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  #1  
Old 27-11-2012, 19:36
tomotd11562 tomotd11562 is offline
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A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

I have always wanted to share this


I started using adderall (adhd) back in january and found it incredibly euphoric though it did seam to make me allot more shy. I occasionally abused the adderall at doses of 100+mg and found it euphoric but yet there is always one thing about that high that bothers me: its that you always end up getting sidetracked no matter what and realizing it only like after 10 hours , and never really have the fun you could have. I wondered if meth would be any better,but found it just felt like super adderall, allot more in the mind though and extremely addictive, I didn't find myself unable to sit back and relax that probably has do do with the dextrorotation and levorotation ratio differences.

Fast forward a few months and I had a gym buddy of mine going crazy at the gym, I though he came in there on MDMA, he's usually an ass about some things but that day he was out of normal, he was very loving of everybody around him, I was unable to complete my workout because he kept wanting to talk about his life goals to me. I asked him if he was on drugs and he said no, Its just that he had gotten a new energy powder fda approved and all but people where saying it was tainted with some unknown amphetamine analogue.


I did some research and found and quickly was surprised to find people comparing it to meth.I was convinced by some of the things people said and bought it.

(keep in mind ive been off adderall for 2 weeks at this point feeling pretty shitty)I received it couple days later. Opened up and and mixed 4 scoops into 32oz of water.. Instruction warns do not exceed 2 scoops in 24 hours. I took 4 scoops because of my past stimulant use i though it would be ok. Little did I know that was going to be life changing. I was sitting at my computer, and then once it hit me it was incredible, I jumped up and starting crying from joy, Running around like a crazy from all the energy and pure happiness. With every breath I would get this incredible tingly feeling. I decided to take 3 more scoops and never really ended up going to the gym, instead I ended up doing like 20 things that I actually deep down enjoyed and not ocd cleaning my place. I was pure euphoric for 15 hours, and then incredibly happy for next 3 days YES 3 days of not a single depressing though just off those 6 scoops 4 days ago,. I didn't sleep first 2 nights, 2 hours next night at this point I was feeling dragged down yet still in a damn good mood. I't took me 8 days until my normal sleep patterns, normal hunger and depression to come back, This actually happened like in the begging of the year yet i remember the day so clearly. I remember allot of physical symptoms I experienced where meth but stronger. I could't make my mouth produce saliva at all on the 3 day when I finally got hungry, Had to eat pour water on food to moisten it. I was clenching my jaw for hours, pupils full dilated for 2 days and then semi dilated for week. cold blue feet and arms you get the story

Here is the thing,This high was a one time thing, Next time i took it i was excepting something close, yet all I got was a headache and extreme paranoia/anxiety. I spent the next 2 months chasing this high with so much Adderrall and meth and never came even close, I still felt great from those amphetamines but nothing on that level. It felt 5 times stronger then meth yet without any of that anxiety,paranoia, ocd, constant worrying, shaking. Yet It only worked just once. This drink sent my adderall tolerance off the roof, I was unable to treat my adhd anymore. I ended up needing like 100mg to feel what 40mg would do before.


Can anybody here with a deep chemistry background explain any of this from this ingredients list.
I myself have been researching the list and found some connection, the compounds seem to work together but I am no chemist. Any insight would be appreciated.


Creatine Monohydrate, Trimethylglycine , L-Citrulline, Dendrobex™ (Dendrobium Extract) (Stem) (Concentrated For Alkaloid Content Including Dendrobine, Dendroxine, Dendramine, B-Phenylethylamine, N,N-Dimethyl-B-Phenylethylamine, And N,N-Diethyl-B-Phenylethylamine), B-Phenylethylamine HCl, Citramine™ (Citrus Reticulata Extract) (Fruit) (Concentrated For N-Methyltyramine Content), Caffeine Anhydrous

Post Quality Evaluations:
Drug price discussion is against the forum rules.
Good job bringing this to everyones attention.

Last edited by Phenoxide; 02-04-2013 at 23:00. Reason: prices omitted
  #2  
Old 27-11-2012, 21:25
Basoodler Basoodler is offline
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Re: A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

Quote:
, B-Phenylethylamine, N,N-Dimethyl-B-Phenylethylamince, And N,N-Diethyl-B-Phenylethylamine), B-Phenylethylamine HCl,
Phenethylamine -
similar to amphetamine in its action, releases norepinephrine and dopamine When taken orally, though, it is rapidly metabolized

I would guess that one could mess around with substitutions and make something a long the lines of Amphetamine/Phen psycopstimulant . Then again I don't know shit about chemistry

so these may be something ---> N,N-Dimethyl-B-Phenylethylamince, And N,N-Diethyl-B-Phenylethylamine

I mean it could be a simple stimulant, or Mao-b could destroy it. not sure what the deal is with Phenylethylamince? it is spelled like that in a few of these new supplements.

lets look at this Dendrobium stuff first factiod is its a species of orchid.
Quote:
Some Dendrobium species are grown as medical plants. The Noble Dendrobium (D. nobile) for example is one of the 50 fundamental herbs used in traditional Chinese medicine, where it is known as shí hú (石斛) or shí hú lán (石斛兰).
which led me to a species "Noble Dendrobium (D. nobile)" or shí hú lán
Quote:
Extract of the stems of Dendrobium nobile yielded 17 phenanthrenes. There have been many studies on the complex chemistry of the plant

I did find a wealth of studies on PubMed.. most are in Chinese and have no abstracts.. I will however keep looking to see what I can find .. I like little research missions .

I will add info here when I find it:

A peer reviewed document about isolating the alkaloids listed above. shows chemical structure
http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/att...1&d=1354053138
maybe a chemistry person can decipher it

its being touted as a DMAA replacement by a few supplement companies I assume the Dendrobine, Dendroxine, and Dendramine are alkaloids.



Quote:
Dendrobine, C16H25O2N, has a slight but demonstrable analgesic and antipyretic action—much weaker than that of amidopyrine. It produces moderate hyperglycemia, diminishes cardiac activity in large doses, lowers the blood pressure, suppresses the respiration, inhibits isolated rabbits' intestines, and contracts isolated guinea pigs' uteri.
The minimal lethal dose determined by intravenous injection in white mice and rats is 20 mgm. per kilogram, that in guinea pigs 22 mgm., and that in rabbits 17 mgm. per kilogram. Death is preceded by convulsions.
The convulsions caused by dendrobine appear to be central in origin—probably due to the stimulating action on both the medulla and the spinal cord. Sodium amytal has a detoxifying effect on dendrobine.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Alkaloids.pdf (189.0 KB, 20 views)

Last edited by Basoodler; 27-11-2012 at 21:53.
  #3  
Old 27-11-2012, 21:38
St Dismas Novitiate St Dismas Novitiate is offline
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Re: A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

What was the name of the "energy drink?" Had you used any chemicals prior to this episode?
  #4  
Old 27-11-2012, 22:15
Basoodler Basoodler is offline
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Re: A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

Quote:
Originally Posted by toxinreleased View Post
What was the name of the "energy drink?" Had you used any chemicals prior to this episode?

I think he means CRAZE.

The prop blend matches exactly.

There are other reports that sounds just like his on other sites. So there is probably some merit to it.. I'd guess

It could also be a farce to hide a obscure RC additive.


Now that I think about it, I am starting to suspect that the OP is trying to sell some "Craze" powder.

