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  #1  
Old 16-10-2012, 19:42
dihydromoron dihydromoron is offline
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IV Heroin - Risk vs Reward info requested

Hi guys

I would like an answer to a puzzling question, if possible leaving morals/ethics etc aside

Ive smoked UK white powder heroin (the kind that goes brown and sticky when heated) on foil
several times over the last few months, sometimes smoking 1 or 2 lines, sometimes smoking 2 or 3 bags

Only twice have I ever felt any euphoria from it, usually I feel nothing, sometimes it just gets rid of the
withdrawals but the 2 times I did feel good was because I smoked a large amount of good gear.

So my question:

If I IV inject a smaller amount than it took to feel euphoric when smoked, will I get the feelings I so desire i.e the rush, euphoria etc?

I know very well the risks involved and have IV'd myself once before around 2 weeks ago, definitely got it into the vein but the gear was crap and it was a tiny amount so I felt nothing.

Also where would you say the best vein to go for is for someone with slightly shakey hands and no prior experience?

Im thinking back of hand because it worked before

I would try the inside of my arm, but im scared that there is an artery there which of course I want to avoid at ALL COSTS

Hope someone with knowledge can help as Ive only got 1 shot at this and I want to get it right, be a long time before I can get anywhere near Heroin again and I dont want to waste my last go.

thanks in advance, I hope someone gets back to me

Dihydro
  #2  
Old 16-10-2012, 20:20
Soma Cruz Soma Cruz is offline
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Re: IV Heroin - Risk vs Reward info requested

It is possible that you will get a rush and euphoria from shooting a smaller amount of heroin than you smoked. Heroin's bioavailability is given in Klous et al. (2005) as 26% to 58% for smoking off of foil. Bioavailability for IV is 100% by definition. So you have the potential for a shot to be up to 300% stronger than smoking, depending on your body, technique, and equipment. Of course, it probably won't be THAT much stronger, but it will still be noticeably stronger, which is why you're smart for wanting to lower the initial IV dose. I'd suggest maybe half of what you usually smoke, possibly less.

As for the vein to use, I'm pretty sure that the heroin section has plenty of threads on heroin basics, IV basics, and tips for IVing, so you can just read through that. Most people choose the largest vein near the crook of the arm. If you use the median cubital vein, seen below, you are not in much danger of hitting the artery, which is deeper. Also, if you check the blood before IVing, you'll be able to tell whether you hit a vein or not, as venous blood is much darker, less pressurized, and not frothy.

You are actually in much greater danger of hitting an artery on the back of your hand, not to mention the veins are smaller, so it's easier to miss, hit a nerve, get an unpleasant histamine reaction, and so on. Back of the hand is not a site recommended for IV beginners. Generally you want a site that is closer to the heart, not one that is far from it.

However all this is covered in other threads, so just use the search engine for more on IVing.

Source for Heroin BA: Klous, M.G., et al. (2005). Pharmacokinetic comparisons of two methods of heroin smoking: "Chasing the dragon" versus the use of a heating device. European Neuropsychopharmacology, 15, 263-269.

ALSO, if anyone wants to read the original Klous et al. document, I uploaded it to the "opiate and opioid drug use" section of the DF documents for your reading pleasure.

Post Quality Evaluations:
brilliant information straight to the point
great harm reduction advice.
very helpful! thanks for adding the image as well.

Last edited by Soma Cruz; 17-10-2012 at 04:21. Reason: Uploaded Klous et al to DF dox
  #3  
Old 16-10-2012, 22:47
westie420uk westie420uk is offline
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Re: IV Heroin - Risk vs Reward info requested

Check out this thread on Injecting Heroin, Vein Problems & Safety Advice for new users
http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28116
You should get the feeling you are after from IVing, but i would start with a small dose & work your way up so as not to go over. Also do you always get your gear from the same contact? Where i live there sre at least 10 dealers who i have access to. Some work together & sell the same product, but even then the strength can vary of each batch.
Just stay safe & ALWAYS use clean equipment.
  #4  
Old 16-10-2012, 23:12
kailey_elise Gold member kailey_elise is offline
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Re: IV Heroin - Risk vs Reward info requested

SC's right - the back of the hand is more dangerous in terms of hitting things you don't want, as well as increasing the chances of missed hits, etc. The veins there are thinner than the ones in the crook of your elbow. They LOOK bigger/better/juicier, but that's just cuz the skin there is thinner & they are closer to the surface.

If you're dead set on IVing, make sure to have clean works, and go for the crook of the arm - it's the most common spot for blood draws for a reason. There's actually 3 easy-to-hit spots in the crease there, all in a horizontal line.

