Opinions - XTC killed the LSD star?

[redpoppy]

SWIM was wondering if the UK drug taking population have been distracted by the rise and popularity of E in the last ten years and if this is what has caused the death of LSD?

Is it economic (It's easier for more people to do more pills every week for the same price per pill as per tab hence making E consumption far higher) or is it cultural? Is it simply supply and demand? Does the UK drug taking population just not want to experience LSD anymore?

Or is it the tragic fall of the grateful dead? Surely the UK LSD culture was not all born of the USA?

I would like to hear everyone's theories (cultural, social and political) as to why teh drug of choice fo the late 80's and early 90's has almost vanished, not just on the practical level (in the sense that its impossible to locate) but also on the cultural level.

Surely it can't be the police just doing a good job. SWIM figures the police dont really bother with drugs unless its to bring forward headlines to raise reputations. SWIMs sure a deaf mute and blind police man with no head could find an E dealer if they tried.

P.S. I realise LSD was drug of choice in other parts of the 20th century, but i am talking of the recent decline in LSD culture. (Which SWIM insists is completely different from mushroom culture.)

OH and SWIM feels very sorry for people who are having to take two to three or more tabs or blotters of LSD to have any sort of trip or having to wait up to four hours for the LSD to have any affect!

SWIM knows MANY people who have tried LSD during the 90s and has never known any blotters to be so weak. It saddens SWIM and SWIM wonders what will happen to the future of LSD, when as little as ten years ago even SWIM experienced strong visuals and perception changes and all else on just half a blotter.

"What oh what is the world coming to!" says SWIM.

SO basically: theories, opinions and ideas please.
And please no "OH it's so easy to get... blah blah" it's all lies! and even if SOMEONE thinks it is, SOMEONE surely admits there is a meteoric fall in consumption.

and this little fella makes SWIM so happy even thought its all silly and virtual.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Interesting topic

[Nature Boy]

I think it's down to economics mainly but propaganda also plays a part.

In terms of economics, XTC pills are easier to peddle because they are more of a party drug than LSD, can be done more often and in more situations, and all-round there's a greater demand. They're also a lot cheaper to make. Large-scale LSD production is rather costly and complicated compared to these moving pill laboratories (filthy old caravans basically).

The propaganda side of it effects LSD's reputation. We've all heard the horror stories but what one needs to understand is that LSD is not recommended in the wrong environment. Compared to alcohol, cocaine and XTC, LSD is anti-social and isn't something you want to be doing around large groups of rowdy strangers unless you're either very experienced or very stupid. No wonder so many people who use it have bad experiences because they have no respect or knowledge of it.

[adzket]

having worked in the london club scene for many years swim havs seen xtc get more pouler probibly because of how low the price has droped they remeber xtc being XX a pill now there like X lsd remains about XX a tab. also swim think's people dont like to risk triping out in a club any more due to horra stories they have heard. but its still about at the fringes. they would say now due to the ban of mushrooms that lsd will return. as they know many people started doing shrooms when they where openly sold in shops stoped the lsd.

*Prices Are NOT allowed: And you a Gold member!
* prices where when i wrote this though in 2006 and it was from working in clubs not peronal exsperiance.

Reputation Comments on this post:

prices

[FrankenChrist]

Originally Posted by adzket

having worked in the london club scene for many years i have seen xtc get more pouler probibly because of how low the price has droped i remeber xtc being XXX a pill now there like XXX lsd remains about XXX a tab. also i think people dont like to risk triping out in a club any more due to horra stories they have heard. but its still about at the fringes. i would say now due to the ban of mushrooms that lsd will return. as i know many people started doing shrooms when they where openly sold in shops stoped the lsd.

Very interesting. Could you say that people find xtc more "managable" (sp?) than LSD and maybe that's why they do it instead?
If "managable drugs" become a new trend if it isn't already, then I see a golden future for methylone. I've recently seen it described as "E for adults".