The information on the product is just enough to raise suspicion. For example I could find the PDF documenting that those alkaloids actually exist. The webpage for crazy cites "many reports".. yeh well they exist on pub med... they are all in Chinese and have no abstracts.

Then you have the issue with those pesky molecules N,N-Dimethyl-B-Phenylethylamince and N,N-Diethyl-B-Phenylethylamine they claim from the orchids too. whelp I can find no proof in the documentation available.

I also found a website questioning the validity of the claims

Quote:
Questions about the chemistry of dendrobium extract


On the label of the Craze product, a number of chemicals are listed as being part of Dendrobex, Driven Sports’ branded dendrobium extract. These include dendrobine, dendroxine, dendromine and three variations of phenylethylamines. It’s these last three that give some industry experts pause.

“Show me the paper that states that the phenylethylamines are there in any amounts (in dendrobium) beyond a hundreth of a percent,” said Anthony Almada, CEO of Genr8 and an expert on adulteration issues. “The obligation is for them to show from an independent lab that all the things in there are actually from the orchid,” Almada said. “I have not seen any literature that describes PEAs (phenylethylamines) occurring in dendrobium. I have done a pretty deep search back to the 1920s.”

James Neal-Kababick, director of Oregon-based Flora Research Laboratories, has been testing dendrobium extracts recently (not the Dendrobex ingredient from Driven Sports).

“When we started looking at markers [to use in the tests], the dendrobine alkaloids are reported, and Lilly actually researched these back in 1935, so they have a long history,” he said.

“But when you look at what’s on the market today, the products are being standardized to B-phenylethylamines,” Neal-Kababick said. He added that when he ran phytoforensic tests on the dendrobium extracts he had in his lab, “we found hits for B-phenylethylamines that appeared to be pharmaceuticals.”

“There are papers on the alkaloid composition of dendrobium and there are quite a few alkaloids that are indentified there. Dendrobine is one of them,” Neal-Kababick said. “I have not been able to find that the phenylethylamines are native to dendrobium."
Which raises the question of what is actually in the shit.. leftover DMAA? and RC or stimulant B-phenylethylamines that are either from the plant or pharmaceutical...

Seems like a set up to me.. Probably has a banned active.. or an inert shit supplement that is being aggressively marketed using a plant extract that has just enough information to make it interesting

If these plants had that strong of cns stimulant activity.. it would have a lot more documentation than a mention that it was used in ancient china. And people would know about it

Sorry in advance to the OP if his question was legit
Attached Images
File Type: png 19.png (41.9 KB, 1099 views)

Last edited by Basoodler; 27-11-2012 at 22:57.
  #5  
Old 27-11-2012, 22:56
tomotd11562 tomotd11562 is offline
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Re: A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basoodler View Post
I think he means CRAZE.

The prop blend matches exactly.

There are other reports that sounds just like his on other sites. So there is probably some merit to it.. I'd guess

It could also be a farce to hide a obscure RC additive.
There was a huge topic about how people said they changed formula. Probably removing the illegal additive, I just been looking at the other forums

Just a bunch of posts like this

"Lol.. got a great story for this one. This is THE only pre workout to tweak me the fuck out.
Took a serving as directed, got a couple miles away from my gym before I noticed the crazy focus. I don't think I blinked the time I felt it to my arrival to the gym. Parked my car, got my ipod set up, and finished texting (my head was down the whole time) I guess it really kicked in during that time. I looked up, got crazy anxiety and was scared being in my own car, like I felt claustrophobic and one of my eyes started tearing up. After I go to the bathroom, I had THE best workout I have ever had (next to vasotropin)

"To this day I don't know how I feel about
I PERSONALLY believe its f****** adderall, coke, and a little bit of meth for starters....oh did i mention adderall????????"


It would be amazing to knows the true pharmacology behind this "supplement".

Because this stuff gives more motivation then meth. I felt like Unlike meth i actually was able to accomplish some of my motivational thought instead of just thinking about them until it wears off.
  #6  
Old 27-11-2012, 23:48
Basoodler Basoodler is offline
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Re: A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

^I found some documentation that further our active is NOT orchid extract.

From pubmed
The use of orchids in Chinese medicine
Christopher J Bulpitt et el

Quote:
Shi-Hu is considered an important herb for replenishing yin (coldness, moistness etc.) and is commonly used in Chinese medicine. Five Dendrobium species are included in the Chinese pharmacopoeia. They are assumed to be effective in some diseases or syndromes related to the deficiency of yin in the kidney, lung and stomach—such as thirst, fever, red tongue, faucitis, atrophic gastritis and diabetes.7 Experimental studies showed that Shi-Hu could promote the secretion of acid in the stomach. A prepared Dendrobium compound decreases the level of blood glucose, promotes the secretion of insulin and increases insulin sensitivity in diabetic rat models and patients.8,9 Shi-Hu is also a main substance in the Shi-Hu Ye Guang Wan, a preparation for cataracts, poor sight and other eye problems.10 Recent studies show that the alkaloids in the Dendrobium species, such as dendrobine, are a weak anti-pyretic and analgesic and it has been suggested that these preparations may increase immunity, decrease the oxidant stress in aging and have anti-cancer activity. Thus, Shi-Hu has also been recently used in the treatment of stomach and lung cancer.7 Nevertheless, proof of efficacy and safety are lacking and a recent review of eye treatments concluded that ‘the available evidence does not support the use of herbal medicines for any of these ocular diseases’.11
Check Dendrobine off the list of possible stimulants :P

Quote:
We have described the uses of orchids in Chinese medicine and these are presented in Tables ​Tables11 and ​and2.



2. Despite the lack of randomized trials, the alkaloids in orchids may have biological actions. Clinical research in man does support dendrobine as a weak anti-pyretic and analgesic. Two medicinal preparations may lower blood sugar and two may lower blood pressure (those containing gastrodin and colchicine). As Bai-Ji is a haemostatic powerful enough to necrotize tumours, this agent has obvious therapeutic use.22,23
A weakness of our conclusions is that Chinese herbal medicines do not have the rigorous characterization and standardization necessary for clinical study.32 Indeed one product of Tian Ma includes eight other non orchid preparations and is blended according to the Yuen Dynasty Herbal Therapy formulation.33 Nevertheless, animal experiments (Table 3) support the concept that the active ingredients may have both therapeutic and toxic effects
Full document --> http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/att...1&d=1354059960

I don't know.. maybe science and history missed something in the stems of these flowers that is a stimulant lol :P


N,N-Dimethyl-B-Phenylethylamince and N,N-Diethyl-B-Phenylethylamine still stand out to me.. and could be the stim..

I just noticed something Citrus Reticulata Extract = synephrine = a basic stim (not real strong)

then you have another trademarked blend called Citramine which says it contains N-methyltyramin

N-methyltyramin is an alkaloid found in low concentration. its the N-methyl of tyramine,
its at least a weak stimulant.

it also contains Naringenin (per the information provided by the manufacturer)
not sure what this does to help lol
Quote:
Naringenin found in grapefruit juice has been shown to have an inhibitory effect on the human cytochrome P450 isoform CYP1A2, which can change pharmacokinetics in a human (or orthologous) host of several popular drugs in an adverse manner, even resulting in carcinogens of otherwise harmless substances.[2]

The you have a class action lawsuit Filed in march of 2012.. For this very product!.. its full of fun stuff to add to the speculation. amongst one that claims the product contains AMPHETAMINES

here is a link to a detailed article (it wont let me copy and paste due to copyright )
http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/...A-class-action

read it here ----> http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/att...1&d=1354062294



Post Quality Evaluations:
Outstanding investigative research work. Great contributions to this thread.
Great research pulling apaprt a scam product!
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Traditional.pdf (292.2 KB, 7 views)
File Type: pdf Craze.pdf (719.4 KB, 23 views)

Last edited by Basoodler; 28-11-2012 at 00:28.
  #7  
Old 28-11-2012, 00:41
JTC3889 JTC3889 is offline
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Re: A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

There's a very strong possibility that there are some unlisted ingredients, as that is commonplace for manufacturers to put in various stims in them. One common one is sibutramine. Another is DMAA heres an article to it http://drugfreesportrec.blogspot.com...amylamine.html
  #8  
Old 28-11-2012, 01:47
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Re: A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

Yea that would be my guess. Judging by some of the reports, they had that stuff juiced up for a while... why sell a hard core stim and a preworkout supplement? weird..

