AA: is swim being brainwashed?

[stoneinfocus]

Originally Posted by Klaus

ALCOHOLISM IS A DRUG ADDICTION BECAUSE ALCOHOL IS A DRUG.

As swim said swim works in healthcare and swim finds it ridiculous that Drugs and Alcohol are treated differently in th UK.

Not only in the UK!
In bavaria it´s called a basic food stuff, and the biggest political party, which is the federal sister party of the biggest national conservative party is preaching a drug-free society, which they´re fighting for while stemming the worlds larges bear-mugs on the oktober fest.

they´re doing massive interventions and are working out the non-existing good sites of alcohol big time in media, while cleanign up the mess it made, quickly, with hospitalisation, etc. ... while that, you see heroin addicts dying in the streets, spreading com-plet-ly unnecessary the most deadliest deseas, only because they´re not getting clean 10$ worth stuff, leagally, like their much worse alcohol- addicted companions, even being respected for their social drinking abilities, in politics or business, mostly public servants, or in the clinical top-positions or tv-stations.

[AntiAimer]

There's a Penn and Tellers:Bullshit about this....and knowing people who've been to AA meeting and reading what they actually do at these meetings. I must agree. They say religion and government must not intervene yet, where does a DUI of alcohol violater go....Mandatory AA meetings. They teach you to FIND GOD. Nough said.

[mick mouse]

SWIM has chaired over 2000 AA/NA meetings, developed and implemented behavioural modification programs, helped buddies who O.D.'d walk it off, been there when friends cried their eyes out wanting dope so bad, and hosted several other types of programs, such as anger management, domestic violence, etc.

All of this was done in a situation that fostered lose of hope, despair, anger, and violence.

It was called the Arizona Department of Corrections.

SWIM has seen a man get his 5 year sobriety chip and then go out and shoot dope during break to celebrate.

SWIM has seen another man stand up on his first day in prison and swear he would never do dope again, fought his demons every day for over three years and walked out smiling and free.

AA/NA works for those who buy into the theory, but you have to of a certain mind-set to do so. SWIM could never do it personally because, to him, it seemed like a "weak" way. SWIM is hard-headed and will never admitthat he can be defeated. The perfect candidate for addiction!

SWIM got into the behavioural modification programs and found it to be several orders of magnitude better than the A's. They teach personal responsibility and decision making skills. You choose to use drugs and alcohol to excess, you can make the choice to stop.

You are not an addict "forever", only as long as YOU choose to be!

AA/NA is a dinosaur, but it is a dinosaur that works for some people.
B-Mod enables people to choose for themselves when, where, how, and to what extent they wish to change, and doesn't lay on the guilt trip when shit happens.

Reputation Comments on this post:

I agree - well said. You also seem to have the experience to back up your words.

[Nagognog2]

As a crack-addict was detoxing in Bongo's home one week, trying to kick it as he was near psychotic and stealing from his relatives, the police did their job - at the "suggestion" of Court-Appointed Social Workers.

The police told Bongo they were to find narcotics. Bongo said there were none. This was a friendly detox done by the friends of the victim of the drugs. Please go away. Well....

They had to come back. And sweep the property with metal-detectors for any paraphrenalia. It sure lifted Bongo's friends' spirits to see the police hunting for Land-Mines in the forest. More Gatorade and some scrambled eggs was his pleasure.

Miss (ya wonder why?) Social-Court-Worker was delightfully irate when nothing was found - aside from some Racoons that were woken up. She swore she would be back. She wasn't ever back. Though Bongo was certain she would want to look up his asshole.

MJ kicked the crack habit - and laughed down the road doing it.

[Klaus]

Mick Mouse> You are not an addict "forever", only as long as YOU choose to be!

Spot on Mr Mouse! But try telling AA/NA that !

[wildbeast]

After some nine years of sobriety I heard some fool in an A/A meeting that

"Xanax is an extremely addictive drug and should never be used by a former drinker".

Well Christ my prescription to Xanax coupled with a Beta Blocker friggin saved my life. I rarely take the traquillizer anymore but it's great to know it is always nearby.

So be careful about A/A. get some friends OUTSIDE the program.

You can easily become a program junkie too. Some love that but other don't.

All i got in A/A was condemnation for my "going it alone". Second class status even after five years of abstinence.

