Water from the gutter is better than the puddle

[Beltane]

Here's a post that may spark some interesting opinions. BTW, SWIM got the above qoute out a really good booklet from my local needle exchange.

I love this site, and I think one of the ways that the users could make it even better would be to consciously keep in mind that not everyone is 100% safe all the time. Most people here are drug users; sometimes that's the way it goes.

To advocate and eludicate on safety is helpful to many, but not at the cost of ignoring an initial question that deals with what the majority deam "impropoer."

Example: How do you sharpen points, with a matchbook or with a nailfile?

Typical answer: Always use new points.

Is this good advice? Yes. Does it address the question? No. So is it really all that helpful, i.e. do we think the person wouldn't use a fresh point if they could?

Also, when a knowledgeable boardmember feels the need to point out that a certain behavior is perhaps dangerous, some sort of scale might be nice. Mixing H with water from a home tap (vs. sterile water) is a danger factor of 2, water from a front yard hose might be a 4, water from the front/rear of a toilet may be 7/5 and then, of course, water from a running gutter is always better than water from a standing puddle.

SWIM likes to see people advocating the safest methods possible, but if a person doesn't have access to that method for whatever reason, then the safest thing for them is, if they are determined to do it, to get the best info we as board members have on the subject.

SWIM's asked several questions that were completely skipped over in favor of lectures on the proper use of gear and equipment. This actaully way helpful in the long run, but in the short run helped not at all, and I think that's where we as a group can further increase the benefit if this forum.

Thanks-

- Beltane

Reputation Comments on this post:

	good post, this swim feels the same way sometimes.
	Ding! Fair points well made!
	very good message, helpful harm-reduction advice
	Not sure I completely agree, but good discussion.
	nice points raised here. hopefully these ideas can reduce some harm!
	I totally agree. When you have a problem is not a lecture that you want to hear
	wholeheartedly agree - tre2005be
	much needed post, nice one
	I wish I could give you more points for this thread I hope everyone on DF reads this
	excelent thread, please maintain it
	really excellent point, provoked a great thread

[Beltane]

OK, SWIM expected some rep dings from this one, but he stands by his position that this is _not_ bullshit.

If a person is going to use a needle 20 times in a row, even after it's pointed out that each point should only be used once, then either boot him from the board or give him whatever helpful info you have after you're finished preaching. _The Heroin User's Guide_, one of SWIM's favorite books on the subject, has a section on how to sharpen points. Now SWIM's read this and could share this knowledge with this politically incorrect unsafe heathen-type individual, or would it be better to just parrot into about Needle Exchanges?

Also, SWIM feels strongly that there should be some context given when someone says something is bad. Mixing crack with lemon juice is, by most accounts bad, but seriously with the number of health care professionals SWIM has heard otherwise from, he has to say that it's like a 3 or 4/10 bad, Whereas using the same poing 20 times is, in SWIM's opinion, more like 8 or 9 bad. So many people around here say stuff is bad or wrong without giving context that I imagine, like SWIM at times, they just tune it out. Now that's no good if something is really, really bad.

So rep dingers feel free to PM too for further discussion-

- Beltane

Reputation Comments on this post:

No one lives forever, just as long as we can.

[old hippie 56]

Back when this swim was doing the iv deal, he always had some 800 grit sandpaper in his wallet to sharpen his points. We all know that we should use fresh supplies, but sometimes they are not available.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Nice chime in on needle availability

[Beltane]

Big-ups to you! My point exactaly. Some information that gets shared on this board might be "bad." Sometimes it's best to answer someone's question from a harm reduction standpoint _as it pertains to them._ Not everyone is 100% safe and clean. There's value added by recognizing where a person is at and then speaking to them first at that level, then mention the white lab coat stuff.

What kind of info is this: some people use match books to sharpen their points when they get dull. It's true info, and it's useful info for someone who would just use an even duller needle.

Sure it's cool to mention needle exchanges, and maybe someday this person will check one out, but to not share the matchbook info in the interim is like saying that this person's issue (since they don't use a NE and clean needle every time) is beneath me.

SWIM posts this riding the K train, please make allowances.

- Beltane

[adzket]

some sensible advice, as you say most users of any substance no how to safly and reduce harm to them selfs but are not always in a posistion too.

[radiometer]

I gave a postive rep rating for this thread.

A major part of harm reduction, a goal of this forum in my opinion, is to meet people where they are at. And I think it's possible to answer a question such as Beltane's hypothetical question regarding needle-sharpening in a manner which both directly answers the question as well as advises that fresh needles are by far the safest choice, in a respectful manner.

I used to have a signature that read "Buy a damned scale you idiot" or something, but I realized over time that such a message would not cause an idiot to buy a scale.

[Nagognog2]

That's when you can try reverse-psych: You're Too Fucking Stupid To Use A Good Scale EVEN If You Could Afford One!