I guess they seem to be in some trouble for it.

anyway the parent company driven sports LLC is accumulating lawsuits for craze

The Tawnsaura Group, LLC v. Driven Sports, Inc x2 for patent infringement on L-citrulline and the wording on the patent

the thing that is bothering me is the fact there is a "N,N-Dimethyl-B-Phenylethylamince", And a "N,N-Diethyl-B-Phenylethylamine". At first I thought Phenylethylamince was probably a typo.. but if it were a typo that doesn't explain why the same "N,N-Diethyl-B-Phenylethylamine" is listed twice.. So it might be a correct spelling.. but what the fuck changes the nomenclature to Phenylethylamince? They use Phenylethylamince on all varieties of craze that I have seen, the web page and advertisements (even on multiple lawsuits.. I know what an amine is .. never seen a amicce.. could they have used that nomenclature for another chemical just to throw people off?


Quote:
Another example would be between methamphetamine and n,n’- dimethylphenethylamine (DMPEA, a widely-used industrial chemical, used as a flavoring agent). These two chemicals are isobaric ions of each other, both have exactly the same molecular mass (149.0 m/z), but are slightly different in chemical structure. Fortunately, under CID LC-ESI MS/MS conditions, these two chemicals form unique predominant product ions, 119 m/z (M+H–CH 3NH 2)+, and 105 m/z (M+H-N(CH 3)2 )+. However, both compounds also form 91 m/z as a secondary product ion (M+H-CH-N- (CH 3)2 )+. If a researcher chose to monitor mass 91 m/z, instead of 119 m/z, for methamphetamine (and there are those who have reported doing so in the literature) then a false positive for methamphetamine could occur
On the frontier: Analytical chemistry and the occurrence of illicit drugs in surface waters 1 in the USA: United States Environmental Protection Agency, Office of Research and Development

n,n'-DMPEA seems to be an industrial flavoring agent (odd) and it also is a isobaric compound to meth? So when they do a chemical analysis it will test hot for meth unless they don't test it at a specific level? That is not improving the odds that this will go well for driven sports in their lawsuit.. they are looking specifically for amphetamine.. is there a chance that n,n'-DMPEA would test hot for DMamphetamine just by being so similar?

Last edited by Basoodler; 28-11-2012 at 05:48.
  #9  
Old 28-11-2012, 04:02
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Re: A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

Great info Bassoodler, I would be really interested to hear what the true ingredient list is.
  #10  
Old 28-11-2012, 16:05
Basoodler Basoodler is offline
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Re: A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

Clarification from driven from another forum (or lack of clarification)

The only reason I am looking into this is there is apparently something in it that is new or hidden. There are gobs of reports.. hell its a big seller and is winning supplement awards. In other words curiosity got the best of me

Copy and paste from another forum. The Driven sports reps are quoted in purple text and the non reps are green, just to make it easier to read.

I almost felt bad for the 2 Driven sports guys while reading this lol.. reps were Driven Sports Andy[@]xxxDS.com and Matt Cahill




Quote:

__________________________________________________ ________________________________



Dendrobium contains PEA? --> evidence?

The PEA in Craze is PEA-HCl. It's listed on the label. (Andy)


According to the label, the PEA in Craze is derived from dendrobium, yet there is no current literature supporting that notion.

There is supporting literature
Its proprietary information / trade secrets and it will remain such.

Well you may not want the information revealed however, [unless DS had a botanical identification/quantification assay performed themselves] the aforementioned data is by no means 'proprietary' or 'trade secret' information.

It is until someone else finds it and posts it.


and the label states that the PEA in craze is derived from dendrobium

Thats incorrect, it clearly states phenylethylamine hcl. (MC)



It clearly states.... "(Dendrobium Extract - Concentrated For Alkaloid Content Including B-Phenylethylamine, N,N-Dimethyl-B-Phenylethylamine, And N,N-Diethyl-B-Phenylethylamine),B-Phenylethylamine HCl"

Seriously, if any of this was clear.... I would not have made the thread.


fixed and very clear. (he bolded the B-Phenylethylamine HCl in the above quote)


No. Let's try this again.....
note the parentheses --> (Dendrobium Extract - Concentrated For: insert PEA analogues here) <-- end parentheses

The label [clearly] shows the PEA analogues as being a constituent of dendrobium, and even states "concentrated for alkaloid content". --> Then b-PEA HCL is listed a second time, after the dendrobium constituents.


Then you should have been more clear and said pea analogues. There is a difference between b-phenethylamine and the other 1,000+ analogues in the PEA family. Regardless, I answered this above.

The acacia var. has a chemical makeup that could explain the presence of PEA. Dendrobium is yet to be shown to conatain PEAs as claimed (it looks as it has mainly glycosides and lactones)

DS could have interest in masking the ingredient list to avoid copies? Purely speculation.

Or its exactly what I said which is DS has information which it believes is proprietary and therefor is not going to provide it to its competition. Craze is accurately labeled.

That's what I meant.....Figured u would say oh it's prop material annnndddddd it's accurately labeled per FDA guidelines. I've heard that a lot lately

We backed ours up with independent lab tests when appropriate. Havent seen anyone else do that.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
(andy)
You asked me specifically about phenethylamine, which is part of Craze as PEA-HCl. If you'd like to be more specific, then be more specific. Our extracts are referenced and tested properly and extensively and this editorial/interview you're referencing does little to elucidate much of anything sans speculation.


(matt)
There is supporting literature and there is no way that Ill be providing it or other compliance info on an open forum to be used by competitors. Its proprietary information / trade secrets and it will remain such.



You asked me specifically about phenethylamine


Yes.


which is part of Craze as PEA-HCl.


and the label states that the PEA in craze is derived from dendrobium


If you'd like to be more specific, then be more specific.


How much more specific can I get? --> Label states it's from dendrobium, and I have yet to find any evidence supporting that notion


Our extracts are referenced and tested properly and extensively


What does DS's analytical procedures have to do with this thread?
and this editorial/interview you're referencing does little to elucidate much of anything


It's unpublished dendrobium comments from an accredited researcher demonstrating my aforementioned point. What data might you have that will elucidate the lack of evidence suggesting that PEA is found in dendrobium?
-------

Thanks again. I've done some extensive digging but to no avail, at least now I know there's something to look for.


It wasnt found on the internet if that is where your extensive digging is being done.


Well you may not want the information revealed however, [unless DS had a botanical identification/quantification assay performed themselves] the aforementioned data is by no means 'proprietary' or 'trade secret' information.

We have 3rd party independent lab tests on all ingredients for identification as is required by GMP.



