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  #1  
Old 12-08-2012, 14:20
Impure157 Impure157 is offline
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Interactions between Sulbutiamine and Amphetamine?

Firstly I'm prescribed 45mg of dextroamphetamine daily, so recently I've been experimenting with various supplements and nootropics, but I've been extremely careful to research any possible interactions or adverse effects from being mixed with d-amph.

After I first read about Sulbutiamine I was intrigued, it seemed like it was perfect for what I wanted. Sadly I was a little overzealous and ordered 200 200mg Sulbutiamine capsules that happened to be on sale. Rushing to buy it meant I hadn't done my research until afterward, and I've been reading contradictory claims about possible interactions between Sulbutiamine and d-amph.

Some people say that due to their fairly opposite mechanisms of action they may negate one another or have a synergistic negative effect, making it exponentially worse. Other people claim they're safe to administer together but Sulbutiamine is best suited for the amphtamine, or some have said administering them at roughly the same time makes them both more effective.

So essentially I'm unable to find any reliable sources or solid information about using the two together and hope I didn't order this Sulbutiamine for no reason.
  #2  
Old 12-08-2012, 16:19
Basoodler Basoodler is offline
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Re: Interactions between Sulbutiamine and Amphetamine?

I've mixed it with ephedrine and caffeine and it was a bit over stimulating. Ephedrine is a basic amphetamine without the methyl chain (I may be wrong)

You may want to try it without the D-amp to see how it effects you. Sulbutamine is more pscycoactive than most nootropics. I found it to be pretty damn stimulating on its own.
  #3  
Old 13-08-2012, 13:17
Impure157 Impure157 is offline
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Re: Interactions between Sulbutiamine and Amphetamine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basoodler View Post
I've mixed it with ephedrine and caffeine and it was a bit over stimulating. Ephedrine is a basic amphetamine without the methyl chain (I may be wrong)

You may want to try it without the D-amp to see how it effects you. Sulbutamine is more pscycoactive than most nootropics. I found it to be pretty damn stimulating on its own.
I wasn't too worried about it being too stimulating or intense but I'll definitely keep that in mind and plan accordingly, thanks. After d-amp almost daily for so long at moderately high doses it's rough to take a day off but maybe I'll wait to try my initial sulbutriamine for my next tolerance break.

My major concern was after reading the conflicting claims about this combo and then coming across stuff like this in my research on Sulbutiamine, "In addition to its action on cholinergic and glutamatergic transmission, the administration of sulbutiamine reduces the release of dopamine in the prefrontal cortex, which increases the density of D1 dopamine receptors through a compensatory mechanism."

If it really inhibits the release of dopamine then that would account for the reports of the effects from either drug (but primarily the amphetamine) being weakened or negated entirely.

At the same time seeing that it can increase the density of dopamine receptors could account for the reports of the combo producing stronger synergistic effects, since such should help counteract the receptor down-regulation that occurs after over-stimulation. Also one additional thing that lends some credibility to the positive reports of this combo is that d-amph doesn't cause the neuron to simply release some extra dopamine, it 'tricks' the dopamine transporter which is involved in reuptake to reverse direction and start moving dopamine out into the synaptic cleft rather than of back inside the neuron.

Impure157 added 1184 Minutes and 32 Seconds later...

Yeah thanks for the advice earlier, but upon further thought the sulbutiamine is gonna get put to the side for a rainy day or something.

I recently took a 10 day tolerance break from dexedrine, which initially shaves about a quarter off the dose needed (give or take like 10%) for a busy 12 hour work shift. Sadly, it just takes a couple days, sometimes even less for the tolerance to begin quickly rising again, except neither of those applies to this break I just finished.

During this past one I began taking a supplement regimen consisting of neurotransmitter precursors, some minor nootropics, as well as various forms of vitamins and minerals (like niaciamide, pyritinol, magnesium glycinate, etc.)

I wasn't quite sure of it the first day, but the similar duration and intensity yesterday made it obvious. Something about that break almost removed my tolerance completely, it wasn't like the first or second time but it was definitely just like one of those early days.

Finally the effects were identical both days, even though I was barely able to sleep between them (it really gave the duration a kick in the ass apparently). Normally that would mean the second days dose would have barely any effect compared to the first day, this time there was no change in effects. I'm still skeptical that it's anything but a random one-fluke though.

Last edited by Impure157; 13-08-2012 at 13:17. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #4  
Old 22-12-2012, 01:35
panax panax is offline
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Re: Interactions between Sulbutiamine and Amphetamine?

