Health - The side effects / health risks of hawaiian baby woodrose

[thcannibislover]

I've never actually had this happen to me, but I have read that eating to much hawaiian baby woodrose seed will make your fingers and feet turn blue as if falling asleep. Can any one tell why?


I dont remember where I read this (so don't take it as anofficial fact) ,which is why I ask, that it is due to the alkaloids direct effect of constricting your blood vessels, which would be why they turn blue, like when you fall asleep on your hand and it goes numb and blue.

[Alfa]

Blue, it was more like grey.(with pure LSA)I could liftmy handsskin and it would stay up for quite a while. It matched the extreme feeling of hydration.

[hazeinmybong2]

Originally Posted by Alfa

Blue, it was more like grey.(with pure LSA)I could liftmy handsskin and it would stay up for quite a while. It matched the extreme feeling of hydration.

Alfa did you actually experiance some ergotism from LSA? I have been combing the board for someone who had reported any symptoms of ergotism from MG or HBWR as I was uncertain of the actual risk involved. Could you elaborate on your experience?

[melt_000]

i would be very wary of trying to induce this, what's really happening when parts of you turn blue is that it's "dead" and it can get gangrene and fall off. this happens with ergot but i've never heard of anyone getting it from lsa though. someone, unwisely perhaps, had dosed about every other day for a week and didn't have any such effects, except his neck hurt the day after. felt like a rash or like he'd slept in a weird position or something, which wasn't the case. if it was related to the hbwr i assume it was because of the other toxins and not the lsa. lsa is such a nice drug but it's so damn unpredictible especially in natural form.

[psyche]

Someone actually had some symptoms of ergotism? I asked about this a while ago in some other thread and was worried. I haven't seen this happening to anyone, even with extreme dosages. That sure isn't good, losing limbs. That seems really rare and I haven't heard anyone having even blue limbs. Swim's feet hurt one time under MGs but it was easily helped with alcohol.

[Alfa]

Originally Posted by HazeInMyBong

Alfa did you actually experiance some ergotism from LSA?

No, I do not consider this ergotism. That it made swim's skin look grey, does not mean there was any ergotism going on. Effects could be treated with cholinerge supplements.

[genaro]

Swim's personal experience:
swim used LSA seeds (HBWR and morining glories), on many occasions, probably over 15 times
He used to take 700-1000 morning glory seeds or 10-12 HBWR seeds for a trip
Once he even took 16HBWR seeds (don't do that, thta's too much for one's mind)


why are my fingers and lips turning blue on high doses of LSA seeds such as HBWR seeds ?


from erowid.org:

Hawaiian baby wood rose contains 0.04% LAA and Total Alkaloids % by weight is 0.30%

Major Alkaloid Content in the seeds of A. nervosa(Burm. f.) Bojer:
alkaloid name---------% of Total alkaloid ---% dry seed weight
Ergine ---------------------------22.68--- 0.136
Isoergine ------------------------31.36--- 0.188
Ergometrine (aka ergonovine) ------8.20--- 0.049
Lysergic alpha-OH-ethylamide ------5.79--- 0.035
Isolysergic alpha-OH-ethylamide ----3.98---0.024


ergometrine (aka ergonovine) is a powerful uterotonic (oxytocic), with powerful vasoconstrictive properties.
It is notably injected to stop uterus hemorrage by causing constriction of blood vessels, there are also some medical preparations that are meant to be used orally.
Ergometrine maleate LD50 i.v. in mice: 8.26mg/kg
From a web search I could find that there's a prescription drug which is 0.5mg ergometrine maleate per pill, these tabs are meant for oral use of course...so, assuming 12 HBWR seeds is 1.5g, then when you eat 12seeds, you're ingesting some 0.75mg ergometrine, which is more than the medical ocytocic dose.
Also note that it is quite possible that a massive overdose of ergometrine could lead to ergotism like symptoms: necrosis/gangrene of the extremities (meaning peripheral vasoconstriction in lips, fingers, ears, balls & penis).

Also, other ergot alkaloids that are present in the seeds are possibly adding some more vasoconstrictive potential to the ergometrine effect.

Note that ololiuqui and morning glory seeds have similar constituents.


This vasoconstrive effect is the reason for:

- lips/fingers turning blue and tingling sensations in the extremities (another symptom is not feeling your peripheral pulse, meaning your pulse in the extremities like fingertips pulse)
One cold morning (outdoor), after a night on 10 hbwr seeds, swim has found himself with almost completely blue lips.