Fix up what you think is an appropriate amount to inject - then only draw up & do half of it at first. Make sure to have an experienced user around that you know won't just run away if you go out. Seriously, people with heavy habits via smoking or snorting have gone over on very tiny amounts administered via IV. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE be extremely careful!!!

~Kailey
  #5  
Old 16-10-2012, 23:43
dihydromoron dihydromoron is offline
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Re: IV Heroin - Risk vs Reward info requested

thanks for the replies guys, and for all the sensible advice
I have access to sterile works and wouldnt use anything but

Also I was planning on using the crook of my arm, but I thought I felt a pulse
which kinda put me off thinking it was an artery

I was going to do half the amount, but what kailey elise said has kinda scared me
into maybe doing 1/4, even though I do have quite a high tolerance being on 70mgs
methadone daily.

Say I cook it all up, fill the syringe, register and then shoot half and find its not enough
will the gear in the syringe still be OK to use with a new needle or does it 'set' in some way?
  #6  
Old 16-10-2012, 23:53
westie420uk westie420uk is offline
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Re: IV Heroin - Risk vs Reward info requested

Another reason not to go in the back of your and is its a very easy place for others to see. Signs of drug use such as track marks, missed & bruising will be very noticeable to others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dihydromoron View Post
I was going to do half the amount, but what kailey elise said has kinda scared me
into maybe doing 1/4, even though I do have quite a high tolerance being on 70mgs
methadone daily.
Then deffo start with a low does. Being on methadone could increase the risk of overdose.
  #7  
Old 17-10-2012, 00:20
dihydromoron dihydromoron is offline
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Re: IV Heroin - Risk vs Reward info requested

yeah I hadnt thought of the risk of methadone either..
Thanks for all the input, ive decided that im going to be responsible
and since im on my own im not going to IV it, too risky and silly
If I can find some foil then ill just chase it, if not ill wait

I think me not feeling my first IV attempt of heroin was a
blessing in disguise, logically why would I want to start down a road
most people on it wish theyd never gone down at all, im lucky in that
i have the choice, thank you for all your replies, I think youve helped me
make a good decision, or rather avoid a destructive one. thanks guys
PLEASE GOD LET THERE BE SOME CLEAN FOIL!!! haha
  #8  
Old 17-10-2012, 02:14
Soma Cruz Soma Cruz is offline
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Re: IV Heroin - Risk vs Reward info requested

Good thing you mentioned the methadone! There is a lot of talk about methadone blocking the effects of shorter-acting opioids like heroin, but they are both full agonists at the mu receptor. Meaning, they will have an additive effect on your body even if the euphoria is blocked. The risk of overdose becomes very real when combining opioids, especially if one of them is IV'd.

Sounds like you made a good decision. As someone that has been using IV heroin for 5 years or so, I can tell you that the difference, dependence and lifestyle-wise, between smoking and shooting is as far as the gap between heaven and earth. You're much more likely to fall into a pattern of constant use, running out of money, committing crimes, and so on when shooting, not to mention that the withdrawals will be worse as your tolerance goes up much more quickly. If you were to IV, reducing the dosage to 1/4th sounds like a smart idea; my initial advice to cut it in half was based on me not knowing you were already taking a fairly high dose of methadone.

Anyway, you seem to have your head on straight, OP, way to make a good choice for yourself and your future. Like you said, not having your first IV attempt succeed was probably a blessing in disguise.
  #9  
Old 17-10-2012, 11:13
dihydromoron dihydromoron is offline
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Re: IV Heroin - Risk vs Reward info requested

Thanks again guys, all of you have given fair advice
I didn't even smoke it last night, even though I found
Some foil as it was getting late and would have been a waste

Surprise surprise the urge to IV it is back, silly i know
I just really want to experience it properly, and never have done
By smoking it (even when ran by a pro) just to feel the rush

I think the fact I can't obtain it on my own, and wont be seeing the person
Who introduced me to it for a while means the biggest risk is my bad technique
Rather than starting a daily habit

Actually, doesn't it usually take higher doses than normal to displace the tightly bound
Methadone from the receptors coz of the controversial blocking effect?

Or does IV ing it somehow get around this?
  #10  
Old 17-10-2012, 11:48
Shigeru Shigeru is offline
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Re: IV Heroin - Risk vs Reward info requested

Quote:
Originally Posted by dihydromoron View Post
Surprise surprise the urge to IV it is back, silly i know
I just really want to experience it properly, and never have done
By smoking it (even when ran by a pro) just to feel the rush

*snip*

thanks for the replies guys, and for all the sensible advice
I have access to sterile works and wouldnt use anything but
Good luck with that. When I started using IV drugs 40 years ago I was very careful and the thought of using anything but a nice clean rig would never have entered my mind. In fact, I don't know anyone that ever thought anything different when they started out. But then, I don't know anyone that thought they were going to end up a junkie when they started getting high either.

