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Nootropics Smartdrugs, Brain boosters & Cognitive enhancers.

 
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  #1  
Old 28-06-2012, 16:53
Capt_Kirk Capt_Kirk is offline
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Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

Hello all -

This is my first post. I've come to this board many times, done much reading and learned a lot, found many interesting ideas here. Unfortunately, I'm still "stuck", and I'm hoping that this post will result in some more targeted information.

First some background: I've been generally miserable much of my life. I say that acknowledging that I've had lots of joy and happiness too. But it's never been without a cloud over my head. I tend to be sensitive, irritable, rather easily upset and antagonized, anxious, and (I think as a result) pessimistic, usually struggling to find the initiative to do anything because what's the point... though I usually feel better when I finally have it done and over with. Perhaps you could even say I'm "mildly depressed" - I don't doubt that's what a typical pharma-puppet doc would say as he fires off yet another scrip for the drug du jour, but I think the term is grossly over-used and I'd like to stay away from it.

In any case, I'm definitely "up tight". I've been told to "lighten up" and "chill out" more times than I care to admit. I've been this way for as long as I can remember, and I'm going back to the single-digit age range here. I guess I figured that I always be this way.

Then I discovered Phenibut. I first starting taking it without even knowing it. It was the principle ingredient in a now-defunct Biochem product called Tension-Rx Nightime. I starting taking that for sleep a few years ago. It was awesome: not only did I sleep great - something I had not done in years - but I felt happy, focused and relaxed the next day.

Unfortunately Biochem discontinued the product, no reason given. I suspect it had something to do with dependency problems. But I went for nearly two years without it, sinking back into being generally miserable while searching in vain for a viable substitute. Then last year I found the ingredient list for Tension-Rx Nighttime online, saw that Phenibut was the principle ingredient and sought that out.

Long story less long, I'm currently taking Phenibut every day as of this past week. Up until then, I was generally observing the 3 days on, 2 days off rule - which meant that I was miserable at least a couple of days every week. Having tasted sweet contentment, I'm just not willing to be unhappy anymore, I'm in my 40's now and I've had quite enough of that for one life! When I take Phenibut, everything is in perspective. I still care, but I don't fly off the handle. I can feel true joy at simple things like being outside on a warm sunny day. Work and activities are completed with relative ease: I think it, I do it, without all the fretting. Irritation is greatly muted and tamped down, little things don't get to me. I don't get fatigued nearly as easily, particularly when doing physical work. In short, I can actually enjoy life.


But I've read enough on this forum and elsewhere of the dependency and withdrawal dangers of Phenibut, and the concern about that is really harshing my buzz. I've tried many other things that I've read about here and elsewhere, often times increasing the dose to 2x, 3x, or 4x times what's recommended, to see if it will work anywhere near as well as Phenibut. All failures so far. I've tried:

L-Tyrosene
Picamilon
5-HTP
Aniracitam + Choline
St. John's Wort
Dopa Mucana
Magnesium
GABA
A wide assortment of 'mood blends'

... and probably many others that I can't think of right now. I've also got these on the way:

"Happy Camper" - blend with mainly Kava Kava, Passionflower, Gotu Kola
Kratom

Of the things I've tried, I won't say they have no effect, but as compared to Phenibut? They might as well be sawdust. In fact I've also been treated for things like hormone imbalance and Adrenal fatigue, which involves and variety of compounds that are supposed to "Support Calmness and Freedom from Excitability" - again, Phenibut crushes them all.

I'd welcome any and all input from members of this board as to things that might actually work as a viable alternative to Phenibut for someone with my particular needs I know this has been asked before on this board, but in many cases the askers were looking to reproduce effects that are different from what I need.

Currently I'm taking 1000mg of Phenibut daily as a single dose, each night before bed. That way I get the sleep-enhancing effect when I need it, plus the calm and well-being the next day. This dose seems to work for me, I arrived at it after fiddling with dosing over time. A larger dose causes excessive sedation and spaciness, a smaller does does not give enough relaxation. I have not experienced any tolerance/dependency issues which would require me to increase dosing or frequency, 1000mg once per day seems just right... but then I've only been taking it every day for about a week.