-----------------------------------------------


In regards to dendramine, is there any data showing it does anything good at all?

protect the retina and improve eye sight


I couldn't find a single use other then that one of those dilates blood vessels but in turn causues convulsions and is a taurine and beta alanine antagonist.
No hate, just curiosity

"Dendrobium alkaloids have protective effects against neuronal damage and we confirmed the hypothesis in the present study. This is one of the first studies to investigate the effects of Dendrobium alkaloids on neuronal damage in the presence of OGD/RP. The system of cortical neuron cultures subjected to OGD/RP was used as a model of ischemic cerebrovascular disease, as described previously (Gifford et al., 1993), Dendrobium alkaloids were administrated at different concentrations in order to evaluate the protective role of Dendrobium alkaloids in OGD/RP damaged neurons."
The convulsions were from high doses of pure dendramine IIRC.


That study was performed on rats with oxygen-glucose deprivation and reperfusion. Induced damage essentially. Is there any data backing its effects on healthy users in vivo?

I dont believe dendramine has been studied alone in humans. In the dendramine study you are talking about with regards to convulsions, what was the dose used and what was it studied in?


Rats and rabbits iirc, hold on, updating as I find it, Yea, here it is. Very high dose.
So since neither directly attribute to healthy human consumption, is it a safe assumption that there is no proof it actually has any benefit for the formula?


That study is about dendrobine not dendramine


Bingo. Because there are none, so, is it a safe assumption that there is no proof it actually has any benefit for the formula?
Also, the abstract you referenced never stated which alkaloids proposed such benefits. So it tends to go in the scrap pile just as mine has been tossed

Just because there are no studies on it doesnt mean it doesnt or wouldnt do something. It just means no one has studied it yet.
Regardless we arent using just dendramine or a high extract for dendramine. There are hundreds of constituents in Dendrobium that dont have studies done on them, just like every other plant. We are using Dendrobium and that does provide a benefit to the formula which is why its in Craze


Well if you have literature that proves PEA is native to dendrobium, then why are you being so secretive about it? Why not present it? You're not protecting any 'proprietary' information, as PEA is a common compound & readily available, so what gives?

No Hype Ive already told you why Im not releasing it. It is proprietary information. There is no reason for us to present it. We dont formulate for free. Its not DS's job to help our competitors gain any insight with regards to the documentation, research or tests we compile for our products.

We dont spend hundreds upon hundreds of hours looking for something just to post it up here because you ask for it. Since you are so interested in it, put the time in to find it yourself. Then you can post it anywhere you want.


I realize this.... I'm just trying to figure out why, as your previous response does not add up.
It's friggin' PEA.
rofl
You wouldn't be helping your competitors gain any "insight", all of them already have access to PEA.

It does add up, you just dont like the answer. Im not releasing it. Go find it for yourself.
Thats hysterical. You must think that these types of documents would only have 5 words on it, "PEA is found in Dendrobium."


That tends to be just as credible as me stating "Mega-Dosing apple skin yields anabolic responses similar to AAS usage." There are no studies, but that does not mean it will or will not do what I said. No studies means no proof.
If I am not mistaken, your product uses specific alkaloids, but not all DNLA, correct?

No because with that statement you are making a claim that it does something. In the previous statement you are saying that since there are no studies it must not do anything and it may not. Has someone claimed that dendramine would?
There arent studies on all types of ingredients, plants, compounds, extracts etc. It doesnt mean they all dont work. It just means no one has studied them yet. No claim being made, just that no one has studied them specifically to see if a claim could be made.
Our product uses 2 specific plant extracts and PEA HCL, besides the rest of the formula

But it does not contain all the alkaloids, correct?


It contains 2 plant extracts. The only way to know if the extracts contain all of the alkaloids is to know all of the alkaloids found in each plant (have yet to see a study that shows exactly what every single constituent is in both plants) and you would have to test for the presence of all constituents in each plant. Since there are hundreds of constituents, at $300-2000 per test. That would need to be done on every single batch of every single product run. I have no interest in trying to find a specific compound in either plant. The formula works great using the whole plant extracts and that is what we will continue to use.


It was tested for certain alkaloids, as the label insinuates, but we are unsure of which ones are actively having positive effects that users seek?

Simple reductive logic insists that if the product didn't work, it wouldn't sell. Words are weighed on results.
Just as an aside, here's a brilliantly concise excerpt from Bill Bryson's A Short History of Nearly Everything, which may afford you some perspective on how thinly humans have researched phytochemicals ca. 2002:

It's not scientifically feasible to isolate variables so meticulously. We conducted our product development in a controlled environment with safety and performance enhancement in mind. We've tried hundreds of extracts from hundreds of different plants, and we didn't release Craze until we found something extraordinary.


That was in regards to dendramine alone, where as there is no proof of any positive effects.

And the study posted about "dendramine having positive effects on retinas and improving eyesight" was disproven, the study stated "alkaloids", not once was it specified which alkaloids from Dendrobium.
So right now we are running off.......assumptions?
No disrespect to Matt, or you Andy, these are just questions Ive had bottled up for a while.


No disrespect taken, but it seems your only satisfaction grounds itself in clinical research that doesn't exist


The same place your proof does.


We did a better job at finding a revolutionary, DSHEA compliant, GRAS performance enhancement blend before anyone else, including pharmaceutical companies and academic researchers. The proof you request is still chasing our shadow



-------------------------------------------

Craze is accurately labeled
.

So why is b-phenylethylamine listed as a constituent of dendrobium, then listed a second time as HCL?
It would only make sense that your PEA is of one source.

(andy)
Because it is in our extract. There are over a thousand known species of dendrobium... do you believe we just tossed in a bunch of synthetic PEA metabolites and threw a dart at a wall of species? The R&D process at Driven isn't hello kitty I'm a real chemist.

(matt)
Unless we wanted more pea hcl but didnt want more dendrobex.

So then why go through the hassle of isolating b-phenylethylamine from dendrobium... when b-phenylethylamine HCL is already in the formula?

(andy)
Because additional PEA improved the formula's performance more than additional dendrobex

(matt)
What Pinch said as well as no one has ever said nor does our product label claim that we are isolating for b-pea in dendrobium. Its an extract for amine content of which b-pea is one. We wanted more pea but not more dendrobex so we used pea hcl.

ok.... so the next logical step would be to use PEA-HCL, and not bother wasting money/time isolating PEA for dendrobex.
Nonetheless, I just wanted this PEA/dendrobium issue clarified. Guess I'll have to wait until the aforementioned data surfaces.

no one has ever said nor does our product label claim that we are isolating for b-pea in dendrobium. Its an extract for amine content of which b-pea is one. We wanted more pea but not more dendrobex so we used pea hcl.


Thanks again. I just wanted to clarify the fact that it was Andy's response to my question that spurred this thread. In his response, he aluded to the notion that the PEA found in craze, was HCL [which is only partly true]. That comment led me to the impression that DS's stance might be that the PEA in craze was [not] attributed to the dendrobium content.





this Thread should be moved to nootropics.. The users questioning it claim the side effects are More a long the lines of something like sulbutamine .. increased mental focus.. and we have some questions about a couple unknown B-phen analogs.. or some unnamed alkaloid

Could the N,N'-B-DmPEA be psychoactive? or the N,N'-B-Phenylethylamince (which may be the most well documented typo in history). it just seems like the reps did everything possible to avoid talking about the B-Phenylethylamine analogs or their origin..

