Are amphetamines addictive?

[Richard_smoker]

Originally Posted by Burnt

They are liars (or more rightly so ignorant MD's who don't know shit) and that is total bullshit. All amphetamines are addictive.

Its another excuse by the legal drug dealers to make them seem legit.

I can certainly see where you (or anyone) could think this.

but there is actually evidence based on user pattern-behavior that shows a DEFINITELY DIFFERENT "normal-abuse/escalation of dose pattern" in someone taking, for example, OPIATES (painkillers, heroin) and someone taking ORAL Amphetamine or adderall or ritalin.

Now, that's not to say that there are CERTAINLY people who are addicted to amphetamines. and also that dr's are just as much to blame as any other enablers. you got me there.

But, as lostgurl points out, there is a SIGNIFICANT difference in taking ORAL amphetamine and snorting/iv'ing amps or taking METH.

Cra$h is also correct, but these 3-5 day binges that grow increasingly longer are more TYPICAL with meth...although not impossible with oral amps.

-DICK

[klonopinz]

Swiy should rather ask the question: Is swiy easily addicted to amphetamines, or uppers in general?

Swim's personal experience with amphetamines makes him think of this particular group of drugs, not as addictive, but as specially sensitive chemical to a specific group inside general population. Swim and his close group of friends remember guessing which of our school acquaintances would heavily depend on it by the end of the semester.

Swim recalls that, although some friends went of binges for days on end (recreational, iv & in), they could just stop and not do it for a month, but some other friends couldn't even have coherent conversations unless Ritalin or Dexedrine was taken (therapeutic), and 35 minutes or so have passed to allow ingestion.

Reputation Comments on this post:

nice contribution. EXCELLENT opinion, and well-stated. I agree whole-heartedly, and perhaps I should have said it the ...

[~lostgurl~]

Amphetamines have much more addiction potential when smoked or injected compared with being taken orally: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...09&postcount=9

[jord4n007]

Well, addiction is not a medical term. Technically, the AMA does not recognize the existence of "addiction."

The real terminology is dependence or compulsion.

Opiates and alcohol are prime example of drugs which can cause dependence - basically abrupt abstaining causes systems of the body to fail because these systems have adapted to the presence of said drugs and cannot function properly without them. These are the prime examples because they cause easily visible, physical, often life threatening withdrawals.

Compulsion is basically when the use of a substance (or playing video games, or having sex, or masturbating, etc.) becomes such a central focus of one's life that the person will choose the "compulsion" over other things in life that may need to be done (go to work, pay bills, hygiene, etc) and or over things the person may have previously enjoyed. The person should also experience depression, apathy, and other negative changes in mood whenever distanced from the compulsion. The thing about a compulsion is that its defined as being entirely psychological, "all in the head."

Amphetamines are a sort of gray area. They are absolutely without questions compulsive. The question is do they cause dependency? Do they truly cause tolerance? The immediate response from users is YES, but research shows that it isn't truly tolerance, because if the person takes the time to fully comedown, it does not take a larger dose to become high again the next day. As far as dependency, it is arguable that the brain may become accustomed to elevated dopamine levels, but natural dopamine production is not halted as is the case with endorphin production caused by opiate use.

As far as medical research has proven thus far, amphetamines do not cause dependency. They are not on the level of alcohol or opiates as far as causing a physical crippling bodily need.

However, based on my personal experience, amphetamines are the most psychologically compulsive substance on earth. SWIM feel it is because of the way they seem to boost my abilities and enhance my thinking. SWIM have been a user of amphetamine and methamphetamine for 4 years. SWIM have had a 3 month break between the 3rd and 4th year. The first week was fairly crippling when SWIM stopped using, but after that SWIM experience no severe issues. What SWIM did experience was a feeling in the back of my mind that SWIM wasn't as "good" as SWIM was on amphetamines. As in SWIM wasn't as good a worker, SWIM wasn't as smart, SWIM wasn't as productive, SWIM wasn't as fun, etc. Everything SWIM did SWIM always thought, SWIM could have done this better or faster if SWIM was on speed. This feeling stuck with me for the entire 3 months of sobriety. SWIM eventually said fuck it. SWIM'm now back on speed. Sure, SWIM dislike the end of a binge, and SWIM have the tendency of being an asshole a lot of the time, but SWIM am efficient and effective. The expense sucks, but the amount of hours SWIM can work makes up for it.