Thanks in advance to any and all who answer.

Cheers,

The Captain

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Great post. This is a big part of what df is about.
Clear and useful info.
  #2  
Old 29-06-2012, 09:14
10ftgp 10ftgp is offline
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Re: Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

1g a day seems quite risky to me. I would try and take a break sometime soon to at least see if it makes you feel worse then you did before. If this is the case then my guess is you are down the road to phenibut addiction, and I am sure you have read about the problems with this. By break I would suggest at least 3 whole days.

That said I am starting to come to the conclusion that phenibut can be used every day but perhaps not at the levels you are taking it. I personally suffer from depression without anxiety without any medication, and I have found that kratom is very effective for me. Kratom has allowed me to reduce my phenibut consumption considerably. Since you seem to be more on the anxiety side of the spectrum my guess it that it may not work as well.

I think you would be a lot safer it you could cut back your dosing a bit; however, my knowledge about this drug is pretty elementary so I am just going off of speculation for the most part. Tech house is the only person I have read reports from that has used phenibut daily without significant drawbacks; however, I think on most days he is using less then what you use.

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Great harm reduction advice!
  #3  
Old 29-06-2012, 11:28
Kid Cudi Kid Cudi is offline
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Re: Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt_Kirk View Post
Currently I'm taking 1000mg of Phenibut daily as a single dose, each night before bed. That way I get the sleep-enhancing effect when I need it, plus the calm and well-being the next day. This dose seems to work for me, I arrived at it after fiddling with dosing over time. A larger dose causes excessive sedation and spaciness, a smaller does does not give enough relaxation. I have not experienced any tolerance/dependency issues which would require me to increase dosing or frequency, 1000mg once per day seems just right... but then I've only been taking it every day for about a week.
How long before sleeping do you take it?

1000 mg a day sounds excessive and it's only going to lead to dependence and addiction. If you are going to continue with that dose, then I would recommend using phenibut only 1 - 3 times a week; allowing for a minimum of 2 days for washing out. If you want to use daily, then you should lower the dose to 300 - 500 mg. Perhaps, you could try kratom on the days you are off phenibut. It might not be as helpful to you, but it is better than becoming a phenibut addict and experiencing those horrible withdrawals. I have to warn you though, kratom isn't a substance one should mess around with either. Although, tolerance to kratom is gained slower than phenibut, it is still a potentially addictive drug and one should start with low doses (as to not build a high tolerance quickly).

Have you considered seeing a psychologist regarding your problems? Using phenibut as a long-term solution isn't the best choice. Maybe you could try prescription antihistamines, antidepressants, or benzodiazepines alongside CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy).
  #4  
Old 29-06-2012, 11:56
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Re: Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

I'm no psychiatrist, but it sounds like you have a legitimate anxiety issue, and if you went to see a psych and told him what you told us, he might very well prescribe you a benzodiazepine that would be far more effective at solving your problems than an OTC supplement

That's what I would do
  #5  
Old 29-06-2012, 15:31
Capt_Kirk Capt_Kirk is offline
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Re: Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

Thanks to all of the above for your replies. Man, there are some night-owls on this board! I'm more of a morning person myself.

Quote:
1g a day seems quite risky to me. I would try and take a break sometime soon to at least see if it makes you feel worse then you did before.
I would like to cycle off of Phenibut for the recommended number of days, I just need to find a suitable alternate for the 'off' days - that's why I stared this thread. I appreciate all the warnings about Phenibut dependency/withdrawal, but I think I made it clear in this post that I'm aware of that issue, so we don't need to go over it anymore.