BUT if you have no adult experince with abstinence or sobriety it may be a good idea to check out a few meetings. i know it helped me in the beginning.

[asplinteredfawn]

In my opinion people who really understand AA/NA know that it is brainwashing. Their is also big difference between the big book and an AA/NA meeting. The big book was taken from the many tenements of the bible and I can see many resemblances in Christianity and AA/NA. Both based around men who where misunderstood in their message Bill and Jesus. Both messages have been completely taken out of context from the literature that they are both adapted from. For me personally the big book is just like the bible. It has some very good points but if you want to keep your own mind and still succeed in some form of recovery without becoming an AA drone you have to learn to filter out the bull. Just my opinion though and I could get really into this but I wont at the moment.

Again this is just my opinion,

if AA/NA works for you then more power to you

but I'm pretty sure thats just from the brain washing.

* giggles *

[Wflash]

Yep. AA/NA is a load of bollocks. But that said, for some people it achieves the goal of getting them off and keeping them off drugs. So SWIM guesses that if being part of a cult and convincing yourself of things that aren't true (the biggest lie being the one that you cannot ever hope to take personal control of your life and have to surrender the job to a higher power) seems preferable to someone's current situation of addiction - by all means go for it.

[azrael2600]

swim used to do the AA/NA thing for a couple of years .swim has read the Big book many times and think's it has some great stories, but swim doesn't agree with all of the things in it. It never worked for swim but swim has seen some people with some long term sobriety,, 20+years(whell that's at least what they claim to have). swim might also be off the subject but the scientologists(swim doesn't like L. Ron HUBBORD nor scientologist's) have their own version of AA/NA and based their foundation on L. Ron Hubbord's book "clear body clear mind".

[Nagognog2]

Oh no! A scientologist-version of AA?! How long can it be before Judge's in California start ordering convicted drunk-drivers to go to scientologist AA and believe they have to believe in the saucer-people to overcome their drinking problem?

This has the makings for a really bad (or hilarious) movie.

[Klaus]

The most notable part of the video is the fact that in the long term AA is no better than quitting on your own. 5% success rate .

Is that it ! 5%?

[BobTheGreat]

yea. Watch the video. The only statistics they could find were from 1989 and it showed after a year the success rate is only 5%.

The big problem with AA and all the programs like it is that you dont have to take responsiblity for your actions. You get to blame it on genetics or w/e. And if you relapse, hey youre helpless, wimpering child. It uses the same teachings as certain unnamed religions:
1. Do things that go against your beliefs.
2. feel bad
3. repent for temporary relief
4. repeat process indefinately
But I digress

If you want to beat addiction you have to take resposiblity and admit it's your fault. Find a new hobby to keep your mind off it. Get a pet. It's not easy but better than the alternative. If you cant do it on your own, there are support groups other than AA or go to rehab. Hell even a good friend would probably be more than willing to help you. [/rant]

[Klaus]

Swim went once but that was enough some people had been going for 20 years! Good Fekin Lord!

By the way swim quit on his own .

[pankreeas]

Originally Posted by glitterfly

she's been going to AA meetings despite the fact that she refuses to believe she is an alcoholic.

Guess what? swiy is NOT an alcoholic. But if she keeps going to those GODforsaken meetings it will soon be hammered into her head that she is a raging powerless alcoholic who will wind up dead. In turn leaving her very vulnerable and suseptibal (ripe for the picking)... it's all very reminiscent of slowly fattening up a Goose, just to steal it's poisoned 100$ liver and market it to others. We all know what the livers function is right? (Yes folks thats Fois Gras, YUM! Seconds please.) But I digress.. Swim advice for her is to beat it on her own. Just think, If everyone keeps telling you something, theres more incentive to prove them wrong.

Maybe swim's updated 12 step prog will help.

1. We admitted we enjoy drugs/alcohol.

2. Came to believe that we can remedy this situation.

3. Decided to omit step 3 because we thought it was boloney.

4. Made a discovery that 12 steps is 11 too many.

5. Admitted being human....

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these bullshit organizations so noone else has to go through this.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove his cloak and show himself.

8. Made a list of all our dealers and sent them a letter notifying them not to expect/contact you as you are making some big life changes.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would make either party uncomfortable or bring bad memories to the surface.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and write out all the positive vs negative aspects of Using.