I have wondered the same, as I am currently on 40mg Vyvanse daily for ADHD. Sulbutiamine seems like it would have a very strong synergistic effect with amphetamine. Here's my understanding:

Sulbutiamine up regulates the reticular activating system, which is the center of arousal and motivation. Hyperactive children (Those with ADHD…) are thought to have a poor reticular activating system which is responsible for activating the appropriate part of the brain when stimuli are absorbed. I.E. When somebody asks you a question and you have to make a decision, this system sends those stimuli to the prefrontal cortex.
Amphetamines do a decent job at simulating this by stimulating the entire brian overall. The idea being that a poor reticular activating system does a weak job at arousing the brain, so if the brain is already at a higher level of arousal, activation of those areas would be easier. Taking these two together would therefore be synergistic. A more powerful reticular activating system + a more active brain = more overall attention, focus, and most importantly, better performance.
Sulbutiamine also decreases the density of glutamate receptors in the prefrontal cortex to increase activity. At first, this seems contradictory. But as I understand, this means that transmission becomes more centralized and less likely to stimulate the 'wrong' receptors. Much like trimming the hedges, Sulbutamine gives your brain a 'haircut' so that things don't get tangled up and you come to false conclusions or make bad choices. Each signal goes exactly where it is meant to go, and transmission becomes easier.
Amphetamine stimulates the prefrontal cortex, so the effects of Sulbutamine would be sped up. Increased transmission would induce LTP, a type of learning that 'hard wires' pathways in your brain so that you don't have to think about things so much in the future. It creates shortcuts that allow you to build off of what you know and succeed further in life. If you have trouble remembering people's names, you could either have ADHD, or just not have a reason to remember them. When you ask a hot girl for her name, you get aroused, and your memory pathways get fired when she tells you. These happen independently. However, LTP only occurs when memory is linked to a state of arousal. LTP would occur in this situation and you would learn that it is important to remember names because forgetting her name would be embarrassing and decrease your chances of having sex (primally: less arousal in the future.)
General arousal from amphetamine + improvement in transmission from sulbutamine = more LTP, more learning, better memory, and more success.

So final check-list here:
Amphetamine
Stimulates the brain, causing connections to occur faster, and heightening mental ability.

Sulbutamine
Up regulates the reticular activating system, causing it to become more active and increase arousal of the brain which aids concentration.
Decreases the density of glutamate receptors in the pre-frontal cortex to create more efficient transmutation and better learning.
ALSO (didn't touch on this), decreases dopamine in the pre-frontal cortex, which leads to an increase in dopamine receptors in the area to compensate. More dopamine pathways in the prefrontal cortex enables us to feel more complex emotions and make more complex decisions.

The combination of the two would create a hyper rewiring of the brain. Sulbutamine would set the infrastructure of what to do (increase motivation, trim the hedges to improve learning, increase dopamine receptors in the prefrontal cortex), which Amphetamine would speed those mechanisms along by stimulating the pathways required to make those effects happen. Sulbutamine is the car, Amphetamine is the gas.

I am actually about to order Sulbutamine to aid the therapeutic effect of Amphetamine. The only reason I stumbled upon this was some to read some accounts of others who have used it.

Don't take this as complete fact or to persuade you to make a decision. I have finished a semester of Introductory Psychology at my current liberal arts college and have spend about a year casually researching drugs and how they work when I realized I may have ADHD. How much you want to respect my opinion is completely up to you.
  #5  
Old 23-12-2012, 05:55
Anamo7tram Anamo7tram is offline
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Re: Interactions between Sulbutiamine and Amphetamine?

Sulbutiamine upregulates dopamine by inhibiting it, from my research it is not a releasing agent or a reuptake inhibitor or a postive modulator of any neurotransmitter, all the postive effects are of a compensatory nature to counter act its inhibiting properties, taking it with a stimulant at the same time may reduce the effects.
I suggest to take it before sleep as to prevent dopamine downregulating,
  #6  
Old 26-12-2012, 10:36
Boltzmann Boltzmann is offline
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Re: Interactions between Sulbutiamine and Amphetamine?

You shouldn't have any adverse effects. Sulbutiamine is generally quite subtle if noticeable at all. Personally, I didn't feel anything I could distinguish from placebo or nocebo. Then again, every person's body is different.

That being said, if you've experienced anything from sulbutiamine, do exercise caution and don't exceed recommended doses (200mg usually) until you're familiar with how it works for you. Some people swear by it, although I see it much more often more often in people's hodge-podge mish-mash ridiculously large glob of supplements that they imbibe daily, don't know whether or not it helps, but still think it's good than I see it on anyone's A-list.

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