Keep in mind that I've been taking this dose for some time, and since I've began taking pure Phenibut last year, I've probably taken something like 80g to 100g over the course of a year. I've taken it in stretches of longer than 3 days before, and I've been off it for longer than three days - sometimes for a couple weeks. Also, there was that long stretch of about two years between when Tension Rx Nighttime was discontinued and when I started taking pure Phenibut. The result it always the same: I go back to feeling sh*tty like before, no worse, no better. I don't feel more sh*tty to begin with, then less sh*tty as time goes on, I just feel sh*tty, period.

However, I did notice yesterday that I was feeling kind of spacy, which is the effect I get when I take too much Phenibut. So last night I cut the dose to 750mg. So far this am I feel fine. I'll continue at this level for a couple more days and if it seems good then I'll drop down to 500mg and see how that goes.

FWIW, I use Primaforce Phenibut in capsule form, 250mg per capsule, and the labeling suggests 1-2 capsules 2-4 times per day; a range of 500mg to 2g daily dose. They also recommend 2-6 capsules at bedtime, but it's not clear by the labeling if that's in addition to or instead of the daily dose. But either way, I'm well under those maximum dosages. I'm sure most people on this board would say that's way too much. I think the dependency/withdrawal issues for Phenibut vary quite a bit for each person, perhaps with me it's not so bad.

Quote:
Perhaps, you could try kratom on the days you are off phenibut.
Well that's two votes for Kratom, so I'm glad I've got some on the way.

Quote:
I'm no psychiatrist, but it sounds like you have a legitimate anxiety issue, and if you went to see a psych and told him what you told us, he might very well prescribe you a benzodiazepine that would be far more effective at solving your problems than an OTC supplement
That would be my absolute last resort. I've had family members go on benzodiazepines for anxiety/depression and from what I've seen of how it impacted their lives and their demeanor, I'd just really rather not go there until I've exhausted all other possibilities. Since Phenibut works so well for me, I'd think my best first choice for a scrip drug would be Baclofen, since it's chemically almost identical to Phenibut. But again, the scrip is a last resort, I'm looking for natural/OTC alternatives right now and I welcome more input in that regard.

BTW, somewhat OT - I had recently obtained some Aniracetam and Choline powder, and had created my own blend of 450mg Aniracetam + 150mg Choline in capsule form. I had taken one, or two of these capsules on a couple of different occasions and seen little or no effect. Yes, the ingredients are integrated, I used a coffee mill to grind them together quite thoroughly.

Well yesterday in the early afternoon I took 2 of them - a total does of 900mg Aniracetam + 300mg Choline. By that evening I noticed a definite marked 'expansiveness' of mind and an energy boost, to the point that I had some difficulty sleeping last night, even after taking Phenibut and L-tryptophan. I also played a game of Scrabble against the computer with a high difficulty setting, finished the entire game in about five minutes and totally crushed the computer.

I suspect that this was the result of my Aniracetam blend AND Phenibut together - I had not taken it in the while and when I took it in the past, it was quite likely on one of my Phenibut 'off' days. I'll try it again some time too see if I can confirm it.
  #6  
Old 29-06-2012, 19:17
10ftgp 10ftgp is offline
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Re: Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

I take breaks from Kratom as well in order not to build a physical tolerance to it, but this occurs much slower with Kratom. You can use it for several weeks then take a few days off and be fine as long as you are on a low dose range.
  #7  
Old 02-07-2012, 17:36
Capt_Kirk Capt_Kirk is offline
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Re: Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

So I tried Kratom for the first time on Saturday - took 2g in powdered form orally, which seems to be considered a minimum dose according to most sources I read. Yikes - way too much! I did get a definite mood enhancement for the first couple of hours after it kicked in, but mainly it just really wound me up, but in a kind of unpleasant and jittery way. I do drink coffee daily and I think the combination of the two can lead to an overload of stimulation. Fortunately I had lots to do on Saturday so I was able to burn it off.

On Sunday I cut the dose in half, and that was better as far as not leading to the skin-crawly amped-up feeling, but I also did not get as much of a mood benefit.