For me, it is best explained by this phrase "When SWIM am sober, SWIM fear God, SWIM am weak and incomplete. When SWIM am on amphetamines, SWIM am God, SWIM write my own destiny and SWIM am in control." Regardless of if amphetamines are "physically addictive" (cause dependence), once you experience and being to harness the power they provide, there is no going back unless you are willing to live at your "second best."

[~lostgurl~]

Originally Posted by jord4n007

but natural dopamine production is not halted as is the case with endorphin production caused by opiate use.

Great post, just wondering if you have a source for the information above? This girl I know developed Restless Legs Syndrome (RLS) after long term methamphetamine use, and the general consensus is that the cause of RLS is due to irregular or deficient dopamine levels.

[oxyc]

Amphetamines are seriously addictive swim had a massive problem with them he was taking up to 7 grams a day for 4 years, when he ran out it made him have awful withdrawls runny nose severe anxiety insomnia, palpitations i know it sounds crazy but swim needed speed to sleep in the end, when swim finally stopped using amphetamines he ended up sectioned in an asylum for psychosis and took him over a year of sobriety to get back on his feet, swim would never touch them again it was even worse than his coke habit

[vantranist]

lol, what "medical professionals" agree amphetamines aren't addictive substances?

[100mg Methylphenidate]

To note...from swim's personal experience. He doesn't ever feel quite normal for at least a few days after a speed binge. Even then, he doesn't feel like he functions the same without it. This can last for months. To swim, 20-40mg orally with no tolerance isn't really euphoric anymore, it's just normality.

[jord4n007]

Normally, RLS is caused by low dopamine levels, but having a down regulated dopamine receptor would produce the same result as having low levels.

Analogy: your car won't start if it is out of gas, but if you add gas that has been diluted to the point that it's potency is affected, your car won't start either.

When dopamine receptors down regulate, 1 becomes 0.5, and so even with normal levels of dopamine, a person may experience symptoms of low dopamine levels.

Receptor down regulation is reversible over time.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	interesting, thanks for the response
	good analogy
	excellent analogy.

[titans58]

SWIM's mother back in the 70's use to get diet pills precribed by her Dr. Something rare in the states now days. Swim's mothers daughter use to swip them from her at 13 and be up for almost 24 hrs on this stuff. The daughter loved it and took more and more. I belive its because she just liked them. I think its what ever a person likes and it agrees to them as to what kind of high they like as to if its going to be addictive to them. What one person may get addicted to another doesnt. IMOP anyway.

Reputation Comments on this post:

surprising valuable contribution! you can say a lot with a few words. :)

[StonedImmaculate33]

SWIM knows from experience and from Pharmacology that amphetamines are most definitely addictive. When you're on them for a prolonged amount of time, and your tolerance goes up and you take larger and larger doses, it takes all of your dopamine out of your brain at one time (hence the euphoria some may feel), and your brain doesn't have time to produce the dopamine rapidly enough to compensate for the depression and irritability and lethargy you might experience when off amphetamines. That's why it's so hard to quit. Amphetamines = artificial energy and happiness and SWIM's love affair with it is complicated.

[Richard_smoker]

^^ the majority of dopamine & other neurotransmitters depletion is contingent on the escalating dose patterns, and not the standard known & consistent, daily dosing of amphetamines that is typical of prescribed drugs. It is important that the meds are taken orally for minimal disruption of circadian rhythms. also, it is important that the dose is compatible with a normal amount of nightly sleep. and perhaps most importantly the dose should be consistent.

these parameters make for a much less addictive use of amphetamines. so, perhaps we should define our terms. in the end, it comes down to the responsibility or more specifically the level of self-control demonstrated by the user & patterns of drug use. -DICK

[jord4n007]

Dopamine levels are only lowered at the end of a binge. They are not lowered for any significant amount of time, usually the day you come down and possibly the following day. This is due to depleted reserves, not dependency.

There is no physical widthdrawl from amphetamines. You sleep off the binge. You feel like shit from lack of food and sleep. You then deal with purely psycological compulsion.

