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  #1  
Old 11-12-2012, 04:47
ak40salmon ak40salmon is offline
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Smoking synthetics while on probation

Hi, my friend is smoking synthetics purchased at the gas station while on probation and getting drug tested. He is worried about possible outcomes from this. The tests are basic dip stick tests for basic drugs, but he is paranoid naturally and does not want to violate probation. Any advise on this topic would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
  #2  
Old 11-12-2012, 05:33
snarkymalarky snarkymalarky is offline
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Re: Smoking synthetics while on probation

Basic pee tests will not detect RC cannabinoids. However, there are two risks you should be aware of:

1) There are some tests for cannabinoids. AFAIK, they involve being sent to a lab for GC/MS testing, so basic pee in a cup and see the results right away tests shouldn't be a problem. Nevertheless, this is an area where technology is growing and I wouldn't be surprised if some basic UA's out there could test for cannabinoids.

2) There is a chance that a blend could contain RC's other than cannabinoids that might show up on a test. For example, some blends have been to contain phenazepam, which will probably show up as a benzo.

I had a pee test for employment recently. I smoke small amounts of cannabinoids every few days and I passed fine, but you never know. Best advice is to abstain from blends for at least 3 days before any tests, that's the only way to be sure.
  #3  
Old 11-12-2012, 06:08
ak40salmon ak40salmon is offline
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Re: Smoking synthetics while on probation

So your saying synthetic cannabinoids only stay in you system for 3 days? If so, are you 100% sure of this?
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Old 11-12-2012, 06:41
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Re: Smoking synthetics while on probation

100% sure? He can't be 100% certain but would 95% certain be suffice? Are you willing to risk the 5% chance he is wrong?

The problem probation departments face when testing those on supervision is the vast selection of synthetic cannabinoids at the end users disposal. With such a selection, it's hard to be 100% certain on anything, especially since you haven't clearly mentioned a particular one, but rather asking a general question about a class of drugs.

A "expected" dip stick test used by some probation departments test for the following:

Amphetamine (AMP1000 or AMP300), Barbiturates (BAR), Benzodiazepines (BZO), Buprenorphine (BUP), Cocaine Metabolites (COC150 or COC300), EDDP (EDDP - Methadone Metabolite), Marijuana (THC), MDMA (Ecstasy), Methadone (MTD), Methamphetamine (M-AMP), Opiates (OPI300 or OPI2000), Oxycodone (OXY), Phencyclidine (PCP), Propoxyphene (PPX) and Tricyclic Antidepressants (TCA).
  #5  
Old 11-12-2012, 06:46
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No way.
three days may be enough for someone consuming every now and then. When they are consumed more often they accumulate in the body the same as THC does. this is valid mainly for substances that are soluble in unpolar solvents.
go to your local pharmacy and get yourself some THC dipstick tests, then you'll know and not have to ask. this is the only way to be sure.

@snarkymalarky:
how come you are sure synthetics cannabinoids dont show up on a dip-stick test for thc? I mean when these substances bind to the same receptors it might be sensible to presume they also would bind on a dipstick...is there any evidence you could cite? Your anecdotal report doesn't help further, sorry to say, but I think your argumentation is flawed.

BBW

EDIT:
Don't bother with the content of the 2nd paragraph, I stand corrected by snarkymalarky's post #6 in this thread, I was obviously having a mighty flaw in my thinking.
W.

Last edited by TheBigBadWolf; 13-12-2012 at 00:50. Reason: addition:correction
  #6  
Old 11-12-2012, 23:17
snarkymalarky snarkymalarky is offline
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Re: Smoking synthetics while on probation

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBigBadWolf View Post

@snarkymalarky:
how come you are sure synthetics cannabinoids dont show up on a dip-stick test for thc? I mean when these substances bind to the same receptors it might be sensible to presume they also would bind on a dipstick...is there any evidence you could cite? Your anecdotal report doesn't help further, sorry to say, but I think your argumentation is flawed.