Overall, based on my initial experience, I don't know that Kratom is the effective Phenibut substitute that I'm looking for. Also, I don't see a significant difference between the effects of Kratom vs. 1,3 Dimethylamylamine. I have a big bottle of the latter stuff that I bought some time ago. Not only does it cost a fraction per of the price of Kratom gram for gram, but the effective dose at 20mg is a tiny fraction of a typical Kratom dose. I don't take it very often, because of the same kind of mild unpleasantness of it's stimulating effects. I'm thinking that a lot of you Kratom fans could save an enormous amount of money just buying 1,3 Dimethyl instead - you should give it a try if you have not already done so. Meanwhile I'm still looking...
  #8  
Old 02-07-2012, 18:24
Bad Rabbits Bad Rabbits is offline
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Re: Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt_Kirk View Post
Also, I don't see a significant difference between the effects of Kratom vs. 1,3 Dimethylamylamine.
Wow... Maybe if you become a bit more acquainted with Kratom you will realise that these two drugs are worlds apart. Even the stimulation produced from low dose Kratom is far more enjoyable (to me) than the adrenergic Dmaa "Buzz".

Everyone is different of course.

Your wise to be wary of Benzodiazepine treatment - but equally, don't think that Phenibut is any less addictive, or any safer.

In my opinion, your actually more likely to become physically dependent on Phenibut owing to the fast(er) tolerance buildup, and the easily availability/lack of professional guidance/control over use.

^ I can see you've already stressed that your well aware of the addictive nature of Phenibut, so sorry for going around in circles. I just thought it was appropriate to make the Benzodiazepines/Phenibut comparison based on your opinion of Benzo's.

Kratom really is worthwhile, you may find a larger dose beneficial, as the stimulation will become less pronounced at higher doses... Of course, just exercise caution and use incremental doses.

In your position, I would be considering Kratom or Kava... Well, Kava actually. I can't be dealing with the addictive nature of Kratom, maybe this is something you should consider also. If your looking into Kava, buy whole root. Don't bother with extracts or capsules, can't stress this enough.

Kava is quite similar to alcohol intoxication, so may not be for you... though it has its differences also. Still great for bedtime and social anxiety.

Be safe... Do the drugs, don't let the drugs do you.

Last edited by Bad Rabbits; 02-07-2012 at 18:31. Reason: Additions.
  #9  
Old 02-07-2012, 18:55
Capt_Kirk Capt_Kirk is offline
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Re: Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

Well I think "everyone is different" is the key here, that's why I suggested that Kratom users might want to try 1/3 Dimethyl if they have not already, just to see if it gets them to roughly the same place - but I understand that it may not because people react differently to these things. I also understand that some people are looking for different results than I am. I don't want to be sedated, so if a larger dose of Kratom does that, it's not for me.

I've progressively cut my Phenibut usage back to a single 500mg dose per day since last week and I'm doing fine so far, I think I can probably go off it completely for a while in a couple of days, then I'll see how I fare. I was never using nearly as much, or as frequently, as many people on this board so I kinda doubt I'll be tearing at my flesh, but we'll see.

I actually used a blended Kava capsule product called "Happy Camper" for the first time today and it seems to work for me. I am a bit concerned about the 'rare possibility of liver damage' warnings that are floating around out there. Interesting note you made about buying the whole root, I will look into it.
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Old 02-07-2012, 19:17
Bad Rabbits Bad Rabbits is offline
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Re: Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

The infamous study "proving" the link between Kava and Liver damage was completely flawed, and in reality only served to pursue a hidden agenda. The whole study was carried out by corrupt researchers, with US government financing. See this thread for more info.

Unfortunately the damage done to the reputation of Kava is long lasting, and it remains illegal (for the purpose of consumption) in much of Europe today.

Kava extracts are usually hydro/alcoholic extractions, which pull out much of the undesired components from Kava. Using only water as a solvent with whole root is the way to go.

I don't find extracts are usually any better value for money anyway...