When you're fucked up or strung out all that seems to take a back seat and I've had Hepatitis B, C, and D from IV drug use since then. My advise would be not to get started shooting up drugs. It's has the potential to lead you down roads you may not have even considered yet and few of them have a good end.
  #11  
Old 17-10-2012, 15:04
Helene Gold member Helene is offline
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Re: IV Heroin - Risk vs Reward info requested

Dihydromoron, hello!

A few thoughts:

If one starts injecting heroin prior to having developed a physical addiction/ dependence on the stuff, one risks two rather serious consequences:

Firstly, obviously, you're putting yourself at a high risk of overdose. You've already rather sensibly identified that attempting to experiment with IV use alone would be foolhardy, to say the least. I know a lot of people who OD'd the first time they hit up; usually non-fatal, but only because there were quick-thinking others present who acted appropriately and call for medical assistance.

Now I know you stated that you are on a methadone script (how did this come about, by the way?) and so already have a tolerance to opiates, but a lot of those people I know included those who have had habits for years smoking the stuff. So that risk is always there. But it can be managed and reduced by not injecting alone, researching IV technique, being very realistic with yourself about tolerance levels and actual consumption, and using a very small amount for a starting dosage.

However, this doesn't ensure against the second (and more likely) serious consequence: developing a physical dependance. Don't underestimate the impact that injecting makes on the speed at which a habit, tolerance and dependance develop; it increases it exponentially, compared to if one continued to smoke gear. You state that you feel this risk is lessened for you because you rarely see the one current source/ connection to heroin you know. This can change very quickly. If you want to find heroin, trust me, you will find it.

Again, I'm unsure as to your history re. the methadone, previous opiate addiction etc, so it might be the case that this doesn't concern you so much. But it's a lot easier to reduce off 70mg of methadone a day, than 70mg of methadone plus a fuck off huge IV smack habit. That doubling up has been the bane of many addict's lives, not being able to ever feel well with only one drug, and not the other.

Going back to your original query re. the rush associated with IV use - yes, there's more of an intense initial rush. But, and this is something that it took me many years to actually work out, it does appear to be the case that you can get more 'legs' out of smoking heroin when it comes to actually gauchiness/ nodding. It can last longer, with a stronger gouch. Most people start injecting when they can't afford to keep up their habits through smoking. Years later, when they've totally fucked all their veins up, a lot of people go back to smoking it (with great difficulty, and only when presented with no other alternative but to quit completely). And they are surprised to be, well, pleasantly surprised. But this illustrates just how much of a commitment for the long haul it is to start IV-ing. Many people don't stop until they can't do it any more. Additionally, I've know quite a few occasional heroin users who smoke the stuff - can't think of any who IV it though.

Over ten years since I first tried the drug, I've got scars all over my arms from IV use, I've lost friends through ODs, known people lose legs, contract Hep C etc. I've witnessed my boyfriend suffer ODs and deep vein thromboses, seen many missed hits that turned into infected abscesses...Although I've been rather lucky in the infection department myself (due in no small part to an obsessive deference to good IV practice) I've still ended up with horrible scars and collapsed veins. That's just due to too much hitting up, good practice can only postpone this.

Basically, if I could go back and just change one thing, in all honesty it probably wouldn't be to have not tried heroin in the first place; I had some good times (albeit with some terrible times as well), but made it through the other side. I do however regret having ever started injecting.

Draw your own conclusions!

Good luck.

Helene added 32 Minutes and 58 Seconds later...

An afterthought just came to me:

Current purity levels of heroin could also be a relevant point to consider. I DO NOT want to start a discussion about relative purity levels of heroin, except to say that if one starts injecting heroin that is of a lower than average purity (as anecdotal reports imply is commonplace at street level in certain countries currently) then there is the huge added risk of what happens when the new IV user suddenly comes across some decent gear, i.e. risk of overdose. Which is why it's important to be cautious with each new batch of heroin, if possible to smoke a bit first to gauge strength etc.

However this doesn't necessarily prevent against that other risk, the unknown additives chucked in to poor quality drugs to up the effects; often, with heroin, only becoming dangerously apparent when injected.

But this is the paradox, I guess, in that during such poor purity climates more people are going to be turned towards IV use when they're not achieving the desired effects from smoking.

To start injecting heroin in a climate where the quality and purity is in as constant a state of flux as it appears to be at present is probably more dangerous than it was back when this little creature and her mates all started messing about with it.