Last edited by Basoodler; 28-11-2012 at 18:18.
  #11  
Old 29-11-2012, 12:32
tomotd11562 tomotd11562 is offline
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Re: A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basoodler View Post
Clarification from driven from another forum (or lack of clarification)

The only reason I am looking into this is there is apparently something in it that is new or hidden. There are gobs of reports.. hell its a big seller and is winning supplement awards. In other words curiosity got the best of me

Copy and paste from another forum. The Driven sports reps are quoted in purple text and the non reps are green, just to make it easier to read.

I almost felt bad for the 2 Driven sports guys while reading this lol.. reps were Driven Sports Andy and Matt Cahill

this Thread should be moved to nootropics.. The users questioning it claim the side effects are More a long the lines of something like sulbutamine .. increased mental focus.. and we have some questions about a couple unknown B-phen analogs.. or some unnamed alkaloid

Could the N,N'-B-DmPEA be psychoactive? or the N,N'-B-Phenylethylamince (which may be the most well documented typo in history). it just seems like the reps did everything possible to avoid talking about the B-Phenylethylamine analogs or their origin..
I don't think its just "increased mental focus", Its more on the lines of "Profound fascination and enjoyment in even the most mundane activities"

The reason I posted about this "supplement" in Methamphetamine is because the effect it had on me was so alike to methamphetamine only much cleaner. It's just I felt a much greater stimulation and euphoria from this drink then .5grams of very methamphetamine that was of a high purity.

Unforgettably there was an extremely rapid tolerance, almost like a one time thing, after that one time I only felt energy but not much dopamine.

Once I felt the energy drink wear off, I became extremely depressed and that feeling has not gone away even after a 1.5 month break off all stimulants. 3 weeks after that occurance, I decided to chase that high with meth and adderall and now I am very addicted to it. Before that when I did meth or high dosases of adderall, I felt very depressed for a day or so but things would return back to normal with a couple days.

Maybe there was a reason behind do not exceed 2 scoops full in 24 hours.Its just if I think back if I never bought this energy drink, I would never have become addicted to meth. Now all I want to know is wtf was really in this sh**.
  #12  
Old 30-11-2012, 23:48
Basoodler Basoodler is offline
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Re: A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

I am almost 100% sure this stuff came back clean. The lawsuit is done etc

Those phens are also spreading to new products

I managed to get sigma binding on one of them..shulgin also mentioned N'N-dimethyl-B-PEA in the isomer design section in the pea section.

I am just going to make info threads on the molecules.. I don't buy this orchid shit.
Some Acacia it in high concentration. They seem to be in plants with DMT. Diethyl is extremely rare.
  #13  
Old 01-12-2012, 10:26
tomotd11562 tomotd11562 is offline
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Re: A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basoodler View Post
I am almost 100% sure this stuff came back clean. The lawsuit is done etc

Those phens are also spreading to new products

I managed to get sigma binding on one of them..shulgin also mentioned N'N-dimethyl-B-PEA in the isomer design section in the pea section.

I am just going to make info threads on the molecules.. I don't buy this orchid shit.
Some Acacia it in high concentration. They seem to be in plants with DMT. Diethyl is extremely rare.
They obviously changed the formula around some time in april/may when the, lawsuits started coming in,

I did some extra digging and was browsing some forums and it seams people have stopped comparing it to speed/meth/cocaine. I found a huge thread about how people are saying the ingredients where changed and it does not produce the same effects. Here are what some people said, Update I think i found what was in it but not 100% confident its true.

N-Benzyl-2-Phenylethylamine, any input on this compound




What other people are saying

"their attorneys sent me a letter telling me not to say bad or untrue things about craze. i sent them a letter back saying i wont say anything that was untrue or malicious
i have a pretty good idea whats goin on with that product but i cant tell anyone. i was sent two jars - one old batch and one newer one - and i tested both"


"But I gotta say one thing. Craze does NOT do what it used to. On 4th tub currently, 2 grape then 2 lemon. I DID think it was result of tollerance, but I kinda think now, did I noticed it on my 2nd tub, that was grape?? It's not a matter of MORE scoops though. I have always, from day 1, done 2 scoops. More just kind of makes you sick.

But here's the really weird thing, and here's why I'm "kinda" on board with the OP. I had an anphetamine-like experience through that first tub.

I do Not get that anymore. It's much more a caffine high. There IS a difference. I mean, who's NOT gonna think it's a tollerance issue, right?"


"Nah truth be told is that grape masks the taste of meth better than berry lemonade, thus they had to lower the dose of meth in the new flavor which has led all the CrazeHeads to revolt and carry pitchforks to demand answers!"

"I used Craze a long time ago and couldn't handle even 1 scoop. It really felt like I was on an illegal drug and actually binned the product as I was worried it might harm my brain/body.

However, I bought Craze again last week. I take 1 scoop and handle it just fine. Good energy and focus with no negative effects. However I didn't get the euphoric feeling like I did previously. Very puzzling."


and this one stood out to me this

"well actually if you were to read this entire thread you would find several people claiming to have the very same experience as me, whether they say they "like" the new craze better than the old craze or not is a whole diff story , but several (or more) people have claimed, just in this thread alone, that the new craze is somewhat "different" than the old craze. For me, I prefer the old craze because I used to abuse adderall back in freshmen year of college, and the old craze literally feels like adderall without the jitteryness and anxiety of adderall (this is not an accusation of there being amphetamines in craze). For someone not used to powerful stimulants I could see why the "new" craze feeling might be preffered over the "old" craze feeling"
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Old 02-12-2012, 01:47
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Re: A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

y Ahh.. why were those not mentioned in the other lawsuit threads
anyway I found a Chinese forum that actually had the emails between the Chinese vendor and driven sports.
N-ethyl-Beta-Methylphenylethylamine is a molecule that he was at lease asking for.. at the time of the emails the price was too high

also, I saw reports from as recently as July 2012 saying it was stronger than amphetamine or 3-fa . This seems to be hit or miss.. just from reading the forums it seems like it gets some people tweaked, some people hyper focus and others get nothing.


5-AT, 7beta-OH-DHEA are two more compounds he was ordering a long with some on the ingredients.. He seemed juiced about N'N-Diethyl-2-PEA too

Rc Vendor fail:

Quote:
sample of xxxxby UPS, tracking # is xxxxxxxxxxxx, maybe our shipping agent sent it as a documents, after you receive it, please open it, and carefully check inside it. the sample is small, hehe

the other two by DHL xxxxxxxxxxxxxx, I am not sure if there are labels on bag, Triol is very fine white powder, and N,N-dimethyl is big particle,

very sorry for so trouble. here our shipping agent just want to speed the samples. but the commercial shipment will be done as per a good procedure.

g
N-beta-ethyl-methylPEA - sounds close to amphetamine

N'n-diethyl-b-PEA is also one he had them make custom from what the email says. If N'N-Dimethyl has Sigma activity, is it safe to assume that ethyl does as well?


