Health - Ketamine brain damage/ after effects/ harm reduction

[Niteflights]

I am very curious regarding anyone's experience with long term use of ketamine. It seems that a significant amount of contradictory data exists on this subject. Some of the most notable ketamine proponents (John Lilly, Marica Moore, DM Turner) seemed to have suffered severe personality shifts to say the least, (Turner drowned in his bathtub on K and Moore froze to death after a massive overdose/suicide).

The only study I am aware of documenting ketamines pharmacological danger is Olney's writings on his now infamous lesions. Apparently everyone is eager to dismiss these findings in human scenarios but I believe they are still relevant. What compounds the issue is that several substances have been found to prevent Olney's lesions (LSD, barbs) but little to no information is available on the dosages and modalities.

The reason I ask is because a certain SWIM has obtained a virtually unlimited supply of pure ketamine. After a several week IM binge (3 times/day) he quit entirely and disposed of the supply. Although this was several months ago, SWIM indicates that he has not felt normal since. Feelings of depression are common as well as poor attention capacity and memory. Most noticeable is rare occasions when SWIM smokes cannibas and rather than classic high experiences a strong disassociate state resembling low dose ketamine.

I am reading Karl Jansen's excellent book Ketamine Dreams and Realities but it seems Jansen like most ketamine proponents is so enamored with the substance that he tends to dismiss it potential long term damage.

One aspect that is certainly relevant is the permanent tolerance that many report after repeated ketamine use. Even after abstaining from use for a year or more, upon next use it can still be difficult or impossible to induce a full fledged k-hole experience even with massive doses. Clearly some permanent physiological change is taking place.

It seems ketamine deserves some harm reduction discussion/research on the level that MDMA has received in the past couple of years. One close individual has become an absolute kook after continual rampant abuse.

Any input from long term ketamine users or researchers is much appreciated.

Cheers,
Niteflights

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good questions on long term use of Ketamine

[Fantasian]

I wish i could add more to this. SWIFantasian's experiences of ketamine are somewhat limited. I would like to point out however, with virtually any drug use ever that i have seen in SWIFantasian there is about a week - 2 week after effect where SWIFantasian readapts back to baseline. I have noted this with opiates, Benzodiazapines, Magic mushrooms and Ketamine among others. Im not sure whether this relates to what your thinking but i hope my information helped.

On a side note there is masses of information at erowid and on google conflicting with Olney's lesions and their viablitiy. As to whether LSD and barbituates have an effect on that i've really no idea.

[fastandbulbous]

Psychological damage - I don't think you'll get any arguements from anybody who's either taken or had contact with people who have taken ketamine. Heavy users seem to develop some really fucking strange ideas as to the forces at work in the 'normal world', but I don't think there's any clear cut evidence of actual physical damage (ie neurotoxicity) associated with ketamine.

That said, I think the possible psychological changes that can happen with prolonged, sustained ketamine abuse are enough to make anyone considering it's use sit up and take notice. My personal use of ketamine is of the order of 1-2g per month, generally consumed over the space of one extended weekend (via IM route) and I have no intention of increasing it anytime soon (although access to an unlimited supply would present a huge exercise in self control). People who consume it on an everyday basis (I've seen some reports of up to 2g/day over a several week period) are definitely storing up a whole load of psychological problems for later - some that because of a huge change in their internal model of the world can take years to get back to their pre-ketamine state

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good informative post

[Nagognog2]

Do you mean to infer that the known universe is not held in a steady-state of glued murals being rotated by gnomes that live on the North Pole?! Their goes my Phd!

Reputation Comments on this post:

[smoggy32]

Sorry if this doesnt really answer the post but it seems relavent to me..

I have always had the believe that there are some risks of permenant damage to some part of your body when taking drugs of any kind. To think that you can introduce substances, especially for recreational purposes, into the body and not be exposed to some risk is naive.

If you use drugs heavily for prolonged periods you increase your exposure to such risks. Most substances have a threshold that if u pass it there will be damage to the body. This occurs with water, sugar and loads of usually harmless sucbstances....drug users rarely have the ability to find out if any permenant after effects are caused by actual physical damage or are physchological.

I think that in the big scheme of thing Ketamine is one of the safer substance a person can take...it must be fairly safe because the medical profession advocate its use (not recreationaly).