- bad cramps in the legs: quite a few people complained of some intense (really painful) cramp-like pain in the legs...this is also quite probably caused by the vasoconstricting effect of the ergometrine...needless to say that these people should NOT use LSA seeds.
Swim never experienced such cramps personally, but he knows a few people that did (friends of him complaining of bad painful cramps in the legs)


Risks of LSA seeds due to their vasoconstrictive effect:

1)if someone has some blood vessel anomaly in his brain which is latent and non-diagnosed yet (which is less uncommon that one may think), such as a small aneurysm/Ischemy in the brain, then a small dose of ergometrine could put this person in some serious life-threatening condition.
This is the reason why doctors tends not to give ergometrine to treat chronic migraine: even if ergometrine can be a very efficient medecine against migraine (in very small dose, 0.1mg at most), doctors prefer to avoid it as they know that there's still some risk for the patient to have some small "benin" ischemy in his brain that the ergometrine would turn into a fucking dangerous aneurysm.

2)I think boys could also be concerned by vasoconstrictive effect on their testicles (balls): ergometrine is given to women in case of uterus haemorrhage (the vasoconstrictive effect stopping the haemorrhage by significantly reducing the circulation of blood in different part of the body including the uterus). The problem is that men's testicles are much more delicate than a uterus and excessive vasoconstriction could lead to sterility.
Symptoms of excessive peripheral vasoconstriction in testicles are the balls turning "brownish" and your penis reduced to some ridiculous size (smaller than a child penis), however it's important to say that SWIM never experienced such symptoms on LSA (but he had these from an overdose with a completely different drug, dramamine, so that's why swim knows about these symtoms)
I think normally LSA seeds should not cause big troubles for one's balls with occasional use, but I have no idea of the consequences of regular (frequent) long term use. I mean the ergometrine concentration in the seeds isn't big enough to lead to gangrene when using a normal dose of seeds, but there is no way to know how harmful it can be to your cells if these are quite regularly left poorly irrigated with blood.
Anyway, that was just an hypothesis.

3)Now, if I think the ball story is unlikely to be that bad (unless you use lsa seeds weekly for years), I really wonder what effects massive long term use of vasoconstrictive substances can have on your cardio-vascular system.
It is of common sense that massive use of vasoconstrictors cannot be good for it.
I think this is a more serious risk of extreme lsa seeds use.


Conclusion:
I guess that if there was serious risks with occasional use, we should now it by now as LSA seeds have a long history of human use, but we have no real info about regular/massive use consequences, which is what I'm worried about.
The obvious advice here would be: don't use LSA seeds to often.

If there are any people on this forum who have been using LSA seeds massively at some point of their life and then, later on, had a baby I would be happy to hear them...that would somewhat reassure me about heavy use of LSA seeds side effects


Also important, as HBWR & morning glory & ololiuqui contain vasoconstrive ergot alkaloids, LSA containing seeds are not to be used if:

#lsa seeds makes you feel bad painful "cramps" in the legs
#Life long inherited blood diseases which can cause a variety of symptoms, including mental health problems (porphyrias)
#pregnancy (pregnant women)
# Decreased kidney function
# Decreased liver function
# pancreas troubles
# Decreased lungs function
# Disease involving the blood vessels
# anemia
# hyperthyroidism
# Elderly people
# Heart disease
# High blood pressure
#cardiovascular troubles (hypotension/hypertension troubles)
# Infection of the blood or body tissues with pus-forming or other pathogenic organisms (sepsis)

This list is something serious, no joke.

Also do not combine high doses of LSA seeds with too much alcohol or with depressant substances (serious risk of respiratory depression which is really dangerous, if it's is really bad it can lead coma and death within a few minutes).
This is the main immediate risk of LSA seeds (or pure lsa) use, and it's not something to be taken lightly.
...happened to swim once from an extract made from 1000 morning glory seeds: swim had been doing the same dose of seeds with no problems on other occasions, but this time he decided to take a few puffs of ether while peaking which triggered some severe respiratory depression (almost stopped breathing within 20minutes but I was lucky and things finally came back to normal after some more 10minutes, but it was a close one, freaky)
SWIM heard a few people reporting similar experiences (all these people thought there were going to die from suffocation, It seems they were lucky too)
Therefore, if you're completely drunk or quite sedated/sleepy/comatous from any drug, do not take lsa seeds (or pure lsa)...and of course do not take depressants or too much alcohol when on LSA.