N-Benzyl-2-phenylethylamine ( benethamine)
CAS: 3647-71-0
smiles: C(Cc1ccccc1)NCc1ccccc1
Hazard CodesXi: Irritant;Risk Statements
36/37/38
I actually looked this up lol - R36/37/38Irritating to eyes, respiratory system and skin

Has a very strange patent

Quote:
U.S. Pat. No. 4,234,579 describes the preparation of penicillanic acid 1,1-dioxide, and methods for its use as a beta-lactamase inhibitor in combination with beta-lactam antibiotics. Additionally, U.S. Pat. No. 4,234,579 discloses salts of penicillanic acid 1,1-dioxide, including amine salts. However, the amine salts disclosed in U.S. Pat. No. 4,234,579 are relatively soluble in water, and they are rapidly excreted from the mammalian subject after parenteral administration. It has now been found that certain amine salts of penicillanic acid 1,1-dioxide are sparingly soluble in water, and after parenteral administration to a mammalian subject they give prolonged blood levels of penicillanic acid 1,1-dioxide. These sparingly soluble salts of penicillanic acid 1,1-dioxide are the 1:2 N,N'-dibenzylethylenediamine salt, the N-benzyl-2-phenylamine salt and the dibenzylamine salt.

The 1:2 N,N'-dibenzylethylenediamine, the N-benzyl-2-phenylethylamine and the dibenzylamine salts of several penicillin antibiotics e.g. benzylpenicillin, have been prepared. See further: U.S. Pat. Nos. 2,627,491 and 2,585,432 and British Pat. No. 732,559.

SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION
This invention provides the following salts:
(a) the 1:2 N,N'-dibenzylethylenediamine salt of penicillanic acid 1,1-dioxide;
(b) the N-benzyl-2-phenylethylamine salt of penicillanic acid 1,1-dioxide;
Quote:
Abstract A potent new class of inhibitors of phenylalanyl-tRNA synthetase from Escherichia coli B is described. N-Benzyl-2-phenylethylamine is a competitive inhibitor with respect to L-phenylalanine and appears to possess the structural features required for near-optimal binding. Hydrophobic substituents at the ortho position of either ring appear to be well tolerated, but substituents on both rings lead to large losses in binding. Poor noncompetitive inhibitors resllt from alkylation of the secondary nitrogen, further separation of the N-benzyl group from the nitrogen, or alkylation at the alpha position of the N-benzyl moiety. In contrast, placement of a methyl group at the 1 position of the 2-phenylethylamine moiety to give N-benzyl-D-amphetamine results in the most potent inhibitor yet described for this enzyme
Phenylalanyl transfer ribonucleic acid synthetase from Escherichia coli B. Potent inhibition by analogues of N-benzyl-2-phenylethylamine.

Anderson RT Jr, et al..

Quote:

N-Benzyl-2-phenethylamine

Synonyms: Benethamine, N-Benzyl-2-PEA CID 65055

Extensive research with alpha-methylated derivatives of this compound (See: Benzphetamine, N-Benzylamphetamine) indicate that the main metabolite of N-Benzyl-2-PEA will be PEA. Similar to the compound previously discussed, the N-benzyl substituent will likely enjoy a longer half life than regular PEA. Conversely, it should offer less CNS penetration due to the polarity of the benzyl moiety. The main difference between PEA and its N-benzyl*derivative is that the latter may produce a local anesthetic effect relating to sodium channel inhibition. It may also*possess weak sigma receptor proclivity.

In summary, these compounds may indeed be superior pharmacological derivatives of phenylethylamine, although. vastly inferior to alpha-substituted analogues. As of this writing, neither analogue has been found in nature. Similarly, no animal or human study exists, and the potential for negative health effects, although unlikely,*are not excluded. Caveat emptor.
N-benzl-b-PEA is a 5htp2 agonist (maybe .. ). Could explain euphoria

Quote:
...

Agonist activity at the serotonin 2A (5-HT2A) receptor is essential for the psychopharmacology of serotonergic psychedelics such as LSD, DOI, psilocin, and 5-MeO-DMT, compounds with unique and dramatic effects on certain aspects of consciousness (Nichols 2004).

...

We also have expanded and extended the findings of Pertz et al. (1999), and Elz et al. (2002), that N-benzyl phenethylamines, particularly those with a 2-methoxy or 2-hydroxy function on the benzyl moiety, represent a novel class of high affinity, potent, and modestly selective 5-HT2A receptor agonists. We believe our data are consistent with the general topology for the h5-HT2A receptor reflected in our in silico-activated homology model of this receptor (Chambers and Nichols, 2002). Finally, and perhaps most important, we believe it may be possible to exploit cognate residue in 6.51 in other GPCRs to design agonists with increased potency and intrinsic activity.
N'N-ethyl-b-methylPEA - ? I need to look up.. could be the main stim.. the only issue is emails indicate that the price was too high per kg. And they may not have bought in to it

N-benzyl-2-PEA - a case could be made that the removal was based on n-benzyl-2-PEA's not being found in plantlife. It is also an irratant to lungs and skin.. I wouldnt mess with buying pure powder. based on the pharmacology quote below.. I don't think this kept you up 3 days

Quote:
indicate that the main metabolite of N-Benzyl-2-PEA will be PEA. Similar to the compound previously discussed, the N-benzyl substituent will likely enjoy a longer half life than regular PEA. Conversely, it shouldn't offer less CNS penetration due to the polarity of the benzyl moiety. The main difference between PEA and its N-benzyl*derivative is that the latter may produce a local anesthetic effect relating to sodium channel inhibition. It may also*possess weak sigma receptor proclivity.



The reason I'd suspect N-ethyl-Beta-Methylphenylethylamine is somebody got nailed for the methyl/methyl molecule. The one they talked about just subs eth for meth

N-Methyl-Beta-Methylphenylethylamine which is a positional isomer of methamphetamine. I don't think it was all that exciting though.. like a short acting Adriatic


Further more, if the FDA or a lawsuit had busted the product, why is it winning still awards? The Cahill guy is sketchy and has been arrested for having a basement lab.

Does anyone know how substituting ethyl for methyl would effect binding? For example, I have at least some data for N'N-dimethyl-2-pea.. could that be somehow related to N'N-Diethyl-2-PEA.. same goes for N-(ethyl/methyl)-Beta-Methylphenylethylamine

Basoodler added 654 Minutes and 19 Seconds later...

I'm convinced after reading these forms of a few things

1) this is nothing but 3 owners of 3 competing businesses acting like catty drama queens

2) D.S. loved the law suites and would welcome more speculation.. because it sells product

3) the N-benzyl-pea was found by a competitor.. that Arnold dude who claims he invented DMAA. That's like burger king saying they tested a big Mac and its tainted with giraffe shit.

4) who gives a fuck if 2-benzyl-PEA was in there.. its not illegal., its available to buy and its not expensive.


..........

Its like a couple kids

Hey! You put an extra exotic pea analog in your stuff

Did not

Yes you did

Did not!

I'm telling mom

Mom says " shut the fuck up you brats.. who cares,"


5) the whole nutrition scene is full of immature men who gossip like a tribe of old ladies. its annoying.




6) the stuff is full of b-pea & analogs... Why would they hide another from the consumer?
  • N'N'-DIMethyl, N'N-DiEthyl, B-Pea from extract,more B-Pea Hcl (I guess for good measure..)and PEA
  • Says the two exotics come from orchids, but there is no proof on the internet or otherwise that it has ever been extracted from orchids.. I have not seen anyone question that
  • If the Emails that were posted from the company (I have my doubts actually). Then DA asked the chemist to figure out N'N'-Diethyl. The chemists keeps updating on the progress with quality and yields.
  • There is not even a shred of evidence that N-benzyl-PEA is a super stimulant.. As far as I know it is similar to PEA with a longer half life. May be 5htp2 (maybe.. bit maybe) and weak sigma
  • Its been used with penicillin for a while.. Don't see many tweaked sick people :P
7) the whole story about the competitor finding benzyl .. sounds like bullshit. First of all he says there were only two peaks, 1 being benzyl and the other.. he didn't know , says maybe diethyl.. second he says he was sent the sample in an open container.. probably a baggy by the Driven Sports LLC... why the fuck would DA send a tainted sample to a competitor in an open container... they wouldn't!!!