11. Sought though nutrition, self-respect, harm reduction, and understanding, ways to improve our lifestyle.

12. Having a sense of humor, and not taking this post as an insult.

[kizevin]

Twelve Step programs are sensitive to myself and SWIM. SWIM and I have been attending AA ever since we left rehab together in July '06. That was the advice they gave us when we went out the door, "just find a meeting." Well, both SWIM and I still detoxing somewhat and a bit scared, that's just what we did. I still go to meetings every day or every other day. And yes, a LOT of it is BS. I believe I've gotten all I can out of AA now and it's time for me to move on in my recovery. I'm going to try bibliotherapy next, should be pretty cool. But there are, genuinely, people that are tremendously helped by the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. Of course it's brain washing! For most people that end up there, their brains need a BIT of scrubbing. Bottom line is that I do no believe I would have stayed sober this long without it. That doesn't mean it doesn't has a lot of flaws or that it doesn't have a lot of core issues I don't agree with, but I did it and it worked for me. It doesn't work for a lot of people...

Anyway, I'm not sure where this was going, most of the negative things people say about AA are right, and I still go. It's about something different for me I guess.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Handled a sensitive situation without conflict or anger

[renegades]

South Park's Bloody Mary episode about AA.
The boys are at their karate class where their instructor reminds them about the need for discipline. After class they are waiting for Stan’s father to give them a ride home. Randy shows up, but he’s been drinking and has a couple of beers with him to “keep his buzz going.” Stan is worried, but his father assures them that he is only “driving while he’s drinking.” While trying to show the boys a skill they will need in the future (peeing into a bottle while driving) Randy gets pulled over and fails the sobriety test. He and the boys are taken to the police station where they spend the better part of the whole night. At school the next day Stan is embarrassed and tells the Kyle and Cartman that he doesn’t want anyone to know about his father’s behavior. Much to Stan’s embarrassment, as part of his punishment Randy is going to elementary schools telling about the dangers of drinking and driving and Mrs. Garrison adds a few comments about being like “Stan’s dad.” Randy also attends his first AA meeting and is horrified to learn that he is powerless and has a disease. Knowing that he has a deadly disease that he can’t cure himself Randy starts drinking, hoping for a miracle to cure his disease. In a nearby town called Bailey there is a statue of the Virgin Mary at St. Peter’s church. The statute has started bleeding out of its ass. Randy is watching the local news coverage of the event and becomes interested when he believes the statue will help cure him of his disease.


At an AA meeting Stan comes in and asks who’s in charge, he wants to know who was responsible for making his father think he has a disease. Stan tells them that his dad only needs to learn the discipline to control his drinking. Stan is shown to the door. Meanwhile at St. Peter’s, a cardinal is on the scene to confirm the miracle and after being splashed in the face with blood, he does just that. Randy gets behind the wheel of his car with intention of going to the statue to get cured of his alcoholism. Stan winds up driving him there. There is a long line of people waiting to be cured and Randy is a “butter and a dirty line cutter” and manages to work his way to the front of the line. He gets splashed in the face with blood and decides that he won’t drink anymore and throws his bottle away. He declares his cure a miracle.


Back at home five days later and Randy is praising Christ. He invites Stan to come with him to an AA meeting at Whistlin’ Willy’s. While there Randy catches sight of a Channel 4 newsbreak. The new pope, Benedict XVI, has come to see the statue and after being sprayed in the face with blood declares that it is not a miracle. He says that the statue wasn’t bleeding out its ass, it was bleeding out of its vagina and since chicks do that all the time, it’s no miracle. Randy now knows that he wasn’t cured, feeling powerless he orders some drinks and others from his meeting quickly follow suit. Stan finally gets his father to see that all he really needs is discipline to drink responsibly.

[oldman]

If Ted Haggard can be cured of homosexuality in 3 weeks, theres no reason people need to go to AA meetings for the rest of their life. But if you are the type of person that likes coffee and liked sitting around a bunch of drunks bullshitting and not hanging out with your family, AA might be right up your ally.

If you need a 101 course in how to live like a sincere and honest person it might do you well.

You know they never bother to mention in that Big Book that Bill W loved LSD. no shit he really did, (while sober from Alcohol in the fifties).