I mentioned the Kava because its nice to know exactly what works for you. I personally would take pure Kava over 'Happy Campers' anyday. I can't imagine the Kratom is that much of an active component, and I'm sure the cost isn't proportionate to the contents. If money is no real object though, then may as well still to what works.

I still believe pure Kava would present less of a health risk than any capsuled extracted Kava.

Smart move on cutting your Phenibut use anyway, I think you should definitely proceed as planned, just to see how you cope with not using. If you know you can cycle on/off comfortably, then that's half the battle.

Last edited by Bad Rabbits; 02-07-2012 at 19:24. Reason: Additions.
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Old 02-07-2012, 20:58
bosshallucy bosshallucy is offline
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Re: Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

captain kirk,


.......something to understand w/ kratom is there are different strains w/ different effects.. some of the white and green veined strains tend to be more stimulating, while the red veined strains tend to be more sedating.. also when it comes to the cost, you may find if you search long enough that there are suppliers that charge less than half the price of what most vendors cost. kratom can actually be very cheap if you find the right source..
  #12  
Old 02-07-2012, 22:26
10ftgp 10ftgp is offline
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Re: Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

Sorry to hear that Kratom did not quite do what you needed it to. I agree with some of the other posters about differences in strain but my guess based on your description of the experience is that it probably is not for you. Personally I have had only positive responses from Kratom (except when I took a little too much and it made me vomit) and I have tried many different strains.
I suspect that 500mg per day of Phenibut may cause some light physical addiction but will almost certainly not lead to the serious withdrawal that other people have experienced. I think it would be a good idea to take 2-3 days off and see how you do. Obviously if you start to build a tolerance it would be advisable to discontinue use until it is reset rather then increase the dosage. Anyway please let us know how it goes since the information could be useful to others.
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Old 03-07-2012, 23:39
Capt_Kirk Capt_Kirk is offline
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Re: Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

UPDATE: I've been taking Kava root for the past couple of days, and I'm finding that the effects are more like what I'm looking for. So far I've taken a fairly low dose, in that I'm taking it in a blended product that contains other herbal relaxers, a typical 'mood blend'. I'll be ordering some pure kava root soon so I can verify that kava alone will give me the desired effect. It's not Phenibut to be sure, but it goes more down the road of the direction I want to go than anything else I tried.

I have not given up on Kratom. I'm thinking that a small dose of Kratom along with Kava might push the energy level up a bit. Anybody ever tried combining the two?
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Old 04-07-2012, 00:32
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Re: Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

I have mixed the two together but for some reason Kava seems to have virtually no affect on me at all even when taken at very high doses (almost 1g of actual kavalactones). Perhaps it was the brand but at the levels I was taking I expected to feel something.
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Old 07-07-2012, 21:52
Capt_Kirk Capt_Kirk is offline
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Re: Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

So I went off of Phenibut for three days - like before, I did not go into the fetal position or tear at my flesh and bray like an animal... the world just got a bit grayer, my motivation dropped off, and my mood generally suffered. Took a 750mg dose the night before last and had a great day yesterday. Skipped it last night and took a double-dose of the Kava blend instead. Feel OK, but nowhere near as good as on a Phenibut day.

I keep coming back to two things: 1. I don't seem to suffer withdrawal symptoms anywhere near a severe as some I've heard on this board and elsewhere, and 2. nothing works like Phenibut for me. I'm still seeking that viable alternative. Kava is close, but that's only by comparison to other things. I'm considering getting some pure Kava root (the stuff I have now is blended with other 'mood' herbs) and seeing if a substantial dose of that improves the outcome. Other than that, I'm open to ideas.
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Old 08-07-2012, 01:15
Sovereignty Sovereignty is offline
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Re: Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

Swim agrees with the rest and recommends kratom. Since it is also habit forming, swim recommends switching off between the two, with a couple days/week of neither. Just an FYI, however, a kratom habit is IMO far less destructive than a phenibut habit, but still something worth avoiding.
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Old 08-07-2012, 06:40
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Re: Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

