4-AcO-DMT

[MadShroomer]

This is on another forum (edit:delete) but SWIM felt it should go here, the guy SWIM's quote'n is on this board as well ... at least SWIM thinks so...

Originally Posted by Dondante

^^Glad you enjoyed yourself. Six days though ... perhaps a little excessive?



The long climb to the peak with intranasal administration makes me even more confident that the 4-aco-dmt has at least some trouble passing the BBB. If it could pass easily, you would peak earlier. I bet if you insufflated 4-ho-dmt, you'd peak pretty damned fast. Anyway, thanks for the report MadShroomer.

Actually,
SWIM DID experience an initial RUSH and this is believed to be the result of the 4-acetyl bond, wich is the same bond that turns Morhpine into Heroine (makes it more effective/addictive BECAUSE the acetyl bond enables it to pass VERY quickly through the blood/brain barrier). But don't take my word for it...check it

According to Alexander Shulgin, "In the case of psilocybin to psilocin, this saponification is essential for activity, as the phosphate ester is far too polar to get across the blood-brain barrier. But this problem need not exist with the acetate ester. I have explored the 4-hydroxy-DET but I am more familiar with the 4-hydroxy-DIPT. It is of a rather rapid onset implying possible absorption directly from the stomach. However, in a group study with the corresponding ester 4-AcO-DIPT, we felt that it had an even faster onset and perhaps a increased potency. This would suggest that it might be considered an active drug in its own right rather than simply a precursor to the active drug 4-HO-DIPT."

This quote came from here:
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/4_ac...article1.shtml

So the initial "RUSH" is the molecule entering the central kingdom, then the body does what ever and turns it into a much more potent tryptamine (this would be 4-ho-dmt but might be oxidized to a very quinonic product that is unknown).

Read the above link to the article its FACINATING!

Reputation Comments on this post:

Read the rules, linking to other forums is not allowed

[MadShroomer]

Sorry about posting that link to the other board...SWIM feels retarted for not seeing that in the rules (or perhaps SWIM was too stoned to remember...?)
But here is yet another FASINATING thing SWIM found....
(from http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/4_ac...article1.shtml)

"In the 4-hydroxy indole world, an obvious quinonic product would be the cross-conjugated product with the loss of the hydrogen on the hydroxy as well as the hydrogen on the indolic nitrogen. This compound would certainly be colored and, still having no polar locations, might be OK to cross the BBB [blood brain barrier]. Once inside the brain, it could be reduced to the parent hydroxy tryptamine or an even more appealing explanation might be that the absorbed 4-AcO-DIPT (4-AcO-DET in your immediate example) might, after loss of the acetyl group once inside the brain, be oxidized to this very quinonic product and it just might be the true active factor for both original forms!" If this had been true, it may have required some major revision in what we believe about the way drugs like psilocybin work. Further data seems to point in yet another direction, however."

It goes on to point out a few WIERD quinoic products, take a look at this..

[MadShroomer]

THIS must go in this board less it fall behind SWIM's other board...

Originally Posted by Smyth

How do u know that with heroin the acetoxy groups are immediately hydrolyzed?

Nobody has ever pointed to any recent scientific in-vitro studies that can unequivocally prove that heroin is not active in its own right and only serves as a prodrug for morphine.

If this were the case, it might be that 4-AcO-DMT crosses the BBB a piece of cake only once across it has to hang around long enough for the AcO to be hydrolyzed. And that this is the reason for the time delay. At least that would be my primeval guess although I must stress that im not a biochemist.

I have a really far-out pdf on BBB penetration in drug design if anybody is interested but it is not particularly helpful although it is indepth and extensive.

Also there is the fact that esterase enzymes in the body effect this hydrolysis (sometimes enantioselectivity although not of any relevence here), and this is quoted to occur in the pores that lie in the BBB.

OK! SWIM wasn't saying that it "hangs around" to be hydrolisized (although this is the leading theary, but what SWIM Was saying is that HEROIN (Di-ACETYL-morphine) is more potent and quicker acting becuase of the ACETYL bond wich enables it easier passage than haveing 20k in gold coins when the "bridge farrier" to the netherlands ask's you for toll (seeing as their is no other passage to the neitherworld without a fair, this would make you increadible adept to passage back and forth MULTIPULE times before the "managers" caught on).
SWIM has been smoking illegal "cannabis" hashish (cold water extraction 'bubble' hash) and has been drinking but SWIM has been thinking about this ALL DAY LITERALLY! and has been processing countless algarithims inside a solitary isolation chamber (i.e. the human mind while participating in a systematic JOB that requires multiple repetition of a single acitivity multipile times [i.e. a certain 'salamander' genetic stock center wich happens to house 2k+ aquatic amphibians.]) now SWIM has forgotten what SWIM was going to say :P
ok wait let SWIM re-read....