[77pump]

Swim has been going to AA for almost 5 years. SWIM says:

Don't assume everyone there has your best interests at heart. Some are looking for a following. The cult aspect of AA is when controll freak individuals transfer their alcohol and other drug addictions into their need to be right and tell others they are wrong.

That said, there are a lot of good people in AA, and I've had tons of help from them, just make sure you ask around about people, and really listen to the people talking. Dpo they beat the shit out of themselves, or do they talk about how pure they are? Or do they go between the two...

And NOTHING is black and white, despite what some may say or shame you into believing (check out my Kratom post in this sub-forum). I broke my hand 3 years ago, and took Codeine for it, and some control freak jumped out of the AA wood-work and tried to exert social control over me via it. But not everyone is like that.....

AA is good for treating some of the spiritual side effects of addiction, and the socialising aspect of it is good for cutting ties to your old behaviours and the people you used with. Just keep your wits about you and you'll figure it out. If anyone promises you perfection, or tries to convince you just how wretched a human being you are, run like hell!

As for smoking pot, etc... MUCH better than doing that other crap, and if anyone there tries to tell you your doomed for death because of it, dsicopunt what they say...

It's not the best thing, and doing so could lead you to get cocky about the super bad things you were doing before (ie, i can handle this, so maybe I can control that which I couldn't before).

AA is designed (for the most part) to help out sick folks, and the people there (myslef included) are ussualy dealing with more than mere physical addiction, they are also dealing with the deleterious mental and 'spiritual ' effects of living life on the edge. I was a serious heroin addict and I lied and bullshited and conned a lot of people so I could keep on using, as I couldn't bear withdrawal, and in all seriousness my life was a bag of shit without the numbing effects of heroin. Using it (and tons of other things) effectiveley screwed me up (mentally, socially, etc....) way worse than I was before I got hooked, and trust me I was suffering from some serious issues before I even picked up cigarettes at age 12.

So your smoking pot.... much better than mainlining ritalin!
There is a serious group-think thing going on at AA/NA and people hold onto these beliefs cause without them they are lost.... Despite what some say, not all of it is applicable to every one.

If you are an atheist or agnostic, no sweat, I jump from atheist to agnostic to spiritual quite often.... and I know some guys who have seriously improved their lives via AA while remaing atheist or agnostics. When people say stuff like "this is a spiritual program, and if you don't believe in a higher power, you're doomed to failuyre" are mentally ill, and probably are sooo shaky in their own faith that they need to convince others so they have faith. forget them.

As for the higher power bit:
look at it this way, you were definatley made ritalins bitch, right? so in essence, it was your higher power. You did it even when you didn't want to (I presume). Try realizing that there are people who have been in your shoes and can offer you helpful advice, and recognize that that advice can guide you, and is a higher power of sorts, even if there is nothing spiritual about it.

I will say that my life has gotten much better since I began going. I still have some serious issues to contend with, but they are much easier to deal with without being a smack addict.

As they say: take what you need, leave the rest.....

I totally agree that AA is better than NA, at least in Boston, as NA tends to attract some thug types, and from what I've heard, there are meetings at which people sell dope in the bathrooms.

Definately be especially warry of anyone who says stuff like : "I've done the steps straight out of the big book" as there is a sub-culture within AA called Big Book Step Study, and they are DEFINATLEY a messed up cult!

Good luck, and if you have any other questions, pm me. I don't check the account I registered with all that often (or this forum) but when I do, I'll send you my email address, or you can always pm me yours.

Keep the faith, don't listen to everyone, be openminded (with in reason), etc....

[77pump]

Almost forgot. There is a mini faction within AA who blow a gasket at the mention of 'drugs' as they feel socially superior by convincing themselves that alcohol isn't a drug, and thus they weren't drug addicts...
To them , I say: HA!
you wish. These are the same people who would drive drunk and endanger themselves and others, the same people who would get drunk and smack their children about......

They have no clue!
And if you are at a meeting where a group of people causes a fuss cause someone mentions 'drugs' and ask the 'offender' to leave, go to another one, as you will find tons of people who couldn't care less!

Or, alternatley, when you talk about alcohol, say "the drug Alcohol", as it really pisses the control freaks off! So much fun!