BBW
Drug tests detect metabolites of drugs in your body. Metabolites of most RC cannabinoids are not the same as THC metabolites. These are chemicals that are different from THC at the molecular level and they are processed differently by the body. It would not be sensible to presume that cannabinoids are detected the same way as THC. Receptor activity is irrelevant -- it's all about molecular structure.

Here is some info from the National Drug Court Institute:

Quote:
Q Do standard drug tests detect the presence of synthetic cannabinoids in urine following the smoking of herbal incense products?
A Conventional drug testing methods used by drug courts (either on-site, rapid tests or laboratory-based analyses) will not detect the presence of synthetic cannabinoids in urine. The synthetic cannabinoids are currently not detected by standard cannabinoid testing methods.
http://www.ndci.org/sites/default/fi...nandAnswer.pdf

Here is the same thing from Redwood Toxicology, who developed RC cannabinoid tests:

Quote:
Will a standard drug test detect synthetic cannabinoids?
Conventional drug test panels will not detect the broad range of
synthetic cannabinoids. They pass undetected in standard urine testing
for such drugs as cocaine, marijuana, heroin and amphetamines.
There is also information here that supports the 72-hour window for testing and that explains how RC cannabinoids are metabolized. Read it at: http://www.redwoodtoxicology.com/doc...370_sc_faq.pdf

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Thank you for adding the info and sources.
  #7  
Old 11-12-2012, 23:29
GeographyGeography GeographyGeography is offline
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Re: Smoking synthetics while on probation

Having been on probation myself I can pretty much guarantee you that unless you mention a specific cannabinoid or product to your probation officer, they are not going to be able to detect them. They are metabolized differently and create totally different byproducts in the body that have to be tested for...The major attraction of these fake pot products is exactly that.

If you are in a big city especially, your probation officer is not going to have the time to research getting special drug tests (Unless he suspects you of using one) But chances are your average probation officer is not going to know what MXE or AM-2201 is. However, pending the new legislation this very well could change in the near future, and I personally know of several drug testing clinics that do now test for the JWH series. I would not be at all surprised if in the future standard dipsticks test for JWH with all the hype it is getting. Take advantage of research cannabinoids' relative obscurity while it lasts

I know I certainly benefitted from their availability during my stint on probation. Researching RCs and the grey market can also be a great introduction to economics (and something many upper level people in this field still love to talk about). Be aware that many research cannabinoids are full receptor agonists whereas many of the compounds in marijuana are partial agonists. I came out of probation expecting to smoke weed and get mega-blazed. Didn't happen because I had been smoking a UR-144 blend called Scooby snax. However, every day I went without the UR-144, the marijuana high got stronger. I think I am back to normal again. Synthetic cannabis (a misnomer) products were great for a while but frankly I am glad to be done with them. I still have one tucked in storage in case the zombie wars break out though.

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Good point been on parole to and no posotives for niods

Last edited by GeographyGeography; 12-12-2012 at 08:56.
  #8  
Old 11-12-2012, 23:31
MikePatton MikePatton is offline
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Re: Smoking synthetics while on probation

IT IS possible to detect synthetic cannabinoids in urine, but unless they specifically test for it they're not going to find it and it's not in the standard drug test. I had many friends who tested clean while smoking blends.
  #9  
Old 12-12-2012, 01:20
ak40salmon ak40salmon is offline
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Re: Smoking synthetics while on probation

well everyone, thank you for the help. My friend has decided to stop smoking synthetics just to be on the safe side. His charges are pretty serious and he faces some prison time if he violates probation. Better safe than sorry...