*Prices in quote*

[adzket]

yeah cause you dont lose it in the same way. like i say though i do recon that it will get pouler again now no shrooms but also i do belive people like to be in control more now when they go out. its not seen as cool any more to be realy hedanistic and wasted when your out. its all about giving off the right image to people around you ect... so people like to get fucked but not look it.

[redpoppy]

Originally Posted by adzket

yeah cause you dont lose it in the same way. like i say though i do recon that it will get pouler again now no shrooms but also i do belive people like to be in control more now when they go out. its not seen as cool any more to be realy hedanistic and wasted when your out. its all about giving off the right image to people around you ect... so people like to get fucked but not look it.

Wow, I find that really interesting. So its not about the experience but about image...

I wonder if society has become more image obsessed in the last ten years or if its just an assumption we make becasue of celbrity culture invading our lives.

Anyway. I think the thing with E is that its easy right? No one I've met has ever had a bad time on it becasue it's sole purpose is to make you insanely happy. (Except people who drink too much alcohol with it annd start throwing up liquid. But even they think they're having a good time. Which is always strange.)

LSD is a "mind altering" substance. E is a "mood enhancing" one. As is Cocaine. Which is also ridiculously popular.

[adzket]

thats it mood altering drugs are more pouler than mind altering halusangenic drugs whiles people are out with one exseption i have notice in london in some club scenes k is hugly popular and that deffinatly is mind altering not mood altering. although with a change of mind comes a change of mood. but people deffinatly dont like to feel there out of control especialy in a strange environment with strange people. but saying that you always get a few who dont care what they do. also g is huge at the mo there has been a large num of g related o.d on london club scene this could be due to spiking drinks or acidents i cant say.

[Jatelka]

SWIJ doesn't think that people worry much about how they look when they're "fucked" or hedonistic or wasted (or whatever) when they go out (at least not in her experience). It's the type of "off-headedness" that they choose. And people choose to take MDMA or Coke because of the euphoria and interactiveness make it easier to deal with other people. Because, as redpoppy says, they're easy.

As NBL has pointed out, LSD is antisocial. If SWIY wants to go to a noisy/sweaty/crowded club (and who doesn't once in a while) then LSD is NOT a substance to be doing it on. SWIJ has only tried one hallucinogen in a club environment (2-CI) and the experience can best be described as grim.

SWIJ also thinks that the scene has a lot to do with the choice of drug. LSD has always been (and still is) available in the Psy-Trance scene. In her experience people in this kind of scene are far more open about the experiences that drugs can give them, and far more spiritual in their outlook. In the "Dance" scene as a whole there's a lot of commercialism, shiny shirts, and a desire to achieve a state more akin to consuming 16 pints of beer.

The other issue is timescale. Crap pill you get - duration 4 hours. LSD - 12 (plus, for SWIJ a day of dreamy afterglow where she's pretty much good for nothing).

Another issue is social stigma (believe it or not, it even happens in the drug world). Hallucinogens are somehow seen as "hard-headed", particularly for women. SWIJ knows women who can quite happily snort a gram of coke a night and yet who quail at the thought of a trip. In fact the only woman she currently knows well enough to take acid with is her sister (not the pregnant one).

LSD for SWIJ has been something wonderful and she is truely sad that others, through closed-mindedness, fear (or frankly just illegality) have not had the opportunity to grow and develop as she with the aid of this wonderful drug.

[fatal]

it is unlikely that MDMA killed of lsd. it is more likely that lsd is in short supply on a global scale and therefore the market suffers.

[-k4ge]

=\ Man, SWIM can find LSD every place he looks. SWIM only really had trouble finding it until about two years ago, now it won't seem to go away

[jesusfreak666er]

The rise of the techno club scene and the end of the jam band era, the lsd swim finds is weak its been influenced by the XTC generation to try to turn lsd into something else instead of apreciating it for what it is. LSD isn't the party drug XTC is and thats what the public wants.