[geezaman]

not quite what niteflights was looking for SWIM knows but SWIM couldn't resist mentioning the last episode in season 2 of House shown in the UK last thursday brushed by the topic of K and brain damage. Also SWIM has a friend who had a 24h K binge the first hour including SWIMs friends 1st experience of K, in between taking more through this period and in the hour following the binge SWIMs friend also ate 2 pounds of sausage, 1 of bacon and 2 of steak and nothing else, SWIMs friend has never seemed quite the same since. His binge happened a few months ago now.

[enquirewithin]

(Turner drowned in his bathtub on K and Moore froze to death after a massive overdose/suicide).

It seems as if Turner fell into his bath after taking a shot of ketamine (which is not very intelligent). Marcia Moore used to sit under a tree to prevent her worried husband knowing she was taking ketamine. I doubt she overdosed-- she must have had a significant tolerance! Neither case seems like suicide.

The only study I am aware of documenting ketamines pharmacological danger is Olney's writings on his now infamous lesions. Apparently everyone is eager to dismiss these findings in human scenarios but I believe they are still relevant. What compounds the issue is that several substances have been found to prevent Olney's lesions (LSD, barbs) but little to no information is available on the dosages and modalities.

This comes from William White's FAQ on dissociatives, which he later retracted.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Funny, sitting under tree so not to look high

[Niteflights]

Reason topic was posted was I have read a great deal of literature promoting the remarkable physical safety of ketamine and it's lack of harmful affects even at massive anaesthetic doses. Olney found infamous lesions however they are now widely disputed as likely to occur in humans. To top it off ketamine guru Karl Jansen, possibly the most knowledgeable human regarding the substance seems to almost entirely reject the possibility of physical damage. Although his book Ketamine Dreams and Realities is quite excellent and thorough, I still could not help but feel his seeming devotion to the substance at times colored his objectivity in regards to it's potential harmful effects.

I know one SWIM who engaged in a minor league recreational binge with IM K 100mg 3-4 times a day for several days, a relatively moderate binge according to popular literature. However by end of binge SWIM experienced a very distinct and intense literally burnt (read: not burned out) feeling on surface of cerebral cortex as well as accompanying mental disturbances and loss of memory and considerable mental functions. Condition seemed to persist for 1 month after abstinence period, after which SWIM tested K once again, and after one single administration, the entire suite of disturbances returned as if no break period had passed.

SWIM has long term (decades) of well researched and at times heavy experience with dozens of tryptamines, DXM, as well as most of the RCs that have hit the market and has never experienced the disconcerting after affects of repeated ketamine use. This is particularly distressing to SWIM as he finds ketamine to be among most enjoyable of compounds yet encountered. No wonder it was bane of such luminaries as DM Turner.

Despite popular defense of ketamine's safety, it appears that reports are beginning to trickle in regarding it's neurotoxic potentials:

Effect of Ketamine on Dendritic Arbor Development and Survival of Immature GABAergic Neurons In Vitro
http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi...tract/91/2/540

Since history tells us that this substance will contine to be used regardless of toxicological findings, I think it would prudent to develop at least a basic list of harm reduction tactics for employment with ketamine use. Of obvious advantage would be a method to increase systemic elimination of the norketamine metabolite after concentrated use periods, which tend to persist in urine for days to weeks after use.

Cheers,
Niteflights

[enquirewithin]

Ketamine may or may not have some neurotoxic qualities, but the effects you are talking about may well me psychological rather than physical. Ketamine is well known for being a very safe anesthetic, even for children (in much larger doses that you would take recreationally)-- it was the 'emergence reactions' not neurotoxicty which have made it less widely used in medicine.

[Niteflights]

One problem with the commonly cited safety of ketamine use in anestasia is that it is only administered once or perhaps a few times over the course of treatment. In contrast, recreational ketamine use tends to be continual, in many cases several times per day, for months, years or until the supply is exhausted.

Anyone who has fallen in to the repeated use trap can attest that significant mental disturbances are common. Disturbances appear to be of of the organic not the psychological variety although the latter is common as well.

Cheers,
Niteflights

[enquirewithin]

Not everyone is Lilly or Moore. Some people can teake ketamine in a more controlled manner!

If ketamine does produce 'organic' damage it is not yet documented.