Originally Posted by Smyth

How do u know that with heroin the acetoxy groups are immediately hydrolyzed?

SWIM didn't say that.... did SWIM? SWIM simply stated that this organic bond enabled the compount to directly pass through a certain barrier to the inner workins of the mind (THE BBB :P )

Nobody has ever pointed to any recent scientific in-vitro studies that can unequivocally prove that heroin is not active in its own right and only serves as a prodrug for morphine.

THIS IS TRUE...although...di-acetyl-morhpine IS converted at least PARTIALLY to morphine and VISA VI ---- Codeine and so on as to the components that are detectable via drug testing..... SWIM believes that di-acetyl-morphine IS extremely active IN-VITRO and eventually breaks down to a less potent analog that doesn't have the ability to bypass the BBB...

If this were the case, it might be that 4-AcO-DMT crosses the BBB a piece of cake only once across it has to hang around long enough for the AcO to be hydrolyzed. And that this is the reason for the time delay. At least that would be my primeval guess although I must stress that im not a biochemist.

ok, PSILACETIN DOES cross the BBB AS WELL AS OR NOT BETTER THAN di-acetyl morphine (SWIM does not meen to suggest that 4-aco-dmt is not able too do so better than the TWO bonded pairs [twice the ability?].)

there is the fact that esterase enzymes in the body effect this hydrolysis (sometimes enantioselectivity although not of any relevence here), and this is quoted to occur in the pores that lie in the BBB.

This would point to the evidence with 4-aco-det and 4-aco-dipt that was elaborated in the previous article posted (via erowid).

The point is SWIM thinks that similar breakdowns in molecular bonding that was evident in the 4-aco-det and 4-aco-dipt experiments (tests, scientific process stuff :P).
SWIM believes that because of 4-ho-dmt's ease of breakdown in the body would be avoided if this molecule was MADE inside the BBB by MAOI's or other breakdown stuff.....
SWIM belives that at least SIMILAR molecular compounds ARE produced once inside the BBB and safe from the HARMFUL processes of other parts of the body (the blood stream DOES go through everything but the BBB does PROTECT the brain from certain stuff)

SWIM has typed enough and will await reply's to SWIM's beliefs in chemistry/biology...
Atlest SWIM believes Shulgin would consider SWIM's ideas....
[edit: here is the other post posted by SWIM but SWIM didn't want to double post....]

Originally Posted by Dondante

Well, heroin is nothing like 4-HO-DMT for one thing. Yes, the acetyl groups do make the molecule less polar and allow it faster access to the brain ... and yes, that is what is expected.

What I'm saying is that there is something else going on with the tryptamines that actually makes the opposite true. The 4-HOs get though just fine, and the 4-ACOs have more trouble. It's about conformations of the molecules rather than just reducing polarity in a single conformation.

SWIM isn't saying that 4-ho-dmt is anything like HEROINE in molecular structure but simply relating the organic bond "AcO" (SWIM belives this is "organic" as acetylation occurs naturaly after the breakdown of ethanol in furmentation [curse SWIMS BIOLOGY MAJOR parents who have some how passed infinite knowledge to SWIMS mortal mind])

Edit: And Smyth, that hypothesis seems just as valid (the 4-ACO-DMT has immediate access, but cannot stimulate the receptor as effectively until it undergoes hydrolysis. Hmm ... I'll have to think about this for a while.

SWIM is glad that SWIY's ideas are alike with like minded individuals (smart minds think alike?)

But, SWIM would like to point out in the article on erowid that something else besides "hydrolysis" could potentialy be ongoing inside the BBB...(afterall who has a probe that can penetrate this membrane and NOT interfer with normal function [kinda like the black-hole of the universe inside the workings of a living individual])
SWIM will now stop smoking bubble hash out of hookah pipe as SWIM is sleepy...