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THE correct attitude when faced with these consequences!
very good idea to abstain from ANY drugs that might be a violation of your probation. Gives you the time to get more info abot Cannabinoid RCs, in that time.
  #10  
Old 12-12-2012, 02:31
MikePatton MikePatton is offline
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Re: Smoking synthetics while on probation

Quote:
Originally Posted by ak40salmon View Post
well everyone, thank you for the help. My friend has decided to stop smoking synthetics just to be on the safe side. His charges are pretty serious and he faces some prison time if he violates probation. Better safe than sorry...
I highly doubt it will show up in a UA, and besides it's legal... so how does it violate your probation?
If you wanna stop that's also cool, but don't do it just because of this.

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It is NOT legal int he OP's country to consume analogs of schedule 1 substances.
Unhelpful attitude to question other people's reasons to quit. when the harm is to go into jail, then reducing it by not doing drugs is to be applauded, not to be discouraged.
  #11  
Old 12-12-2012, 08:29
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Re: Smoking synthetics while on probation

Which state do you live in? Because certain states test for synthetics....Kansas being one of them. They test for JWH 018 and 073 and HU-210. They may have added more by now as my friend has been off probation for about 4 months. Other states will be the same way.

There is no way that anyone can know how these 3rd generation cannabinoids will metabolize into your system. So it is possible (however unlikely) that you will test positive for one you didn't use because it metabolized into the same product as a previous generation.

Even if that is not the case, I know someone who tested positive for JWH-018 after smoking a blend that was labeled as no JWH's at all. There are 2 possibilities here. The first is that AM-2201 was metabolized and produced the same by-products as JWH-018 produced, or the company (cloud 9) that claimed it had no JWH actually put JWH in their blend. This is the greater possibility as the shop that he bought his stuff from was raided and Cloud 9 blends tested positive for JWH-018 and JWH-073 even though the label clearly states they don't use these.

For fuck sake be careful with this stuff, depending on what state you live in. The companies that sell this stuff are unscrupulous and will use whatever chemical they can get their hands on as there is very little chance that the legal backlash will fall back on them, but on the shop owner selling the product in the first place.

My advice is to stay sober and don't risk it for the duration of time you are on probation. If you don't test positive on this test then taper yourself off to where you're smoking every 12 hours or so and then quit cold turkey. It will be hard, but the risk is too great to continue using. There are a number of things that can go wrong and you don't want to serve time for smoking a synth blend.

I know that staying sober for a year (or 6 months or whatever it is) sucks, but you can do it. If you must switch to something else then switch to alcohol for the time being. Even though it is the only known drug (beside benzos that can have a lethal withdrawal syndrome) your probation won't last long enough for that to be the case and you can eventually go back to smoking real plant Cannabis. Which I would highly recommend over synths because they are known to be highly addictive with a very unpleasant and lengthy withdrawal syndrome.

Don't risk it bro. Just stay sober.
  #12  
Old 12-12-2012, 08:56
ak40salmon ak40salmon is offline
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Re: Smoking synthetics while on probation

Quote:
Originally Posted by travilanche View Post
Which state do you live in? Because certain states test for synthetics....Kansas being one of them. They test for JWH 018 and 073 and HU-210. They may have added more by now as my friend has been off probation for about 4 months. Other states will be the same way.

There is no way that anyone can know how these 3rd generation cannabinoids will metabolize into your system. So it is possible (however unlikely) that you will test positive for one you didn't use because it metabolized into the same product as a previous generation.

Even if that is not the case, I know someone who tested positive for JWH-018 after smoking a blend that was labeled as no JWH's at all. There are 2 possibilities here. The first is that AM-2201 was metabolized and produced the same by-products as JWH-018 produced, or the company (cloud 9) that claimed it had no JWH actually put JWH in their blend. This is the greater possibility as the shop that he bought his stuff from was raided and Cloud 9 blends tested positive for JWH-018 and JWH-073 even though the label clearly states they don't use these.

For fuck sake be careful with this stuff, depending on what state you live in. The companies that sell this stuff are unscrupulous and will use whatever chemical they can get their hands on as there is very little chance that the legal backlash will fall back on them, but on the shop owner selling the product in the first place.