I believe the reason you are not having serious phenibut withdrawal is because you are not using very high quantities. Basoodler has used significant but not extreme quantities over a few weeks and experienced a moderate withdrawal. Tech house uses daily but has no problems with withdrawal. The users who report serious withdrawal are using 2+ grams a day from what I have seen. I use approx 1g per day up to 3 days at a time with a minimum of 3 days off and experienced no withdrawal. Unfortunately for me 600mg has no noticeable affect so I prefer to use greater quantities but limit my usage. People who use several grams at a time find the longer periods of abstinence are necessary to avoid physical tolerance/addiction. My guess is that at 500mg per day it would take a long time to develop a serious physical addiction.
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Old 08-07-2012, 19:45
Socially Awkward Person Socially Awkward Person is offline
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Re: Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

SWIM tried some kratom (5g) and it made SWIM feel calm, relaxed, and less nervous about interacting with people.

SWIM felt it wasn't as good as phenibut though, phenibut in addition to calm and relaxed feeling made SWIM more outgoing, confident and happy.

SWIM recommends SWIY tries Kratom.

Last edited by Socially Awkward Person; 09-07-2012 at 17:32.
  #19  
Old 08-07-2012, 20:18
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Re: Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

Have you considered neurontin? It's active principle is a drug known as gabapentin. I have personally been using this drug on and off for years for a variety of conditions, and while it's effect is not as pronounced as that produced by phenibut or baclofen, it is very helpful for the conditions you describe. It is not a controlled substance, is very easy to get a prescription for, does not seem to lose effectiveness over a long period of time like benzodiazepines do, and while it can cause dependence I have never really experienced a problem with it. I would consider it of I were you.
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Old 09-07-2012, 20:23
Capt_Kirk Capt_Kirk is offline
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Re: Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

Quote:
Originally Posted by 10ftgp View Post
I believe the reason you are not having serious phenibut withdrawal is because you are not using very high quantities.
That's what I'm thinking. I do find that 500mg does not deliver as much benefit as 750mg or 1000mg, but it does still help more than anything else I've tried. Currently experimenting with SAM-e and so far I'm underwhelmed, though the scuttlebutt on it is that you may have to take it for a week or more before you see results. But with all the other stuff I've played with I keep circling back to Phenibut as the stuff that puts the rest to shame - at this point I'm really starting to think that I've found my one and only magic pill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socially Awkward Person View Post
SWIM tried some kratom (5g) and it made SWIM feel calm, relaxed, and less nervous about interacting with people... SWIM recommends SWIY tries Kratom.
Thanks, if you just read the thread from the top you'll see that I have. I found that enough of the lower dose required to get a mood elevation made me uncomfortably, skin-crawly wound up and jittery. I understand larger doses can have the opposite effect, but price becomes a factor - Phenibut is *way* more affordable gram-for-gram. I see Kratom as having it's occasional uses for me, that's all. For others who may not read from the top, I've also tried Kava root and the jury is out on that as well, need to work with larger doses at this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (NS)-M-Lo-Reason View Post
Have you considered neurontin? It's active principle is a drug known as gabapentin. I have personally been using this drug on and off for years for a variety of conditions, and while it's effect is not as pronounced as that produced by phenibut or baclofen, it is very helpful for the conditions you describe. It is not a controlled substance, is very easy to get a prescription for, does not seem to lose effectiveness over a long period of time like benzodiazepines do, and while it can cause dependence I have never really experienced a problem with it. I would consider it of I were you.
I have, thanks. As stated higher in this thread, I'm looking for non-scrip solutions right now.