PS: I made lots of researches before posting this text, and in order to give valuable info I asked my mother which is a gynaecologist (often using ergometrine) about risks, side effects, active doses and effect of excessive doses.

Also, if you ever found yourself involved into some serious vasoconstrictive effect from any stuff (fingers turning blue, balls turning brown), then taking a really hot bath might relieve it (this could be a good solution if you ever get some unbearable leg pain on lsa seeds).

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Very informative post, thanks for doin the research...
	very usefull
	Good info, definitly good to know.
	Fantasticly complete heath risk assesment

[csharpprogrammer]

Given that LSA has vasoconstrictive properties, could SWIM take a vasodilator to counter these potential dangers? And if so, does SWIY have any recommendations?

[thcannibislover]

hmm, yes but the feeling might not be a true feeling persay, but we all know you really felt it, but what I,m trying to say is that if it is a result of constricted vesels, wouldn't one just eat some spicy peppers like jalapenios or something, because they contain a chemical that opens your vesel and allows more blood flow which is why your body get hot and you start to sweat,It might counteract the bluing(greying) that acures.

please corect me if Im wrong.

[Dr_H]

I think Alfa ment "extreem feeling of DE-hydration". Pinching the back of the hand and watching the skin is a dehydration test. If you are dehydrated your skin will remain standing. If you are hydrated (have enought water) the skin is more elastic and just goes right back down.


I thing the bluing skin is a result of constricting blood vessels as thcannibislover says. I don't know about the peppers but it sounds reasonalble.

[thcannibislover]

wow I posted this a long time ago good to see some one read it. I tried this 3 time never got blueing, but the thing is that I did It 3 times after with no peppers same dose all doses being a week apart took 6 weeks to do, and didnt get blueing eather. so I guess I need to find a dose I constantly blue at and go from there.
Peace out

[Dr_H]

That is an ood drug goal! Most people want the effect of the drug with out the side effects. You however are going for the side effects so that you may cure them. I am not sure if that is a nobel endeaver or a foolhardy undertaking. Reguardless you have piqued my interest and please be sure to post your results.

[thcannibislover]

I will thank you, I guess... Swim has 1.5oz of heavenly blues in his closet he just got and his friends birthday is next week on friday and they plan to dose. there will be three of them and 2 sitters, swim will use 15 grams, they will each use (excluding sitters they be stoned) 10 grams, I hope to get greying Ill post back next week...

[LD50]

The greying that you'r talking about sounds like classic ergotism(poisoning) and is not to be taken lightly. Read up on what happened in salem from ergotism. Also read the pharmceutical books on drugs like cafergot(migraine drugs)as they containe ergot and have similar warnings.

Chase the colours not the sides young jedi.

Later
LD50

[Dr_H]

It has been awhile and I am wondering if thcannibislover has conducted his experiments? If you are still out there I would love to hear the results of that last expedition!

[KYLESUCKS]

will an MAOi work well with LAA/LSA? Swim has enough syrian rue to choke
a horse and i think he'll take a hefty dose several hours before taking
his HBWR potion. is there a marked difference with or without the MAOi
plus LSA?

[BrugmansiaBrujo]

MAOI with the seeds will make you sick.

[snapper]

The problem with HBWR seeds is the vasoconstriction. Many complain of
severe pain in the thighs from spasming femoral arteries. Also, NO
visuals whatsoever, though big dilated pupils and an LSD like mental state
do occur. Morning glories or R. corymbosa are much better.

Snapper

[CrookedEye]

"I want to briefly touch upon the entheogens as they exist in the less technological area of existance. It is conjectured that the Kykeon of the Eleusian Mysteries contained none other than Ergine (LA-111), it's source being Claviceps purpurea (ergot).

Albert Hofmann guessed that a water-based extraction from ergot infested barley would have isolated the LA-111 and left behind those substances responsible for the horrific phenomenenon known as ergotism. Ergine has been present in other cultures and has been present in other plant sources.