My advice is to stay sober and don't risk it for the duration of time you are on probation. If you don't test positive on this test then taper yourself off to where you're smoking every 12 hours or so and then quit cold turkey. It will be hard, but the risk is too great to continue using. There are a number of things that can go wrong and you don't want to serve time for smoking a synth blend.

I know that staying sober for a year (or 6 months or whatever it is) sucks, but you can do it. If you must switch to something else then switch to alcohol for the time being. Even though it is the only known drug (beside benzos that can have a lethal withdrawal syndrome) your probation won't last long enough for that to be the case and you can eventually go back to smoking real plant Cannabis. Which I would highly recommend over synths because they are known to be highly addictive with a very unpleasant and lengthy withdrawal syndrome.

Don't risk it bro. Just stay sober.
Thanks dude, awesome reply

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  #13  
Old 12-12-2012, 23:58
MikePatton MikePatton is offline
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Re: Smoking synthetics while on probation

If any state is checking uring for synthetic cannabinoids, it is checking for the ILLEGAL ones, AKA the ones that are no longer sold in stores... If you bought it legally at a store yesterday that means it's legal, and therfore shouldn't interfere with probation...
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Old 13-12-2012, 00:03
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Re: Smoking synthetics while on probation

Did you not read the analog acts? Just because it says it is legal does not mean it is legal. Its not that simple. Just because someone is trying to get around the law and they are telling you that what they are selling you is legal it does not mean that they are right.

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please refer directly to the member wo's post you critisise. thanks.
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Old 13-12-2012, 00:22
MikePatton MikePatton is offline
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Re: Smoking synthetics while on probation

I can't say I'm familiar with every country's law but I've been hearing about the analog act here since 2003, congress was very proud of it, calling it "An end to legal highs", but Spice is still sold openly in main streets with neon signs pointing to the store. They are obviously not hiding from anyone and if they were breaking the law they would quickly be busted, trust me, they are DYING to bust them for any excuse, it's always on the news.

Also, just today Supreme Court in my country ruled in favor of a guy who was caught with 4,500 pills of MDPV and manafacturing tools such as blenders, scales, and a pill filling machine and was sent to jail. He then appealed to the supreme court and today they set him free saying "He was not technically violating drug law".

MDPV is IN the analog act and it remains legal, and as far as synthetic cannabinoids, they are very popular in scientific research these days and they are already in some medicines so you can't just ban all of them... I know some european countries made them prescription only drugs, but I don't know if that stopped it.

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Quite a bit of conjecture and assumption masquerading as 'fact' in your post here, starting off with the 'prescription only drugs' claim
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Old 13-12-2012, 01:37
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Re: Smoking synthetics while on probation

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePatton View Post
If any state is checking uring for synthetic cannabinoids, it is checking for the ILLEGAL ones, AKA the ones that are no longer sold in stores... If you bought it legally at a store yesterday that means it's legal, and therfore shouldn't interfere with probation...
It's not that simple. I mentioned earlier that someone I know tested positive for JWH-018 during the 2nd generation of blends last year. So the company either used an illegal cannabinoid in their blends, or the legal compound produced the same by-product in the body as JWH-018 does.

So this is a risky game to play. You never know what you're putting in your body. This market is unregulated and the vendors are unscrupulous. They are just trying to make as much money as they can while the gravy train lasts.
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Old 13-12-2012, 04:40
snarkymalarky snarkymalarky is offline
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Re: Smoking synthetics while on probation

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePatton View Post
I can't say I'm familiar with every country's law but I've been hearing about the analog act here since 2003, congress was very proud of it, calling it "An end to legal highs", but Spice is still sold openly in main streets with neon signs pointing to the store. They are obviously not hiding from anyone and if they were breaking the law they would quickly be busted, trust me, they are DYING to bust them for any excuse, it's always on the news.

Also, just today Supreme Court in my country ruled in favor of a guy who was caught with 4,500 pills of MDPV and manafacturing tools such as blenders, scales, and a pill filling machine and was sent to jail. He then appealed to the supreme court and today they set him free saying "He was not technically violating drug law".

