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Opiate addiction Support for coping with Opiate addiction and Opiate addiction treatment.

 
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  #1  
Old 06-12-2012, 23:48
imquittingforgood imquittingforgood is offline
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suboxone vs subutex

my dog tried suboxin and it made him very sick. he had terrible stomach cramps. my dog could not even stand up for like 18 hours. he is going to try and quit again and is looking for subutex. since it is missing the naloxin he is hoping that it will work better for him. does anyone have any experiences with it? with the subutex do you have to wait the 24 hour. Before taking it? thank you in advance.
  #2  
Old 07-12-2012, 00:04
Magilla Magilla is offline
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Re: suboxone vs subutex

How long did you wait from switching from your DOC to Suboxone? Is it possible this was a case of precipitated withdrawl? Or perhaps from something you ate? So before going any further how long did you wait and what was your dose of Suboxone taken and by what route did you take it? Recently switched from Suboxone to Subutex mainly due to the fact I am not a fan of anything extra and the nalaxone wasn't helping with my already persistent migraines. You should wait AT LEAST 24 hours more if possible until you are in moderate to severe withdrawls for the Suboxone to really work wonders. The only difference is the price if paying out of pocket and that Subutex is only Buprenorphine and Suboxone is Buprenorphine with 2mg nalaxone to 8mg buprenorphine.

EDIT:
It doesn't prevent injection even though it is claimed to be put into Suboxone to do so. Evidently it is inactive across the board, as Buprenorphine out competes it to the receptors every single time as Nace pointed out. So the Buprenorphine is what makes it nearly impossible to get high as it covers ones receptors and fills them very tightly.

Post Quality Evaluations:
Bad information. Naloxone doesn't stop someone from getting high. It is intended to stop injecting Suboxone.

Last edited by Magilla; 15-12-2012 at 21:31.
  #3  
Old 07-12-2012, 04:22
Nace Nace is offline
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Re: suboxone vs subutex

Along with what the swimmer just said about the precipitated withdrawals, my dog would also like to let your dog know from experience that my dog's friend gets violently ill off of suboxone and subutex.

The doggy is not trying to give false or misinformation about this but there also many threads dealing with the naloxone in the suboxone that your dog may want to UTSE. Have your dog try looking for information about how the naloxone doesn't have as much of an effect due to receptors.

This information that is out of my dog's league so take it with a grain of salt. My dog does not feel qualified to be the one giving any technical information so please look around the internet. It may not be the naloxone but the buprenorphine itself. Swim is just trying to point you into the right direction with this issue because Swim knows a few friends who get violently ill off of the smallest amount of both suboxone and subutex.

Hope someone else can enlighten your dog further.
  #4  
Old 07-12-2012, 04:25
imquittingforgood imquittingforgood is offline
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Re: suboxone vs subutex

Hello. My dog waited 18 hours. He doesn't think it was preantisapated wd because he felt fine besides the stomach cramps. He was defiantly in wd, sweaty running eyes/nose, incredibly emotional, groggy as all hell. Maybe not far enough along?
He took it by pill form, just a little bit. He started to feel some relief waited a little while and took a little more. Ge felt good enough to go to work except a little pain in the stomach. After about an hour it kept getting worse and worse. It hurt so bad all he could do was roll upvin a ball and lie there. It was horrible. I did some g googleing and read that stomach cramps are a common sjde effect. The side effect,is caused by the naloxine. He is over getting high he really wants his life back. He wants to do a week taper so he wont
ust trade one for another.
What other differences do you feel are noticeable between the two?
  #5  
Old 07-12-2012, 17:33
Magilla Magilla is offline
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Re: suboxone vs subutex