To be honest the whole thing reminds of WWF wrestling drama.. these big dramatic accusations.. class action lawsuits.. one guy dramatically reveals test results .. the other counters with his own.. all of this shit right on bodybuilding forums.. with little skirmishes like wrestling matches.. all they need is rick flair and randy macho man savage to jump into forum. .. its probably just manufactured drama to sell product

Some of the people on those sites need to be honest with themselves and buy real drugs. Consuming all of those unknown chemicals of unknown quality is no better than taking research chemicals. Only you actually catch a buzz on rc's, and not consuming copious amounts of potentially dangerous compounds .. and hoping for a buzz

To sum up:

Benzyl pea is mixed with antibiotics.. sick people are not tweaked... if it was in the first batches , I would guess it was because the N'N-diethyl was still in a late stage of development.. or maybe an impurity.

The two N'N-D-pea analogs can't be discounted as likely suspects.. N'N-dimethyl has two more tell tell signs than all the other shit.. 1) shulgin ..mentions it in pihkal 2) somebody thought enough of it to study it in comparison to dmt , cocaine etc. Not to mention that study shows some promise

The whole back story about tainting etc is too dramatic to follow. DA is eating up Arnold's dumb as claim that it has benzyl pea.. even though Arnold said "it is most likely of no consequence ".. its become urban legend.. Arnold sells supplements too.. I don't believe for a second that he passed up using a "meth like" stim.. he is one of the guys who helped get DMAA banned.. his stuff would be full of it too... its probably the N'N-pea combined with inhibitors that makes the magic

The new jersey lawsuit I linked up in my 2nd or third post.. its about 2 trademarks.

Don't forget the orchids (here is a list of alkaloids.. no peas)

Chemical Part Lo ppm Hi ppm Reference

4-HYDROXYDENDROXINE Stem DUKE1992A 6-HYDROXYDENDROBINE Stem DUKE1992A 6-HYDROXYDENDROXINE Stem DUKE1992A 6-OXYDENDROBINE Stem DUKE1992A 6-OXYDENDROXINE Stem DUKE1992A ARSENIC Plant DUKE1992A BETA-SITOSTEROL Plant DUKE1992A BETA-SITOSTEROL-BETA-D-GLUCOSIDE Plant DUKE1992A CALCIUM Stem 6530 DUKE1992A COPPER Stem 9 DUKE1992A DENBINOBIN Plant DUKE1992A DENDRAMINE Plant DUKE1992A DENDRIN Stem DUKE1992A DENDRINE Plant DUKE1992A DENDROBINE Stem DUKE1992A DENDROBINE-N-OXIDE Plant DUKE1992A DENDROXINE Stem DUKE1992A IRON Stem 90 DUKE1992A MAGNESIUM Stem 520 DUKE1992A MANGANESE Stem 53 DUKE1992A MERCURY Stem 0.05 DUKE1992A N-ISOPENTENYL-6-HYDROXYDENDROXINIUM-CHLORIDE Plant DUKE1992A

N-ISOPENTENYLDENDROBIUM-BROMIDE Plant DUKE1992A N-ISOPENTENYLDENDROXINE Plant DUKE1992A N-ISOPENTENYLDENDROXINIUM-CHLORIDE Plant DUKE1992A NOBILINE Plant DUKE1992A NOBILOMETHYLENE Stem DUKE1992A NOBILONINE Stem DUKE1992A POTASSIUM Stem 7200 DUKE1992A SODIUM Stem 156 DUKE1992A ZINC

Those hydroxy alkaloids have been studied .. but its all in Chinese..they said on the label they use this extract.. they don't have to list all of the contents on the label.

If one had a low ppm and is a stem.. they can make it in a lab, and are not bound to listing it.. just sayin

Post Quality Evaluations:
Very in depth information! Thoroughly researched!
Great Insight
very informative

Last edited by Basoodler; 02-12-2012 at 17:23. Reason: s
  #15  
Old 05-12-2012, 04:10
tomotd11562 tomotd11562 is offline
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Re: A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

How about the synergistic effects between, the methy tyramine and the methyl group donator and PEA

There is some occurance of dopamine neuromodulation and some activation of TAAR1

tyramine>B-PEA>octopamine>m-tyramine>dopamine>tryptamine>histamine>serotonin>norepinephrine

octopamine and tryptamine are both found in the citrus reticulata.. possibly added to the forumal as part of the citrus reticulata extract off label, hmm
  #16  
Old 16-03-2013, 06:38
tomotd11562 tomotd11562 is offline
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Re: A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

This was overstatement though. Though this stuff is very close to speed and its legal
  #17  
Old 02-04-2013, 22:03
Mir6 Mir6 is offline
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Re: A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

Craze by Driven Sports. Having a few times taken a couple of Phenylethylamine/PEA capsules (available at many online sports supplements stores) with a coffee and experienced a clear dopamine/motivation semi-euphoric high for about 1.5-2 hours, I was excited when I learned about that product because people on forums were saying they felt that high up to 6-7 hours without a crash.

With PEA there's a rapid tolerance that sets in (you can't take the same dose of PEA two days in a row and expect the same results) and I thought they had figured a way to get rid of that tolerance so I could take PEA more than once every two weeks and feel the full effects.

Now, as tomotd11562 noted, people on bodybuilding forums who say they've tried the first batch have noticed a difference between the original Craze, the first released to the public (before the lawsuits and all), and the newer Craze. The newer isn't as powerful and it isn't euphoric. The company says the formula hasn't changed but most people are not buying it. According to the info I gathered (i.e. expiration date), I purchased the newer batch. I can't compare to the first batch but I can compare it to PEA caps + caffeine.

So I bought it 3 months ago, expecting to experience something similar to PEA + caffeine but lasting longer. After all it contains B-Phenylethylamine HCl + caffeine so I should at least get that feeling. But I got ...nothing!

1 scoop was like taking a coffee and nothing more and it lasted 3 hours. A couple of days later I tried 2 scoops and it gave me the caffeine alertness but with a nagging nausea. By chance I skipped lunch so I didn't throw up. I tried working out a little thinking once I get going it might 'work' but I felt weaker than usual. I also got a headache and then had to take a walk half-naked outside at 14 F because the nausea had became stronger and I needed some cold fresh air. I didn't feel the shadow of a PEA 'high'. WTF? I'm not going to try 3 or 4 scoops.

You can stop believing the hype about Craze. Either:

A) some people respond like crazy and some don't feel much, or

B) there was something 'special' about the first batch they sold and it's not coming back

It might work as advertised for some people but you should try it first. But as far as I know they don't sell small sized samples. They're smart business people aren't they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basoodler View Post
Arnold sells supplements too..
he works for Gaspari I think, which recently relased a Craze-like product called Detonate:

label says:
Proprietary Blend 700mg. Dendrobium extract (stem), B-Phenylethylamine HCl, Tangerine extract (fruit), Caffeine anhydrous, Green tea extract (leaf), Green coffee bean extract, Asian ginseng (root), Black pepper extract (as BioPerine®) (fruit).

they claim:
"Dendrobium extract in key ratios with other ingredients in Detonate destroy DMAA and the old school stimulants like yohimbine and synephrine."