Personally, I see the psycological compulsion for meth harder to break than the physical dependency of other drugs. Watching alcoholics and junkies, I notice that many use due to depression. When attempting to become clean it is easy to see the negatives of use if the depression is dealt with. The psychological compulsion of meth is damn near impossible to break through because many can not fathom the thought that things are/could be better without it.

Swim can't. After years of use, Swim sees meth as the mind steroid, and could no sooner stop using than swim could welcome brain damage(of the intellectual variety).

[~lostgurl~]

Originally Posted by jord4n007

Dopamine levels are only lowered at the end of a binge. They are not lowered for any significant amount of time, usually the day you come down and possibly the following day. This is due to depleted reserves, not dependency.

You state this like it is fact, not personal opinion. If so please back it up with a source. I believe this statement to be false but I am open to the idea if you can present evidence to back up this claim.

[StonedImmaculate33]

Dopamine doesn't just run out at the end of the binge.

Chemically, Amphetamines take dopamine out as the drug is kinetically being used by the brain. The rate of depletion depends on 3 things:
1. dependency - same dose as normal, your body adapts to it over time, less dopamine, less effects
2. dose - more amphetamine, more effects, UNTIL the brain can no longer keep up with the dopamine production required to maintain good effects.. result: crappy comedown
3. your brain - not everyone has the same dopamine production rate (for example, some depression patients have a hard time producing the chemical), and not everyone has as many or as many effective dopamine receptors (depression is another good example of this)

That's my answer for you from my pharmacological textbook knowledge. But from experience, SWIM has been prescribed Adderall for about 4 months now. Within the first week SWIM developed a tolerance, in turn upped dosage just slightly without telling the doctor, ran out of the pills before they could get next prescription, and had HORRIBLE withdrawal all within 1st month.

Sorry for rambling, but that's the best knowledge I could pass on to you to answer your question.

[dogzz]

[QUOTE] Originally Posted by jord4n007
Dopamine levels are only lowered at the end of a binge. They are not lowered for any significant amount of time, usually the day you come down and possibly the following day. This is due to depleted reserves, not dependency.
[/QUOTE



Maybe for a first time or very occassional user,....but for a chronic user of meth,...The dopamine levels are not only depleted,...the manufacture of any more is weakened ...no data or facts to base this on,...just personal experience. Through discussion with a lot of meth addicts on various boards.....2 years seems to be the most mentioned length of time before chronic meth addicts were able to again live life and experience joy and happiness again.....As to the balance of brain chemicals returning to normal after prolonged meth use....as far as swim is concerned,...it may never fully repair itself....Swim has tried to go it without any meds....with 3,...actually 4 years clean with a short relapse of a ball at one year clean......the depression got to be overwhelming,....with suicidal thoughts entering the picture swim got back on anti-d's. after a lot of trial and error,....the only anti'd's that help swim are the ones who have a dopamine reuptake inhibitor in em.

Swim isn't a doctor or scientist,....none of what swim wrote has any factual data to back it up......Swim likes to think swim does possess a lot of logical thinking,common sense, and an eye for details......Thru pesonal experience it seems only likely that even after a few years clean,...the dopamine just isn't there in quantities that balance out the brains chemistry........ Maybe someone else here can better explain what is goin on in swim's head....there are some very knowledgeable people that come to this board, that really understand the pharmacological workings of the brains chemistry.

It seems if it was burned out receptors,...that even with dopamine in large amounts, it still wouldnt help....as it takes the receptors to take the ball and run with it so to speak.......and the reuptake inhibitors prevent the dopamine available from being absorbed...or whatever it does....all I do know is it ends up with swim having higher levels of dopamine....

Maybe swim should just go and do the research before babblin off about somethin swim knows only a little about....swim just got a bit fired up about a statement which is so opposite of what swim is experiencing, and many, many of the recovering meth addicts swim talks to on the many recovery boards.