Morning Glory seeds and Baby Hawaiian Woodrose seeds contain LA-111; Baby Hawaiian Woodrose seeds contain .3%. LA-111 is the active principle of the Ololiuhqui ("rounded things") of the Aztecs. Among the entheogens that man has used ritually is Cannabis sativa (Cannabis indica is actually a sub-species of this according to Ott), N,N-Dimethyltryptamine in various plants, beta-carbolines, 3,4,5-trimethoxyphenethylamine (mescaline), muscimol/ibotenic acid, psilocin, and many others."

--Taken from lycaeum (no links to other forums allowed or I'd paste the link.. I am sure a google search would turn it up)

[hazeinmybong2]

I think boys should also be concerned by vasoconstrictive effect on their testicles (balls): methyl-ergometrine is given to women in case of uterus haemorrhage (the vasoconstrictive effect stopping the haemorrhage by significantly reducing the circulation of blood in different part of the body including the uterus). As said ergometrine has a similar effect. The problem is that men's testicles are much more delicate than a uterus and excessive vasoconstriction could lead to sterility.
Symptoms of excessive vasoconstriction in testicles are the balls turning "brownish" and your penis reduced to some ridiculous size (smaller than a child penis).

haha I bet like ten people stopped taking HBWR. I still would like to try them eventually when I am in the right mindset etc. I just wanted to know if anyone was experiencing any real bad side effects. Thanks for the replies.

[genaro]

Well, excessive vasoconstriction might destroy testicles ability to produce spermatozoid, as the part of the testicles where spermatozoid cells are synthetised is a sensitive part of the body (less resistant to chemical shocks than other parts of the organism), and vasoconstriction always affects periferal parts at first, more intensly than any other part of the body...that's why I was thinking that maybe long term exposure to vasoconstrictive stuff couldn't be good for people's balls, but my comment was clearly excessive and paranoid because...
...even if there's some ergot toxicity with LSA seeds, it's most probably not intense enough to end up in sterility in anyway...don't worry.

This beeing said, I'm pretty sure it's not good for one's people health (I'm not speaking of any balls concern here but of general health concern) to be regularly exposed to vasoconstrictors (even if it's not potent doses enough to induce gangrene), notably for your cardio-vascular system and for the cells which might be regularly left poorly irrigated due to massive regular use of ergometrine containing seeds.
Occasional use is very probably safe (long history of human use of the seeds does confirm it), but long term regular (frequent) use is probably something that it would be better to avoid as we don't know much about its possible consequences...

only important note about LSA (aka ergine aka LA-111):

it's psychedelic but it's also a definite depressant, meaning that the highest the dose the more it depress your CNS which means that combining high dose of LSA containing seeds with depressants is really dangerous, can cause coma and possibly death due to acute respiratory depression (happened to me once, and other people have reported such OD when drinking a bit too much alcohol after high doses of LSA).
So don't mix high dose LSA with alcohol (3-4 beers over the all night -meaning over 8 to 10 hours - might be ok, but 3-4 beers within one or two hours is an extremely bad idea! ...and strong alcohols are to be avoided at all cost). As said this depends on the dose of LSA seeds you did use (for instance drinking some beer with 4 hbwr seeds isn't that dangerous), but with heavy doses I strongly suggest you don't drink any alcohol.
Also one should NOT mix LSA with depressant substances such as opiates, ketamine, benzos, sedatives, tranquilizers and also no IMAOs (such as harmala) !

note that when acute respiratory depression occurs, it might happen very quickly, and if it's a severe case then coma and death can be a matter of very little time (30min to one hour) so this is not something to play with, this is serious.


Now, about LSA seeds secondary effects:

-nausea & also vomitting with high doses (quite unpleasant but it can easly be avoided by making an extract and using it on empty stomach)

- moderate vasoconstrictive effect of the seeds can cause numbness and/or tingling sensations in the extremities, blueish lips (rarely fingers), tensions and cramps (especially in the back and legs, possibly in the arms too), jaw tensions, electric shiverings/tingling sensations in the body. Note that a few people get very bad pain in the legs, this is uncommon but I've heard quite a few people reporteing such nasty side effects (if you get such a bad pains/cramps I suggest you don't use lsa seeds).
Because LSA seeds produces some vasoconstriction (they have some cardiovacular effect) I would suggest not to mix these with any vasoconstrictive substances such as ephedrine/pseudoephedrine and cocaine, and in a more general way I would prefer not to mix LSA seeds in high dose with stimulants (coke, amphets, meth, XTC and MDxx compounds...).