[big-lester]

ok, so to me it seems that this 4-aco-DMT has the potential to become one of the most favored psychedelics next to say mushrooms, LSD and DMT or so. at least, that's what I make up from this thread. SWIBL can;t wait to get his hands on this stuff! (just too bad SWIBL doesn;t have ANY damn vendors anymore)

[raven3davis]

ohh btw incase anyone was wondering...this stuff mixes with grain alcohol very well. No signs of degradation after a few weeks.

[grandbaby]

Originally Posted by raven3davis

ohh btw incase anyone was wondering...this stuff mixes with grain alcohol very well. No signs of degradation after a few weeks.

Interesting. 4-AcO_MiPT is well known to turn to goop in same. Are the non-existent "signs of degradation" visual or qualitative?

[MadShroomer]

Originally Posted by grandbaby

Interesting. 4-AcO_MiPT is well known to turn to goop in same. Are the non-existent "signs of degradation" visual or qualitative?

well based on previous accounts of degredation of 4-aco-dmt apparently a blue/green hue is noticed (as with degredation of 4-po-dmt and 4-ho-dmt). Of course apparently the person was trying to decompose 4-aco-dmt into 4-ho-dmt so... yeah.

[MadShroomer]

grain alcohl eh? swim finds that drinking 1 beer takes 4 hours on this stuff :P too much going on elsewhere....
Swim doesn't suggest doingthis after a 5 day bender on K as the brain needs time to recoperate ;(

[grandbaby]

Interesting results on color-blindness as well. I have a friend who is color-blind and can only see colors when he takes mushrooms (his only psychedelic). This, IMHO, is an interesting and little-known (but consistently observed) side-effect of the DMT family of tryptamines (hey, wait, at the risk of running the thread off topic, do the MiPTs et al have the same effect? Anyone?) that deserves a big university study.

Reputation Comments on this post:

very interesting tidbit

[Nagognog2]

In the 1960's, tests were done on random victims (koff!) to see if they could tell the difference between LSD, Psilocybin, and Mescaline. Those who took the tests more than once, and found out what they were given in the first instance by comparing notes with other testicles, were able to accurately guess what they had taken. Or so the story goes.

What is known is that most people with little experience with psychedelics are so caught up and overwhelmed by the experience that they can't begin to know, or wonder, what they ingested.

An experienced experimenter likely could tell the difference between a x-MiPT and an x-DMT.

But most experiments screen out those with experience from said "University/Med. School Studies." They screw up the results - as well as laugh at the researchers.

[MadShroomer]

Originally Posted by Nagognog2

In the 1960's, tests were done on random victims (koff!) to see if they could tell the difference between LSD, Psilocybin, and Mescaline. Those who took the tests more than once, and found out what they were given in the first instance by comparing notes with other testicles, were able to accurately guess what they had taken. Or so the story goes.

What is known is that most people with little experience with psychedelics are so caught up and overwhelmed by the experience that they can't begin to know, or wonder, what they ingested.

An experienced experimenter likely could tell the difference between a x-MiPT and an x-DMT.

But most experiments screen out those with experience from said "University/Med. School Studies." They screw up the results - as well as laugh at the researchers.

Timothy Leary i believe was the guy who tried to get Harvard to do research with psylocybin/psilocin and eventually got kicked out.
"The Harvard University Psilocybin Research Project, a two-year study conducted by Dr. Timothy Leary" was the title.
Hopefully someday somewhere more will be done in this fasinating field of reasearch and discovery.

[Nagognog2]

The color is correct. Unsure regards the stability as a fumarate salt - but this side of under a vacuum or inert gas screen - the method your pet has chosen is best.

I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn.

[chrisn]

Seems to be quite stable even at room-temp, kept dry and away from light. Of course, cold and with a desicant is best.

[ODB]

Does NE1 know if its soluble in dH2O or everclear?

[allyourbase]

it is, but tryptamines are known to degrade rapidly in solution. h202 if one could find a pure enough amount might hold this particular chemical together really well.

[chrisn]

@allyourbase: I read somewhere that the acetylated tryptamines seemed to be an exception to that rule (for dH2O at least), I don't have source atm so I cannot confirm this.

[halftone]

swim thought he noticed a slight degradation in activity after his 4-aco-dmt was stored in distilled water over a 4 week period.

[ODB]

What about grain alcohol?