Both need to be used sublingual, really wouldn't be surprised if you swallowed all of the spit you had built up from the Suboxone the naloxone made your stomach upset. So, SPIT IT ALL OUT after about 5-10min it is all absorbed. My friends doctor told them that would be fine to do and would lessen the chance of nalaxone being absorbed at all. Also remember nothing 15 min before you sublingually dose with Suboxone should enter your mouth, mainly smoke but anything else as well as 15 min after. So bacially set aside 45 mins where you don't drink, smoke, eat etc. This allows much more the of the suboxone to be absorbed. Usually my friend uses listernine 15 min before sublingual dosage and that is it. Then they wait about a half hour after it has completely dissolved and spit out nasty orange spit until they smoke a ciggy. Really the only difference is the nalaxone, otherwise they are the same dose buprenorphine and the nalaxone isn't supposed to even be active fully if used sublingually and someone correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the buprenorphine out compete it to the receptor anyway and then the nalaxone just kind floats around for a few hours and then is dissipated? Best of luck.
  #6  
Old 08-12-2012, 08:29
Nace Nace is offline
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Re: suboxone vs subutex

Mag, AFOAF had read mutiple posts about how the buperenorphine out competes the nalaxone to the receptors and that the nalaxone is just for FDA regulations. He can't be completely sure of this due to reading it on the internet; but he feels that many, if not all high ranked individuals on this forum give excellent information.

Not to go off topic too much but a rabbit of mine sometimes uses buprenorphine+nalaxone (suboxone) in an intravenous way. The nalaxone literally has no effect; no PWD (unless swiy is not completely off of the opiate of choice).

~~For the record, I would never advise any swimmer to do what this rabbit does on occasion due to obvious (or sometimes not so obvious) ----harm reduction---- (if you don't know what I am talking about just do a UTFSE for "shooting pills" and you will get a ton of information why you should never do it.~~

Back to topic, sorry; I am personally on a suboxone program. I what you have explained in your second post is exactly what happened to me. Stomach pains so bad that I could hardly stand. '
Another piece of information is that during my visits to my suboxone doc (prescriber) every time I go in he asks if I have stomach pains. My stomach issue only happened once or twice so I really don't know and the doctor doesn't say much about it.

I would talk to you doctor again. try switching to pure buprenorphine (no nalaxone) and see what happens there. Buprenorphine could just not be for you which I really hope that isn't the case because it has helped me in so many ways. It is a very helpful tool.

Again. I am just sharing experiences from AFOAF and a few other rabbits, and myself. I wish I could give more advice but I really hope you find something will help you quit for good, imquittingforgood

best of luck. for real. I hope you can figure it all out.

-nace the Negative.

Last edited by Nace; 08-12-2012 at 08:35. Reason: clarification
  #7  
Old 10-12-2012, 03:20
N0rthrnCa707 N0rthrnCa707 is offline
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Re: suboxone vs subutex

Bupenoraphine is what kicks weaker opiates. The naloxone is only there for injection purposes. The amount of naloxone in suboxone is not enough to have an impact on the bupenoraphine.
  #8  
Old 12-12-2012, 13:40
N0rthrnCa707 N0rthrnCa707 is offline
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Re: suboxone vs subutex

Suboxone has naloxone.
Subutex has no naloxone, just bupenoraphine.
The bupenoraphine kicks out previous opiates and causes precipitated withdrawl. Meaning it kicks out previous opiates already in your brain, but since it is only a partial agonist, it doesn't usually have the strength of the opiate it kicked out. So your body freaks out it lost the full against opiate, so you go through a quick, violent withdrawl.
  #9  
Old 13-12-2012, 02:14
Magilla Magilla is offline
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Re: suboxone vs subutex

In reply to Nace's rabbit and N0rthrnCa707s last post:

(May make this into its own thread as it has nothing to do with subutex however for now will leave it here for one of you or whoever else sees this to answer)