[Amphetarize]

How the brain reacts to meth is just a natural way it deals with too much dopamine. After somebody takes meth, their brain gets flooded with dopamine. The dopamine receptors become desensitized to compensate for all the extra dope. This happens a few minutes after the meth is in effect. Now, the problem hits after the meth wears off, the dopamine receptors are still desensitized, but there's no extra dopamine coming in. So the person feels depressed, etc. After a few days the dopamine receptors become re-sensitized again, and the person feels back to normal. Chronic use amplifies this much more, so much so that after stopping the brain can take a long time to fully re-sensitize the receptors, because it is so use to being flooded with dopamine. The real addictive part though is the fact that unlike a lot of euphoric drugs, meth not only gives one an amazing happy & energetic feeling, but one can perform their regular tasks, BETTER. Everything is better. Faster. Fun.

[Moonage Daydream]

Hell yeah. My pet Norwegian Forest cat has been into them for 4 years, appropriately enough often she puts them in milk. this is kitty's third habit, she managed to give up for two and half years but hated being a slow, unproductive chubby cat. Trouble is, she says that they feel more like a tool than a drug, for work dancing dieting etc etc. So if she were to not do things associated with it she would end up doing very little! My feline friend realises that her habit as nothing compared to either many out here or how it used to be, doing now in a month what she used to do in a week. Better at giving impression of not being wired too. The question she meows out is how long can she keep it up? Slowly and surely it creeps up and kitty has not gone without for more than five days for at least a year. kitty goes to work and is rarely sick. Looks like a normal cat and is not suspiciously skinny cause she also eats cake. When kitty stops she is very bad tempered, cries for no reason, eats and sleeps for Britain and feels soooooo sloooow though intellectually realises that this is illusory. Craves to an annoying degree and feels inefficient too. Just because symptoms are psychological does not mean they are easy to deal with. There are many conditions which are only psychological but are deeply unpleasant though don't want to actually make comparisons.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Very well written.

[humdroid]

Originally Posted by Moonage Daydream

Hell yeah. My pet Norwegian Forest cat has been into them for 4 years, appropriately enough often she puts them in milk. this is kitty's third habit, she managed to give up for two and half years but hated being a slow, unproductive chubby cat. Trouble is, she says that they feel more like a tool than a drug, for work dancing dieting etc etc. So if she were to not do things associated with it she would end up doing very little! My feline friend realises that her habit as nothing compared to either many out here or how it used to be, doing now in a month what she used to do in a week. Better at giving impression of not being wired too. The question she meows out is how long can she keep it up? Slowly and surely it creeps up and kitty has not gone without for more than five days for at least a year. kitty goes to work and is rarely sick. Looks like a normal cat and is not suspiciously skinny cause she also eats cake. When kitty stops she is very bad tempered, cries for no reason, eats and sleeps for Britain and feels soooooo sloooow though intellectually realises that this is illusory. Craves to an annoying degree and feels inefficient too. Just because symptoms are psychological does not mean they are easy to deal with. There are many conditions which are only psychological but are deeply unpleasant though don't want to actually make comparisons.

Norwegian Forest cat
A very elegant breeze of thick soft furry wisdom.
Iamfluffy called speed her 'utility drug' as it was her little lift for those mundane banal times in which she couldnt be arsed.
Who would want to be surrounded by such an ineresting world, with loads to do, but no motivation or confidence to do it?
Eggs-act-leigh
Supply ran out for Iamf, so her life came to a halt, it seemed.
Everything slowed down, and she just wanted to be asleep, not because she was tired, just because it would kill some of the empty hours in her day.
All speed freaks are different, and it takes different ones, different amounts, at different times, to get them to different places.
Tolerance is a big thing with phets.
Even a lightweight can find themselves boshing grams as those tiny, white, wrapped up little wrong-uns get fatter and fatter. The bombs get bigger, more speed gets eaten, and its is insidious.
Your cat gave it up for 2.5 years, but these days, fears she may end up unproductive and worse off for giving up.
Maybe your cat, could do with associating productivity etc with something other than speed.
If she gave it up, for that amount of time, back then, she can do it again.
Maybe its just the fear life will fall apart, rather than it actually happeniing.
Yeah speed withdrawal is psychological, but it is very real.
Has the cat got any dopamine replenishment supplements to take after the speed.
Does the cat have a good diet rich in the neurotransmitters and minerals that speeding usurps?
Does the cat remind herself of those who have quit speed successfully, offline, and on, and that it can be done.
There are things out there to help with the crap sides of not having speed.