Reputation Comments on this post:

LOL that was funny i tell you hwhat!!

[CrookedEye]

Swim doesn't have any problem with anyone doing any drugs they choose, even though he once had a long, rough addiction to opiates. He will always willing answer any questions he can, that can add to the safety/responsible use of any drug.. People, aren't going to not do something, especially when they are set on it, and just looking for an optimal way.. One can offer advice, but demonizing some drug or some person because of your prejudices is no better than what most governments are doing, IMO...

[Beltane]

Thank you CE; exactly my point. So SWIY has a history with opiates. So SWIY may have some useful info to offer should a particularly dicey question such as "so, how do I do a shot in the neck?" be asked.

Now this is a dicey question because the first thing most people would want to say, and rightly so, is that one should almost certainly NOT do this under any circumstances. And yet SWIM knows from reading and watching documentaries that some people do this. So there probably is an answer to the question that would help the person who asked the question do something very dangerous a bit more safely. SWIM just believes that BOTH pieces of info should be shared, however dicey, and that the person offering the 'questionable' info should not in any way be viewed as advocating such behavior. If the only advice given to the above hypothetical question is that such a thing should not be done, and the person goes on to do it without ANY harm reduction advice regarding the practice, then this site has failed, in SWIM's opinion, to make the world more safe for people who chose to use drugs.

- Beltane

[old hippie 56]

This swim seen that particular shot done before, the girl had to use a mirror and needed help pushing the plunger. Swim ain't saying one person can't do it alone but it looked like a difficult location.

[CrookedEye]

Swim has, unfortunately, shot in his jugular, his forehead, his groin area, his feet, hands, arms, chest, various veins in his neck, and toes.. He has a scar on his foot from a miss and infection, and has almost no visible veins, anymore.. Some have healed, but even his jugular doesn't bulge out like it used to, so people advising not to do it, isn't necessarily a bad thing.. Swim doesn't honestly know what good advice there is on shooting in ones jugular, besides, don't miss, and use fresh clean needles (proper injection technique, as anywhere on the body)..

Reputation Comments on this post:

I was thinking the same

[Beltane]

SWIM saw a guy do a jugular shot on an H documentary once, that's where the thought came from. This guy used a mirror and had little to no trouble. He seemed like he'd had plenty of practice tho.

- Beltane

[INodHardOhYeah]

Are you refering to "Black Tar Heroin"? Great movie, I'd reccomend it to everyone.

[VincentVan]

The veins on the neck are not different from those in other places , they can be used if they are well visible and look easy to catch.
Just remember that to hide the needle marks on the neck is going to be much harder; long sleeves are easier to live with than turtlenecks in hot summer days.
SWIM has never tried the groin area ( he finds the thought particularly unpleasant) but once he tried to shoot on a foot to see what it was like and he regretted it so much that he has never done it again. It was an extremely painful experience, probably because of the high concentration of nerve terminals in the area.
To shoot on the neck, without any help, did´nt give to SWIM any particular problem, beside a very evident mark that turned at first read, then indigo, deep purple ,yellow, pink, cremisi etc. changing hue every bloody day but not getting any smaller for what I remember as a very long time.
That´s why SWIM never did it again.
Thanks God where SWIM lives new needles are free and very easy to come by at any time of the day or the night and this alouded him to still have serviceable veins on his arms after more than 20 years of use.
This thread however made me kind of curious:
- What is the strangest place you have heard it has been used for injecting dope? And apart for the arms (from the shoulders to the wrists) what is the most used body part?-
Maybe we could start a pool.

VV.

[Imnmbr1]

How's about directly into a vein in a hardened penis?! Supposedly it was achieved but the recipient didn't report any better rush/feeling from doing it thataway.

[radiometer]

This thread started off well as a discussion of harm-reduction technique on internet discussion boards, but it has seriously gone off-topic. Please start a new thread in the appropriate place to discuss where to inject.

[VincentVan]

I don´t think it´s so off topic, after all a place to inject where it could be easier to hide the needle marks it is a form of damage reduction, and so is my entry on why I would suggest to avoid the feet.
Besides I totally agree with Beltane: the all concept of damage reduction is strictly dependent on the situations and the problems you are facing in a determined moment. If you lack the ideal instruments then you may start to wander what is the "less worst" substitute for them, but to talk about a damage reduction in general , it seems to me a difficult thing to do if you don´t want to keep repeating the usual banalities like use new needles, clean water , etc.-; Of course I would be happy to be proved wrong and to find myself reading some great ideas I never thought about.

As for Imnmbr idea of the hardened penis I find it hard to belive; at least I know that if I would try to puncture my thing with a needle he would immediatly make himself as little and inconspicous as possible.
For me the best place to hide marks is just under the shoulder, at the top of the bicep, because even the short sleeves of a T shirt would cover that spot.
Or at least I have´nt been able to find anywhere better.
I have heard of someone doing it under the tongue but I´m kind of skeptic; do you think it´s possible?