[redpoppy]

Originally Posted by jatelka

Another issue is social stigma (believe it or not, it even happens in the drug world). Hallucinogens are somehow seen as "hard-headed", particularly for women. SWIJ knows women who can quite happily snort a gram of coke a night and yet who quail at the thought of a trip. In fact the only woman she currently knows well enough to take acid with is her sister (not the pregnant one).

This is so true and yet so strange. Surely humanity should wish that is should learn and grow which SWIM reckons LSD is all about. I still consider Cocaine and E (despite SWIM dabbling quite happily in these areas) to be cheap whorey drugs (as in the drug is a cheap whore, not those who take it.)

SWIM is lucky to know a handful of people she is happy to do LSD in the company of and with, and I imagine SWIM would like the opportunity to experience LSD with person metioned by Jatelka. (although thois is never likely nor possible, unless destiny has starneg designs) Sometimes trust is more about how much you are willing to open up to others. It can be a wonderful thing to be open and experience wonders. SWIM said LSD can almost give (or atleast give the perception of) telepathic ability in such cases. Maybe said person and sister have experienced this?

Originally Posted by -k4ge

=\ Man, SWIM can find LSD every place he looks. SWIM only really had trouble finding it until about two years ago, now it won't seem to go away

SWIM is very happy for you and also at the prospect of a worldwide surge of the uber psychedelic that is LSD. SWIM would like to comment that it seems LSD is still more of a craze and has a culture in the USA and XTC is tougher to get hold of out there. Is this true?

[JustCallMeOyste]

SWIM has witnissed E take over in his area. SWIM doesn't want to break the pricing rules so SWIM will just say that several pills can be purchased for the same price as an 8th of mid-grade MJ... and E doesn't ever (hasn't yet at least) have 1-2 day dryspells like MJ does on occassion. Finding Acid around here is more or less impossible. SWIM has to drive to a vastly populated area with lots of crime and score it off a friend of a friend of a friend or something equally perilous. SWIM is disappointed that he must go to such great measures to find something that is either super watered down or completely misrepresented. The shortage is everywhere... people who know someone with it would beg to differ... but the fact of the matter is that most people don't know that special someone... especially not if they aren't located in the Pacific Northwest. It's really sad to see so many people choose E... hopefully A will make a comeback when everyone decides that the occasional flashback/bad trip isn't nearly as bad as cerebral pulsey. Lots of valid points have been made but has anyone spoken on the issue of risk of selling? E Dealers don't have to worry about someone taking E and wandering off into public where they freakout and end up getting busted. As much as a dealer might drill into his clientelle that "acid is to be used in a familiar/comfortable environment" the fact remains that most people are going to do whatever they want with the drugs after they score them (which often enough ends up with them being involved in a huge scene or at the very least drawing a lot of unwanted attention). With this in mind it's hard to see anyone who sells cid as anything other than bayonet or crazy.

[JustCallMeOyste]

I also meant to add that the previous post was from the states =-P... couldn't edit the previous post so sorry for the clutter.

[radiometer]

I suspect that the arrest of Casey Hardison has something to do with the supposedly lower availability of LSD in the UK which one hears about.

In the US, I predict that LSD may become less popular in the future, due to the increasing number of misrepresented blotters being sold. Only five years ago, prevailing opinion was that blotter was either LSD or it was nothing, and now it seems like the market is flooded with other chemicals on blotter being sold as "acid".

As for your theory - I'm not so sure about that, but you make some good points.

[IHrtHalucingens]

It takes a certain kind of person to enjoy taking hallucinogens on a regular basis i think. Most people dont enjoy being out of their mind insane for even a few hours, they like the euphoric energetic sociable feeling better. Also form a younger persons point of view, when i was in highschool the drugs that were the most publicized as horrible and what not were the ones i was most interested in. And in recent years ecstacy has been a much bigger topic of interest than LSD. As stupid as the rebellion reason is to try drugs it is a very present one in many teenagers these days and does influence choices. Thats why as i see it the drug war is counter productive to an extent. Just as many people that it scares away from drugs it entices into experimentation.