[Moonage Daydream]

Love the picture!
Does Iamfluffy mean things like 5-htp and the like? Because kitty has that and already uses that for comedowns, seems to work...
The cat is actually quite sensible within limits of her bad behaviour in that these days she generally sleeps every night (other than on binges which occur about monthly) and insists on three meals a day. The cat knows that she can be productive without speed on one level but unfortunately her brain is split in two, between the rational and needy sides.
Maybe when eventually she is ready to give up then she just needs to take a week off work and sleep? Would the worst be over then?
The other problem is that this time kitty looks much healthier than last time she had a habit. Stopping was made easier because she didn't like being so thin and so fucking obvious, damnit! Yes, this cat does believe one can be too thin0
Unless other cats know what to look for she usually gets away with it in that she can be quite wired but not betray it OR SO SHE THINKS!
Kitty dislikes the deceit the most, as she naturally a very honest cat (and still is in other areas of her life)
Maybe if she forced herself to exercise when she gives then weight gain fears could be allayed as well as feeling better?
Thanks for the advice.

Moonage Daydream added 4 Minutes and 20 Seconds later...

kitty again - about the diet thing she eats generally healthy veggie food including nuts cheese lentils and lots of other veg but probably not enough fruit but then who does in winter?
she thinks that speed gives her low blood sugar as at times she feels faint for no reason so craves sweet things...

[humdroid]

Imafluffy meant l-tyrosine, to replenish dopamine depletion.

IAF knows about the split brain thing.
IAFs depression and irritablity seem to set in, about a week after her last speed dose, which dissappoints IAF, as she thought this would be the time, when things started picking up.
IAF may think there are things in her unconscious which havent come out in therapy, as IAF is unaware of them. These being IAF never did have the life-is-good feeling before drugs, so how can she expect it to return? when it never was there in the first place?
Fear keeps IAF from wanting to stop speed, and her breaks are only getting longer, because the depression is stopping her from even doing base.

This is not true for everyone, though.
IAF hears, that most people return to normal after a few weeks.

IAF actually eats more when speeding, and has a very poor appetite when not speeding. She has enthusiasm for food on speed, and is lifted above her normal depression, when, mostly, she can't face food, not even nice stuff.
IAF can relate to the feeling faint, and this is another reason why she eats on speed, as speed uses up energy, so more fuel is needed. Fruit juice is a valuable thing for IAF.

[Moonage Daydream]

thaniks for the l-tyrosine info, my kitty actually has some of that in her "medical kit"
When depressed, either circumstantially (and not related to speed, back in the days when she didn't have a habit) or comedown/withdrawal related, this cat just eats and eats. If she doesn't force herself to exercise she puts on weight so fast its not funny as when down she eats crap. She is naturally anxious rather than depressed, though sometimes the cat wonders if anxiety is not just fast depression, as there are feelings of hopelessness too...
On speed she eats a normal amount on those maintenance days where she just does a line or ten, and very little on binges, which due to working odd hours happen about monthly. In fact she has stayed up for three days now, with a total of 8 hours of catnaps through 80 hours. She is using pizza and salad as a kind of food sedative, sleep should come soon - she is in work tomorrow so it has to! Kitty last dipped her paw in her speed at 4am so really should be ok. and worked today!
Eating when she would normally eat really helps her mood and she is very nervous but a hell of a lot more functional. Appropriately enough for a feline, flavoured milk works
thanks again for interesting posts and comparisons/advice

[~lostgurl~]

Can we please stay on topic - "Are amphetamines addictive"

[Grey Sky]

Swim has ADHD and is prescribed dexamphetamine at 25mg/day, but it doesn't give him any feelings of euphoria, and he doesn't get an urge to keep taking more and more of it. He develops a tolerance fairly quickly if he takes a constant daily dose, so he takes 35mg a day for 5 days and then takes 2 days off. During the 2 days off, he feels a bit listless, apathetic and fuzzy-headed, but he usually felt like that anyway before he started taking amphetamine, and he finds it a small price to pay for maintaining the improved functionality and all-round greater well-being on the other 5 days of the week.

[edmundo]

SWIM used to be addicted to ecstacy for more than 10 years and replaced this with amphetamine 3 years ago swim suffers for a couple of days when theres no base around its swim's enery give it is centainly a mental addiction