[MadShroomer]

Originally Posted by ODB

What about grain alcohol?

ah 95% pure Ethyl Alcohol Good stuff, very powerful solvent (special in its physical properties too!)
its like this (from my understanding) as far as Polarity goes
Polar ------------------------- Non polar
less polar---------------more non polar
H2O ----------- EtOH --------- C4H10O

Water (H2O)
Alcohol (EtOH)
ethoxyethane (C4H10O) aka "Diethyl Ether"

[chrisn]

I can't link to the source because it is bluelight, but a chemist there said this: "The stuff is crazy stable though.. its the 1:1 fumarate salt - there is no psilocin in here, so technically, its just another analog right? I was worried about it degrading but it really does seem difficult to do (on purpose)."

No word about in solution I guess.

[sinking]

Hi all, SWIM needs advice fast,
in a dream,
SWIM did a smallish amount of this drug and didn't get expected effects... then the morning after, had a migraine aura followed by a moderate headache.
Of course there is a link between tryptamines and migraines, but thought it was preventative.
Anyway this could be a coincidence as SWIM has had migraine aura before?
Or could 4-aco have caused this?
Swim dreamt of obtaining the substance from a well respected source, but could there perhaps have been a mistake?
Thanks for your replies, SWIM will keep you posted!

[Shampoo]

Originally Posted by sinking

Hi all, SWIM needs advice fast,
in a dream,
SWIM did a smallish amount of this drug and didn't get expected effects... then the morning after, had a migraine aura followed by a moderate headache.
Of course there is a link between tryptamines and migraines, but thought it was preventative.
Anyway this could be a coincidence as SWIM has had migraine aura before?
Or could 4-aco have caused this?
Swim dreamt of obtaining the substance from a well respected source, but could there perhaps have been a mistake?
Thanks for your replies, SWIM will keep you posted!

Could swiy elaborate on the weight or approximate weight of a "smallish amount"? speculating on the effects of an unknown amount of a substance, which potentially isn't even the correct substance, is near impossible.

[catfish_groid]

t=0:~40-50mg orally
of psilocetin
very bitter persistant taste
much like asprin
go figure
not at all like tooting
t=+0.15 snorted equal amt
will report back
this substance appears to be
like powdered sugar
it does clump a bit but is dry
it does not burn the nose
will be smoking cannabis tonite as well

[Samadhi]

Originally Posted by catfish_groid

t=0:~40-50mg orally
of psilocetin
very bitter persistant taste
much like asprin
go figure
not at all like tooting
t=+0.15 snorted equal amt
will report back
this substance appears to be
like powdered sugar
it does clump a bit but is dry
it does not burn the nose
will be smoking cannabis tonite as well

Uhh, That is a MASSIVE dose of 4-aco-DMT. Swim took doses of 35mg and was left tripping his socks off... is swiy sure he took 40-50mg orally then a booster of 40-50mg nasally... because one can expect to be calling the ambulance soon if they did...

and assuming by the way swiy guestimated the doses taken he does not have an accurate scale... of all the things...

[catfish_groid]

swim has an abnormally high tolerance for substances that target 5-HT and DA receptors
swim gets frontal lobe DA but not "?hippocampal? the ones in the back of the head neck area
so yeah swim can take a bit more than the average
unfortunately swim seems to HAVE to take much more than the average joe

anyways swim's journal read as such:
t=+0:30 trip came up sorta fast
joints feel psilly and head swimming a bit
very similar to psilocybe mushrooms
but absolutely no nausea
typical lassitude of body
and little desire to move
somatic components identical to previous shroom experiences
cannabis was smoked a few times near the end to prolong the visions
mostly didnt feel the need to do much of anything besides listen to music and
marvel at the visions
peak was intense lasted about 2-3 hours but swim was dazed
well into the 6th hour
a bit restless sorta drunken but not really tripping anymore
sleep was not forthcoming but managed to get a bit
5 hours only and swim was good to go to work after drinking some water and eating a few chocolate and peanut butter cups
swim would heartily discourage attempts to duplicate these dosages
as swim has a unique medical condition that requires such high doses
peace

Reputation Comments on this post:

	The report is appreciated, but please do not incriminate yourself. (See Drugs Forum rule number 16)
	Great report especially now that it doesn't include self incrimination. Thank you kindly for sharing this