- slight respiratory depression (normal with high dose, not dangerous as long you do not take heroic dosages and don't mix with alcohol or depressants), another symptom of CNS depression is the slight drowsiness that these seeds produce (can be considered as pleasant and relaxing, might feel more peaceful than lsd)

- mild allergic reaction: HBWR seeds always make my nose feel blocked (the inner part of my sinuses feel like swollen), I guess this is due to some mild allergic reaction, can be unpleasant but doesn't seem dangerous to me, anyway start low (4 or 5 hbwr seeds for your first time) just to see how you react to the seeds before going through strong dosages

-dilated pupils (this is normal, mine go like huge black flying saucers)

-As LSA seeds can be very psychedelic (don't underestimate their strenght, can be as mind blowing as lsd), bad trips are still possible (anxiety, confusion, paranoia, fear, panic, unwanted and overwhelming feelings): so ensure good set & settings (LSA seeds can be quite blissful if used correctly).
Individuals currently in the midst of emotional or psychological upheaval in their everyday lives should be careful about choosing to use strong psychedelics such as LSA as they can trigger even more difficulty.
Individuals with a family history of schizophrenia or early onset mental illness should be extremely careful because LSA can trigger latent psychological and mental problems.


Contraindications: LSA seeds should not be used if...

#lsa seeds makes you feel bad painful "cramps" in the legs
#Life long inherited blood diseases which can cause a variety of symptoms, including mental health problems (porphyrias)
#pregnancy (pregnant women) as LSA seeds contain ergot alkaloids that can cause uterine contractions and abortion.
# Decreased kidney function
# Decreased liver function
# pancreas troubles
# Decreased lungs function
# Disease involving the blood vessels
# anemia
# hyperthyroidism
# Elderly people
# Heart disease
# High blood pressure
#cardiovascular troubles (hypotension/hypertension troubles and such)
# Infection of the blood or body tissues with pus-forming or other pathogenic organisms (sepsis)
# Individuals with a family history of schizophrenia or early onset mental illness
# And of course...do not operate heavy machinery. Do Not Drive.

[Naddz07]

The only things bad i have experienced about them is(About 8 HBWS or 10 if I grab some small ones. ) #1. I get that leg pain so bad! As long as you keep walking around, your good to go. But as soon as you lay down/sit down for a few minutes and get back up, it's terrible. #2. I cant sleep at all that night. As soon as i close my eyes, i just go to "adventure land" then snap out of it like 20 seconds later JOLTING in an upright position. #3. Complete loss of sense of time! I sit down, enjoy the trip and feels like literly a several days of just sitting there and i look back at the clock and its less than 5 minutes later. *Saying to myself, "im going crazy"* This is what bothers me the most. It happened my first time and i never wanted to do these things again. But i did a few weeks later. #4 Everything sounded so weird the next day at work, could not focus for shit!! (This only happened 1 time @ 10 seeds) Evreything was like so extremely echoed and echoed slower and slower over time and like changed into music. I mean, it was cool as hell! But try waiting tables when this shit is happening! I ended up going home early with a "stomach ache" But overall, This aint that bad compaired to the enjoyment i get out of it. OH YEA! one more thing! My arms one time lost feeling and felt like they were not my arms, like they didnt belong? It was very strange, hard to explain. My arm stayed straight out in front of me for at least 45 minutes with me just examining it. Best way to describe it is it felt like they were not supposed to be there. That wasnt too much of a negitive tho. It amused me Good luck with them!

[Skygooose]

SWIM took about 8 of these seeds that he bought from a local store. Swim felt all of the above said leg and limb numbness, but I only really felt it as I got up from sitting down for a long time. At one point in the trip SWIM and swims friends sprinted around a field. So SWIM thinks that maybe exercise might help loosen up the blood vessels that are being explained as one of the main negative side effects. If you are feeling numbness or pain, just try to get up and get your blood flowing and it should help enhance the trip.

[Alfa]

This thread will be expanded. Please post about the side effects of hawaiian baby woodrose here.

[Praxis]

What is this I hear about HBWR causing Anxiety? is this the same feeling as when someone who isnt you or me is waiting for the drug to kick in and is like "dammit when is this fucking thing gonna work" or does this jsut dcause anxiety like generalised anciety disorder?