA, but this time he woke up feeling great; a true afterglow.

SWIM should point out that this is purely anecdotal evidence of Alpha-Lipoic Acid's effects on an MDMA hangover, and SWIM cannot back up his experience with any scientific facts that he knows of. SWIM should also point out that he does not know what side effects could occur with such a high dose of Alpha-Lipoic Acid and dose not recommend exceeding 200mg.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	SWIM usually feels pretty rough and and a little depressed the next day after dosing MDMA, but this time he woke up feel...
	Thanks for sharing the regimen.

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

My English ain't that good, so there's something I wonder:

This text:
Repeated administration of the metabolic antioxidant alpha-lipoic acid (100 mg/kg, i.p., b.i.d. for 2 consecutive days) 30 min prior to MDMA did not prevent the acute hyperthermia induced by the drug;


Does that mean that ALA was given like this:

Day 1 : 100mg/kg of ALA (2 times)
Day 2: 100mg/kg of ALA (2 times) and than administering the MDMA dosage 30 minutes after last ALA dose.

OR like this:

Day 1 : 100mg/kg of ALA (2 times) and than administering the MDMA dosage 30 minutes after first ALA dose.
Day 2: 100mg/kg of ALA (2 times)

[chunky funky basslines]

Originally Posted by radiometer

SWIM used to go a bit overboard with pre/post-loading for MDMA, but over the years he's worked it down to this (IMO) very practical regimen:


1) Calcium/Magnesium/Zinc, 100% USRDA each (SWIMs got tablets with all three included), one hour beforehand - this is a great help towards reducing jaw clenching/tension.

2) Antioxidants: 300mg time-release ALA and one "Airborne", about an hour after ingestion of MDMA. There has been some suggestion that anti-oxidants, and ALA in particular, can interfere with the absorbtion of MDMA, which is why SWIM waits until after the MDMA - something about oxidation. If one doesn't buy into this, they might as well take this portion at the same time as #1.

3) Same as #2, taken about 4-5 hours after ingestion. Set a timer so SWIY remembers - this one is the most important!

4) 100mg 5-HTP, taken at same time as #3 or before sleeping.

5) 3mg sublingual melatonin, before sleeping.

SWIM continues to take 100mg 5-HTP the next few mornings.

how effective has then been for reducing swims comedown?

[Fantasian]

SWIF takes 5-HTP for 1 week after use, thats all.

[radiometer]

^ With the strength of the evidence that antioxidants are effective at reducing any possible neurotoxicity, and the fact that vitamins C, A, E, etc. are so cheap, it seems almost perverse to me not to at least take a large vitamin C supplement a few hours into the experience.

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

The Ascorbic-acid/Vitamin C in the mice lab-rapport, which prevented tolerance, and oxidation in the brain was done at a large dose. Equivalent to 50-100 grams for a human. So people can't get as much antioxidants as the mice in the rapport..

BUT this don't have to be true: If a person would take Imodium, before the intake of the Ascorbic acid, they could take a MUCH higher dose than the normal tolerated dose: 5-25grams/day, which causes diarrhea

In fact, if you'd follow the Vitamin C foundation's guidelines, a person can safely take 120 grams, in the duration of a roll
(5 hours), divided into doses taken every twenty minutes (because of the short half life of Ascorbic acid)

Oh, Snap`?

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

SWIM would be so interested in having Alexander Shulgin's tolerance experiment, redone with someone taking a high dose of ascorbic acid, every 20-30minutes.

"In one study, MDMA was consumed at 9:00 AM each day for almost a week (120 milligrams the first day and 160 milligrams each subsequent day) and by the fifth day there were no effects from the drug except for some mydriasis. And even this appeared to be lost on the sixth day."

After looking through what he can find on the way antioxidants work with MDMA, he has really high hopes that no or little tolerance would develope.

And it would be real easy to do to, it would be just to buy 100 vitamin-c pills without taste, crush them up, and mix them in the water SWIY is going to drink anyway. And take some Imodium to aviod diarrhea..

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

Originally Posted by WrtngCocaineTutorial

In fact, if you'd follow the Vitamin C foundation's guidelines, a person can safely take 120 grams, in the duration of a roll
(5 hours), divided into doses taken every twenty minutes (because of the short half life of Ascorbic acid)

Oh, Snap`?

SWIM tried this out yesterday (without MDMA - to check how the body reacts)

He ate 8 grams of ascorbic acid every 20 minutes. Which was fine. But after one hour and 3 quarters, he felt like his stomach had a really low pH. A bad feeling.

After 2hours and 50 minutes, he got a strong diarrhea. Which lasted into the next day.. It's like he was taking a piss out of his ass..

SWIM is going to try to find something which counteracts acid.
Maybe also imodium.
And report back

EDIT SWIM stopped taking vitamins when the diarhea started. Reaching a total of 68 grams of Vit-C