Post Quality Evaluations:
Fair, non-biased quality advice
Very helpful

Last edited by Helene; 17-10-2012 at 15:04. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #12  
Old 17-10-2012, 15:57
Kev 94 Kev 94 is offline
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Re: IV Heroin - Risk vs Reward info requested

Hello group, well dihydro, Swim smokes gear and dosent have a script swim smokes about a bag every 3 days. Now i wrote a thread about digging heres the link http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=191586

Iving was on swims mind all the time when he was smoking he just wanted to feel the notorius rush that people say you get with heroin. If you lose because of toklerance the smack nod then you want to iv even more. I would say leave the pin alone its the best decision you can make and you dont want to be kicking yourself later in life for as bad decision especisally a major one which it is of digging smack,,its a heavy game and im glad im not in it to play..

Take Care

Kev..
  #13  
Old 17-10-2012, 18:26
dihydromoron dihydromoron is offline
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Re: IV Heroin - Risk vs Reward info requested

Well after a lot of thinking, I decided not to IV the gear
So i smoked the lot on the last bit of foil I could find, and
while I wouldnt say I feel like im in heaven, I do feel nice
And actually I love the taste of smoking gear so much
id say thats reason enough not to start digging.
  #14  
Old 17-10-2012, 18:34
Kev 94 Kev 94 is offline
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Re: IV Heroin - Risk vs Reward info requested

Respect dihydrmoron, I love the taste of gear as well and the process of just enjoying smoking it and the guaranteed promise of the hit without the stress and worry about finding a vein, missing the vein,,hitting a artery. hitting bone or hitting a nerve,,yeah a good decsion is to leave the pin alone,,theres just to much negativaty which comes with digging let alone digging brown!!!

Take Care...

Kev..
  #15  
Old 17-10-2012, 20:10
dihydromoron dihydromoron is offline
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Re: IV Heroin - Risk vs Reward info requested

thanks kev
Chances are im not going to be around any gear for a while
the real test is the fact ill probably do a moderate smack rattle
because thinking about it, my use has been almost daily for about
a month, at least ive got 70mg methadone to ease it I suppose
  #16  
Old 17-10-2012, 22:40
Druganaught Druganaught is offline
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Re: IV Heroin - Risk vs Reward info requested

Quote:
Originally Posted by dihydromoron View Post
Hi guys

I would like an answer to a puzzling question, if possible leaving morals/ethics etc aside

Ive smoked UK white powder heroin (the kind that goes brown and sticky when heated) on foil
several times over the last few months, sometimes smoking 1 or 2 lines, sometimes smoking 2 or 3 bags

Only twice have I ever felt any euphoria from it, usually I feel nothing, sometimes it just gets rid of the
withdrawals but the 2 times I did feel good was because I smoked a large amount of good gear.

So my question:

If I IV inject a smaller amount than it took to feel euphoric when smoked, will I get the feelings I so desire i.e the rush, euphoria etc?

I know very well the risks involved and have IV'd myself once before around 2 weeks ago, definitely got it into the vein but the gear was crap and it was a tiny amount so I felt nothing.

Also where would you say the best vein to go for is for someone with slightly shakey hands and no prior experience?

Im thinking back of hand because it worked before.

I would try the inside of my arm, but im scared that there is an artery there which of course I want to avoid at ALL COSTS

Hope someone with knowledge can help as Ive only got 1 shot at this and I want to get it right, be a long time before I can get anywhere near Heroin again and I dont want to waste my last go.

thanks in advance, I hope someone gets back to me

Dihydro
To cut a long story short. I chased some H over a year ago and had an incredibly euphoric experience and obsessed about it for weeks after. Over the last few months I've been considering getting hold of a bit more which resulted in me recklessly getting hold of a half g last week.

I tried to pin the first shot but couldn't hit the planned vein so just plugged it. After that, I plugged double that dose and still got nothing. Meanwhile I found a couple of nice veins so for some unknown reason weighed out 50mg (which having looked up Erowid since turns out to be a very high dose) and shot it. Had a bit of a rush but no euphoria. Started to feel a bit sick and was so a few times after when I just went to lay for the afternoon where I felt fine, just lacking euphoria.

In subsequent days I tried smoking a lot of it and stuck a fair bit in my neck though I had no real preference with either ROA and felt no worthwhile benefit with either (ignoring the brief and indifferent IV rush). so after I got bored of it, I posted the last bit of gear to a junky friend of mine to get her opinion. I suspect the problem is me but I'll no in a few days. Planned it, done it, now to forget about it.

Maybe some food for thought here op. If you were to ask my advice, I'd advise against it but I'd do it anyway. All the best of luck.

Oh and my easiest veins to hit (as I can't hit my arms) at the start were on my feet and ankles but ethylphenidate put paid to those.

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