A friend of mine had about a half bundle a day habit, 5 bags split up usually into 3 in morning 2 at night. So one day they decided to quit and had some Suboxone to make this withdrawl period much easier and then taper off the Suboxone and be done with it all. So they had done there last 2 bags the previous night around midnight and went to sleep. They woke up in rather bad withdrawl and I am not sure but they say they didn't shoot a bag but instead waited it out as I told them they would have to wait at least 24 hours until switching to Suboxone. Well around 9 that night so about 21 hours after last use they decided against my advice to inject a quarter of Suboxone instead of just taking half sublingual in hopes of conserving more Suboxone. This was a horrible idea. Immediately after they shot 2mg Suboxone so .5 nalaxone as well, they burst out of their room towards the bathroom screaming OH GAWD, OH GAWD! I had not idea what he had done so went to check on them and they told me what had happened, their pupils were HUGE and they were drenched in sweat so I immediately suggested a shower. So my friend ripped their clothes off and got in the shower for about a half hour and I made sure they were OK the entire time, well when they got out according to them they began feeling better, about a half hour later we were watching a movie and they had no complaints of withdrawl at all, actually said they felt better than they have in a while! This was miraculous to me as I thought they precipitated withdrawls would last longer and they were going to be miserable for a while however this was not the case, instead it seemed like they had gone through a super severe short withdrawl of some sort immediately post injection until they got out of the shower. So after this I told them they were lucky to be feeling better and to never do that again as they could have ended up much worse. He agreed and said it was strange how he seemed to have skipped the long drawn out week withdrawl of heroin and condensed into one horrifying hour of fear for their life. The next day they didn't even feel the need to take anymore Suboxone and cured from their addiction! This was amazing to me and I am wondering how this was possible? Also in follow up later on that day they said they had a craving for heroin so I urged them to take some Suboxone instead and they did this time the proper route of administration 4mg and the craving subsided within an hour. This is the only time I have ever heard of someone putting themselves through precipitated withdrawls and then not have any withdrawl symptoms after, any ideas as to what happened? Is his stupid mistake possibly onto something great? Since then he has got into a Suboxone clinic and has been maintaining ever since. I really wish they had seen how long they could have gone fighting the craving which is strictly mental to see if all of their physical withdrawl issues had been dealt with when they put themselves through that rush from hell...
  #10  
Old 13-12-2012, 05:31
N0rthrnCa707 N0rthrnCa707 is offline
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Re: suboxone vs subutex

The naloxone in suboxone (2 mg) is not a high enough dose orally/sublingually to make an impact on the bupenoraphine. The only reason naloxone is in suboxone is for IV use. When you put the naloxone in your veins, it is an adequate dose to mess with bupenoraphine & any other opiate floating around and indeed will send the user into the withdrawal. It may only last a little time before the naloxone wears off and the bupenoraphine takes over. Naloxone doesn't stick around very long, at least that's my understanding and I'm not a professional, I just read a lot and try to understand things the best I can.
What I do know though, IV suboxone is not a very good idea. They morphed from subutex to suboxone just for that reason.
  #11  
Old 13-12-2012, 05:52
Magilla Magilla is offline
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Re: suboxone vs subutex

Any idea what happened to my friend on that occasion and if it was only the buprenorphine knocking whatever opiates were still on his receptor off which caused this to happen or if because he shot the Suboxone the nalaxone was active but only for a few minutes and then the buprenorphine took over and eliminated his withdrawls? It was a very strange occurance and I still mention it to him sometimes and he says, "Oh Gawd, Don't remind me!"
  #12  
Old 29-12-2012, 03:28
Magilla Magilla is offline
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Re: suboxone vs subutex

Quote:
Originally Posted by N0rthrnCa707 View Post
The naloxone in suboxone (2 mg) is not a high enough dose orally/sublingually to make an impact on the bupenoraphine. The only reason naloxone is in suboxone is for IV use. When you put the naloxone in your veins, it is an adequate dose to mess with bupenoraphine & any other opiate floating around and indeed will send the user into the withdrawal. It may only last a little time before the naloxone wears off and the bupenoraphine takes over. Naloxone doesn't stick around very long, at least that's my understanding and I'm not a professional, I just read a lot and try to understand things the best I can.
What I do know though, IV suboxone is not a very good idea. They morphed from subutex to suboxone just for that reason.
So what explains the "rapid detox" explained by many a junkie who have iv'ed either subutex or suboxone and had a habit at the time? Is it the buprenorphine simply having such a long half-life and being such a potent binder to receptors it simple knocks everything off and then just eases one out of withdrawal over the hardest of days basically, the same it works normally except rapidly due to the ROA being IV?

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buprenorphine, injecting buprenorphine, injecting suboxone, shooting buprenorphine, shooting suboxone, suboxone, subutex

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