MDPV is IN the analog act and it remains legal, and as far as synthetic cannabinoids, they are very popular in scientific research these days and they are already in some medicines so you can't just ban all of them... I know some european countries made them prescription only drugs, but I don't know if that stopped it.
You are forgetting a key difference. The analog act applies to human consumption. Stores get away with selling blends because they supposedly aren't for human consumption. Once someone actually consumes the blend, as verified by lab tests, they are no longer immune from the analog act. Big difference between selling it "not for human consumption" and then being a human who consumes.

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Good point as to the analog act
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Old 13-12-2012, 19:00
TheBigBadWolf TheBigBadWolf is nu online
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Re: Smoking synthetics while on probation

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePatton View Post

MDPV is IN the analog act and it remains legal, and as far as synthetic cannabinoids, they are very popular in scientific research these days and they are already in some medicines so you can't just ban all of them... I know some european countries made them prescription only drugs, but I don't know if that stopped it.
To which Eoropean countires do you refer?
Could you please get some sources for the assumptions you spread? I'm sure I would have at least heard of this, but it's completely new to me that anywhere in the world sybnthetical cannbinoids were turned into prescription drugs.

Furtheron, you have a flawed thibking vs: legality.
I myself use and posses drugs that are controlled substances in my country. You would have a big time of a trouble if you were caught with these.

For me its perfectly legal to own and use them. Not because I'm standing beyond the law, but because I have them prescribed by my doctor. In my country.
Would I try to import that substance ( which is methadone, before someone asks) into a country neighboring the EU, as there were Turkey, Russia or Belorussia I would have to face the biggest problems, because in these countries this controlled substance is not prescribable by law and so no one at all is allowed to take, produce, possess etc. it.

What your countries facts are, in respect of legality, is one thing, the questions of the OP were posed in reference to HIS homecountry.

I hope you get these differences and are okay with taking a little hint from me: Be sure you post on topic and be sure that its not only you who finds your posting interesting and helpful by checking back what you wrote to the original title of the thread.

Thanks.
BBW
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Old 13-12-2012, 20:29
MikePatton MikePatton is offline
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Re: Smoking synthetics while on probation

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBigBadWolf View Post
To which Eoropean countires do you refer?
Could you please get some sources for the assumptions you spread? I'm sure I would have at least heard of this, but it's completely new to me that anywhere in the world sybnthetical cannbinoids were turned into prescription drugs.

Furtheron, you have a flawed thibking vs: legality.
I myself use and posses drugs that are controlled substances in my country. You would have a big time of a trouble if you were caught with these.

For me its perfectly legal to own and use them. Not because I'm standing beyond the law, but because I have them prescribed by my doctor. In my country.
Would I try to import that substance ( which is methadone, before someone asks) into a country neighboring the EU, as there were Turkey, Russia or Belorussia I would have to face the biggest problems, because in these countries this controlled substance is not prescribable by law and so no one at all is allowed to take, produce, possess etc. it.

What your countries facts are, in respect of legality, is one thing, the questions of the OP were posed in reference to HIS homecountry.

I hope you get these differences and are okay with taking a little hint from me: Be sure you post on topic and be sure that its not only you who finds your posting interesting and helpful by checking back what you wrote to the original title of the thread.

Thanks.
BBW
From Wikipedia:
"Spice blends are classified as a medicine in Finland, and, therefore, it is illegal to order them without a prescription. In practice, it is not possible to get a prescription."

A much better source though, is this:
http://www.uniklinik-freiburg.de/rec...ence/d103b.pdf
As you can see most synthetic cannabinoids are controlled by medicine law, not narcotics law, but I guess I can't say for sure unless someone from Finland verifies it... As for the rest of your post, I get your point, I guess I shouldn't jump to conclusions regarding other countries, specifically ones I do not frequent. I am merely trying to supply whatever info I know, or think I know, that might be a little helpful, and I'm always open to corrections when I'm wrong.