LOL Has anyone tried this never-seen-before! POWERFUL!! competition-DESTROYING!!! stimulant? Count me among the skeptics. There's a reason why those companies don't sell small samples for you to try before you buy a full bottle.
  #18  
Old 04-04-2013, 04:06
Basoodler Basoodler is offline
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Re: A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

Holy shit balls!

That Arnold guy was the worlds biggest dendrobium skeptic, and after his childish diatribes and goofy "I ran spectrometry on craze and found 2-B-PEA! It must be a super stim". I figured he would launch a 2B-pea product line with catchy names like "2B-e" and "2b-i" to capitalize on recent media

I guess he decided to redact his skeptasizm and do a 180

What i found amazing about all of this was that these natural extracts are anything but natura. They scour academica for interesting molecules.. in this case b-pea analogs.. contract a lab to price the synth .. secure a supply.. then find plant that contains it to credit it to.. in the case of craze they credit an entire group of plants "orchid" , dont say what strain of orchid.. and there is neither any proof its in one or a way to disprove it.

Just a bunch of RC peddlers with a few extra rules to side step the law
  #19  
Old 06-04-2013, 02:26
Mir6 Mir6 is offline
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Re: A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basoodler View Post
I guess he decided to redact his skeptasizm and do a 180
To be honest I don't know if he's still working for Gaspari, his website says he "currently produces products for the nutritional supplement company E-pharm Nutrition, as well as for Prototype Nutrition". He may not be the formulator behind Detonate. My guess is that Gaspari felt they needed to compete with Driven Sports on the 'Craze' front and they asked someone to come up with a formula that mimicks Craze, whatever it does.

The thing that sucks about those companies is that none of them seem confident enough with their products to offer small samples. I paid $40+ pour 238g of Craze and now I'm stuck with basically a grape cough syrup tasting caffeine powder. Meh. I should have paid 5 or 10$ for a couple of servings in disposable bags to try it out. Why do they only do that with protein powders? They should do that for almost every product that is supposed to quickly have an effect.
  #20  
Old 06-04-2013, 02:53
Basoodler Basoodler is offline
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Re: A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

I think one of the mail sales stradegies for these companies is to build up hype for spe ific products using alternative methods. Like for instance with craze.. right off the bat sensationalist user reviews hit the forums, followed by accusations of amphetamine
. The whole thing turned into a spectical.. with lawsuits and transcripts from chinese vendors.

All that
  #21  
Old 06-04-2013, 18:37
Mir6 Mir6 is offline
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Re: A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

It's now banned in Australia because the authorities say it contains a methamphetamine analog. I haven't found an official statement on the australian ban on the company's website. It will probably cause an increase in sales everywhere else :rolleyes :
  #22  
Old 06-04-2013, 20:45
Basoodler Basoodler is offline
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Re: A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

Ya it will increase sales. I bet this controversy is a dream come true for driven sports.

Whats funny with the whole meth rumor is one of those N'n-diethyl/diemethyl analogs is virtually indistinguishable from meth when gc/ms is done. That is absolutely no indication that it has effects anything like meth.. im sure it doesnt.


Btw those N'n analogs are found in that acacia species that tested positive for meth. My guess is that driven sports got the idea to use those analogs from documentation about that acacia.. but it cant used.. one company tried a while back and were forced to pull ir from the market.

Btw there is info in one of my previous posts about the N'n-diemethyl-b-pea and meth connection

Basoodler added 0 Minutes and 30 Seconds later...

Ya it will increase sales. I bet this controversy is a dream come true for driven sports.

Whats funny with the whole meth rumor is one of those N'n-diethyl/diemethyl analogs is virtually indistinguishable from meth when gc/ms is done. That is absolutely no indication that it has effects anything like meth.. im sure it doesnt.


Btw those N'n analogs are found in that acacia species that tested positive for meth. My guess is that driven sports got the idea to use those analogs from documentation about that acacia.. but it cant used.. one company tried a while back and were forced to pull ir from the market.

Btw there is info in one of my previous posts about the N'n-diemethyl-b-pea and meth connection

Last edited by Basoodler; 06-04-2013 at 20:45. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #23  
Old 12-05-2013, 22:04
auser auser is offline
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Re: A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

I've used both of these supplements heavily (DMAA and whatever the active is in 'Craze'),

Notably different effects from both. Defo some actives.

DMAA gives an amphetamine like effect. Elevated heart rate, vasoconstriction, speed dick, lots of energy, moderate aggression etc.

Craze isn't speedy at all. The only way I can describe it is massively focusing. I can't sleep on it, have crazy dreams...

Both are horrible as workout aids. The disturbed sleep, anxiety and general unease i experienced after use wasn't fun. I've run cycles of anabolics > 3g a week that included short ester trenbolone which felt like a breeze by comparison in terms of sleep and anxiety.

I'd be willing to bet that the original packages of craze had an added, unlabelled extra (this happened a lot with 'novel bodybuilding supplements' - anecdotal reports of methyl-Tren in a batch of 'new' prohormones) as I've used APS cutting aids that had the same labelled active ingredients that felt NOTHING like Craze,

I think that the steroid analogues that have flown under the radar for so many years were the precursor market for the current RC flood. Find something that works, add a methyl or ethyl ring and market it as a new product...
  #24  
Old 23-06-2013, 16:33
Mir6 Mir6 is offline
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Re: A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

Quote:
Originally Posted by auser View Post
Craze isn't speedy at all. The only way I can describe it is massively focusing. I can't sleep on it, have crazy dreams...
I wish the bottle of Craze I have was massively focusing. I didn't buy it as a pre-workout supplement, I wanted something that motivates me to study and read boring stuff. I wonder if there are still bottles of the original batch somewhere
  #25  
Old 25-06-2013, 09:48
CheeseFiend21 CheeseFiend21 is offline
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Re: A legal high 5 times stronger and 2 times longer then meth? One time only?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomotd11562 View Post
I have always wanted to share this

Creatine Monohydrate, Trimethylglycine , L-Citrulline, Dendrobex™ (Dendrobium Extract) (Stem) (Concentrated For Alkaloid Content Including Dendrobine, Dendroxine, Dendramine, B-Phenylethylamine, N,N-Dimethyl-B-Phenylethylamine, And N,N-Diethyl-B-Phenylethylamine), B-Phenylethylamine HCl, Citramine™ (Citrus Reticulata Extract) (Fruit) (Concentrated For N-Methyltyramine Content), Caffeine Anhydrous
the OP provided us with ↑ as the ingredients that were in his scoops..
To the current date and what the ingredients are today are:
Serving Size 1 ScoopServings Per Container 45Amount Per Serving% DVVitamin C (as Ascorbic Acid) 250.00 mg</B> 417% Kinesis® Proprietary Blend 4580.00 mg ** Creatine Monohydrate Trimethylglycine (Betaine Anhydrous) L-Citrulline ** Dendrobex (Dendrobium Extract) (Stem) (Concentrated For Alkaloid Content Including Dendrobine Dendroxine Dendramine ** B-Phenylethylamine NN-Dimethyl-B-Phenylethylamine And NN-Diethyl-B-Phenylethylamine) B-Phenylethylamine HCl ** Citramine (Citrus Reticulata Extract) (Fruit) (Concentrated For N-Methyltyramine Content) Caffeine Anhydrous **

It seems like the same Recipe as OP. Can someone explain change, if there were?

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