VV.

[old hippie 56]

Speaking of harm-reduction, shooting dope into your dick is a really bad idea. Too many things could go wrong, read about a guy in Houston that done this with coke, missed a little bit. Week later he was dead, after 6 days of severe pain due to gangrene setting up in his lower half.

[~lostgurl~]

Boil water to sterilize it if you dont have sterile bottle water, but make sure it has cooled down properly before injecting as warm/hot water can cause blood to coagulate. If you don't have access to correct filter, use 100% cotton products, cigarette filters (not from a tailer made) work well, sometimes when using cotton buds the cotton seperates and the needle can go right through it which defeats the purpose.

Last night SWIM went to needle exchange, which is a bit of a drive so SWIM buys as many needles as she can afford so that she doesn't have to make this drive too often. Anyway, last night SWIM needed to make this trip but was pretty broke - even though they are cheap, so SWIM printed out a couple of articles on addiction and effects of iv drug use, then printed 10 copies of UYB harm reduction method. SWIM then did a deal with the guy at the exchange and got 4X as many pics as SWIM could afford by giving him the printouts, and the guy thought it was great, he said the UYB's would go in a second so he was gonna make some more copies, and he got a real laugh at the whole deal cause usually if people can't afford them they just go and ask for free ones. SWIM made his night, he made SWIMS night and SWIM has lots of new/clean pics even though SWIM thought she couldn't afford them.
How often does SWIYorM manage to come up with money for drugs they want even though they are broke....... Addicts are clever, and with a bit of thinking.... where there is will, there is a way.
As much as everyone would love to be 100% safe when injecting drugs, that is just not possible, it is not even possible with other methods of drug use, there will always be risks and some peoples circumstances have more risk factors than others. SWIM thinks Beltane has made some very valid and important points in this thread and she thinks it's great that SWIMs can share experiences open and honestly, this is the real world and it is not black and white and advice is better than judgement. Great post Beltane!

[VincentVan]

Gangrene , blood poisoning and tissue necrosis can happen in any part of the body specially if you are weak and your immunosystem is debilitated for whatever reason.
Before diyng of it, however the symptoms of this kind of pathology (blackening of the body part or the veins, agonizing pain, high fever, etc) would drive any sane person to seek some form of medical help, and if the patient is treated in time, usually with an IV therapy of specific antibiotics, he would totally recover in a few days time.
Anyway ,though I would´nt suggest to anybody to try shooting in his penis, I have heard that not so long ago, before the advent of viagra and similar treatments, one of the most used remedies against impotence was the injection into the penis of a phial of papaverine, which is an opiate too.
The story of that guy in Huston is probably incomplete, maybe his immunosystem was already devastated by AIDS, or he died for some other reason altogether.
Where did you read it OldHippie?
VV.

[old hippie 56]

If swim remembers correctly, the Houston Post, 1988 or 89. Don't know why that story stuck with swim, but he hadn't forgot it.

[INodHardOhYeah]

Originally Posted by Laura76

If you don't have access to correct filter, use 100% cotton products, cigarette filters (not from a tailer made) work well

This is bad advice, while it is very common to use cigarette filters it is not safe. Particles from the cigarette filter can easily be drawn back into the rig and injected, possibly resulting in serious problems.

[VincentVan]

SWIM does not agree with INodHard...
He has always used cig´s filters.
I´m examining one right now and I really can´t see how it could brake and end up in a needle once it´s rolled up a little.
They are made of 100% cellulose.
The danger is with cotton because it tends to disintegrate in extremely thin threads and even worse with wool.
In any case use a filter! Almost any (clean) filter is better than nothing.

VV.

[~lostgurl~]

Originally Posted by INodHardOhYeah

This is bad advice, while it is very common to use cigarette filters it is not safe. Particles from the cigarette filter can easily be drawn back into the rig and injected, possibly resulting in serious problems.

Some cigarette filters contain glass fibres, but there are 100% cotton filters that do not. In swims nine years of iv experience (which she has mainly used ciggie filters or cotton buds) she has never had a dirty hit. What are the "particles" you refer to and what are "serious problems resulting"?

A question for everybody - what does SWIY use to filter drugs? And what has SWIY used in past?

[Bajeda]

Originally Posted by Laura76

Some cigarette filters contain glass fibres, but there are 100% cotton filters that do not. In swims nine years of iv experience (which she has mainly used ciggie filters or cotton buds) she has never had a dirty hit. What are the "particles" you refer to and what are "serious problems resulting"?

Swim thinks the person was talking about the glass fibres that are in some cigarette filters (Marlboro lights is a big suspect). Thats the most logical explanation.


Does anyone know of a study or article of some kind that discusses the practice of putting glass fibres in cigarette filters?