Quote:
You are forgetting a key difference. The analog act applies to human consumption. Stores get away with selling blends because they supposedly aren't for human consumption. Once someone actually consumes the blend, as verified by lab tests, they are no longer immune from the analog act. Big difference between selling it "not for human consumption" and then being a human who consumes.
From the White House:
"Synthetic marijuana (often known as “K2” or “Spice”) and bath salts products are often sold in legal retail outlets as “herbal incense” and “plant food,” respectively, and labeled “not for human consumption” to mask their intended purpose and avoid FDA regulatory oversight of the manufacturing process.

As far as I know, THAT is the purpose of the "Not for human consumption" label. If you have other info about what you wrote please post it, because I am having a hard time understanding how manafacturing and selling is legal but consumption isn't, it sounds very surreal in terms of law as it is pretty obvious nobody uses the stuff to make a room smell nice.
  #20  
Old 13-12-2012, 20:52
TheBigBadWolf TheBigBadWolf is nu online
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Re: Smoking synthetics while on probation

MikePatton,
Thank you very much for the addition of Source from Finland.

I dont want to draw this thread much further Off Topic, so let me say only one sentence:

That these substances are controlled substances, under narcotics or medicine law, and that they aren't available anyway because there's no legal producers ( aka pharma industry) is in no way helpful to this thread; it only shows the flawed thinking of those who invent these laws; the only country in the world, AFAIK, that has made ANY movements towards controlling these substances and so possibly save customers from badly produced or toxical stuff, is New Zealand.

Controlling does not mean outlawing.

Again excuses for this off topic post to the readers.

BBW
  #21  
Old 09-01-2013, 06:18
roadrunnericu roadrunnericu is offline
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Re: Smoking synthetics while on probation

are ANY of them even still being sold in American head shops? Seems like they have all disappeared?
  #22  
Old 09-01-2013, 06:45
Sgmfrd Sgmfrd is offline
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Re: Smoking synthetics while on probation

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunnericu View Post
are ANY of them even still being sold in American head shops? Seems like they have all disappeared?
If you mean cannabinoids there are plenty online headshops atleast. Or did you mean drug tests for home use?
  #23  
Old 09-01-2013, 10:10
DOG-CHOPPER DOG-CHOPPER is offline
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Re: Smoking synthetics while on probation

Cannabinoids occasionally are tested for by parole officers until the recent bans.

The old boy loves his noids and is on parole and was asked if he had taken or smoked noids by his parole officer.

I told him yes of course i have.

He went onto say it was drug abuse.

I told him that i was not abusing any substances and that i took it to relieve depression and head aches so its not abuse its medicinal use of a substance not an illegal drug.

He then asked who told you about this ?

I said one of the parole officers told me outside having a smoke a phew months ago.

He shook his head in disbelief.

You can be breached for taking panadol without a medical reason eg head ache sore back etc as without an excuse its abuse and you can be breached yes breached for non prescription meds.

Just make absolutely sure the stuff you take is legal.
  #24  
Old 09-01-2013, 10:42
carter 1203 carter 1203 is offline
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Re: Smoking synthetics while on probation

In my county here in Florida they were purportedly banned. It seems true because they no longer display the packages at mini-marts or gas stations. I don't know about headshops but assuming if the label says: "Not for human comsumption" then the analog act doesn't apply.
  #25  
Old 09-01-2013, 16:49
Sgmfrd Sgmfrd is offline
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Re: Smoking synthetics while on probation

Quote:
Originally Posted by carter 1203 View Post
In my county here in Florida they were purportedly banned. It seems true because they no longer display the packages at mini-marts or gas stations. I don't know about headshops but assuming if the label says: "Not for human comsumption" then the analog act doesn't apply.
Doesn't make sense. "Not for human comsumption" warning has been there for ages,on basically every blend since 2007. I don't warning only can make illegal substance legal.

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