[Jatelka]

JustCallMeOyste: Please explain this statement...

"...flashback/bad trip isn't nearly as bad as cerebral pulsey..."

Is SWIY suggesting that MDMA causes brain damage? If SWIY is they should be aware that the data "proving" this was subsequently retracted when it turned out that the monkeys in the experiment had, in fact been given huge quantities of speed rather than MDMA!

@ Radio: Interesting point, and one SWIJ hadn't really considered.

@Redpoppy: Yes SWIJ and sister have achieved (almost) telepathy. There's an experience report around somewhere.

[Dogears]

I would like to say that I think both LSD and the MDMA class of drugs can both be powefully "mind expanding". LSD focus is very broad in the sense that it can help you grow in all kinds of ways and aid you in achieving a profound understanding of just about any subject one makes an effort to undertake and understand. MDMA drugs are more specific in that they help one gain a profound understanding of people, their psychology, and tend to make people truely more empathetic.

Given this I think LSD is making a comeback. I think it's decline in the past had alot to do with some major busts and the breaking up of the Grateful Dead.

[redpoppy]

Originally Posted by Dogears

I would like to say that I think both LSD and the MDMA class of drugs can both be powefully "mind expanding". LSD focus is very broad in the sense that it can help you grow in all kinds of ways and aid you in achieving a profound understanding of just about any subject one makes an effort to undertake and understand. MDMA drugs are more specific in that they help one gain a profound understanding of people, their psychology, and tend to make people truely more empathetic.

Given this I think LSD is making a comeback. I think it's decline in the past had alot to do with some major busts and the breaking up of the Grateful Dead.

SWIM can never see MDMA as a truly mind expanding substance. If you are somewhat antisocial or have a people aversion it may be considered to expand yoru mind (and perhaps increase your emotional intelligence?) But SWIM feels that all these are just the resullts of being REALLY happy and social. When ecstatic, people feel good and want others to feel good and share and talk and experience each other. Also the empathetic thing... SWIM feels its not REALLY empathy, as when groups do E they are all doing E ands all feel good etc. If someone came long who felt bad, in all your happiness and want to spread goodwill and happiness, some may care and want to help, but again, SWIM feels this is (the very lovely and nice) thing about just being very happy.

SWIM feels LSD helps people to question numerous realities and perceptions, to change the basic way you look at time and space, to find congruity in all of nature and perhaps incongruity included in that state. And SWIM honestly believes that if a relatively averagely reasonable and intelligent and open minded human being does LSD they will inevitably become smarter after their first good trip.

SWIM feels LSD is far more 3 dimensional. E is just good feelings and good times shared.

[JustCallMeOyste]

SWIM knows lots of people that have been rollin a lot for the the past couple years. A couple of them are frustrating to talk to now because they never quite seem to have their shit together enough to know what reality is like. I have heard that MDMA has been cleared of a lot of the origional supposed health risks but it will take a lot of evidence in MDMA's favor to make SWIM think it's his friends diets and not the MDMA that is making them so disfunctional.

[grandbaby]

Originally Posted by FrankenChrist

Very interesting. Could you say that people find xtc more "managable" (sp?) than LSD and maybe that's why they do it instead?
If "managable drugs" become a new trend if it isn't already, then I see a golden future for methylone. I've recently seen it described as "E for adults".

This, I imagine, is why 2C-I appears to be the most popular RC; it doesn't (at doses which are comfortable on the body) have mind-smashing effects - an acquaintance of mine was blown away by it, said it was the best thing he's ever done, "just like acid but without the mindfuck!" Whereas some lab subjects enjoy it, but feel it lacks the depth and far-out-ness of other psychs. One of the aforementioned lab subjects is looking forward to Methylone, now that you mention it...

I wonder if there isn't something to the theory that X has helped to kill L. Everyone seems to want everything easy nowadays, whereas when I was a wee bairn (all those statutes of limitations ago) there was a sense of worthwhile things needing to be hard-won. (And the L was hard on us, believe me.)