I appreciate all the comments and answers. There's been quite a bit of repetition however, so to narrow things a bit: aside from Kratom, Kava, all the other stuff I've already listed here (see the top of the thread) and things that require a prescription, does anyone have anything new or fresh to add?
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Old 10-07-2012, 00:44
10ftgp 10ftgp is offline
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Re: Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

I believe SAMe can actually take up to 4 weeks to work; however, I would speculate that if 5-htp does not work for you then SAMe likely will not either. AFAIK they both work by increasing serotonin levels. I am not sure if SAMe is stronger then 5-htp, but if you saw no benefit from 5HTP I would think your odds of getting benefit from SAMe are low.
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Old 13-07-2012, 20:58
kingfausto kingfausto is offline
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Re: Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

I've been taking Phenibut daily for two years now. My dosage doesn't increase and I have gone days without any and report no noticeable withdrawal. I take about a gram a day. I've never worried about dependence as I always have it and get liver tests done bi-annually. Hell, I took GBL and GHB 24/7 for 3 years and had to deal with that withdrawal (valium), the worst was over in 2-3 days - well worth 2-3 years of freedom from fear (though it was a hellish 3 days).
I would have told you kratom will just make you nervous based on your description of self (you're similar in temperament to me). I tried it and it wasn't worth the hangover, it taxed my liver something awful.
I've tried picamilon for the first time today, that seems to be the best bet.
I just don't sweat it; I've had to withdrawal from decades of alcohol, cocaine and opiates so next to that, phenibut withdrawal doesn't seem that bad. It's funny, the only substances that do the trick (give me a euphoric "yes" to socialization/ life in general) are alcohol, g, opiates, and ???phenibut??? the first three are so profound while some people's systems don't even acknowledge the fourth.
I also meditate and practice yoga, which helps, (and I belong to 12 step fellowship). Other than that, I have nothing to recommend but to have faith because there is always a viable solution.
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Old 13-07-2012, 22:29
Capt_Kirk Capt_Kirk is offline
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Re: Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

Thanks kingfausto, I appreciate the input. It does sound like our temperaments and experiences do line up - except I've fortunately never had those other addictions, though I did go through a phase several years ago when I was drinking heavily, but it was not an addiction and I did not have any withdrawals when I let up. How much picamilon do you take at a time? I've got a bottle here and I've tried up to 240mg in a dose, which made me feel a bit lethargic but did not seem to do more than that... I have found that 1g of Kratom is a nice stimulant-like pick-me-up that lasts longer than coffee, but I can't tolerate more than that.
  #24  
Old 22-07-2012, 19:50
Tech House Tech House is offline
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Re: Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

The dangers of phenibut are greatly exaggerated in my opinion. First, it has many benefits that aren't found in alternative GABAergic substances such as benzodiazepenes. Someone above made a comment to the effect that phenibut and benzos are equally dangerous, which is utter nonsense. Benzos damage memory, they're dumbing agents. Phenibut has unique qualities in its ability to produce calm alertness during the day (at reasonable doses) and help prolong sleep or help you go back to sleep after waking in the middle of the night.

The horror stories I've read about phenibut are all the same. Typically they go like this: "I took 5 grams a day for a month and then stopped. The withdrawal was hell." Well, duh. Question one: Why did this person take 5 to 10 times as much as is suggested as an upper limit for the stuff? Question 2: Why quit cold-turkey with no tapering or use of an alternative to blunt the withdrawal?

Stupid drug use is stupid, period. It doesn't matter what the drug, herb, or supplement is. There ain't no cure for stupid.

Smart use of phenibut is helpful. I have never seen a study that demonstrated any negative consequences of using it other than dependency. I'm dependent on air, water, protein, carbs and fats. OH THE HORROR!!! If you get dependent on something then don't worry about it UNLESS IT GENERATES TOLERANCE. If you have to continuously increase your use of anything, including food and water, then you're in for trouble. You'll get fat, or suffer water toxicity, or become a phenibut addict who uses harmful amounts. This isn't "stupid" as it wasn't the original plan to use so much. It's an addiction problem and it's not your fault. But something has to be done to get the addict to a safer way of living, and this is where I see the main hazard in phenibut dependency.

I depend on phenibut to a very mild extent. I take it daily but I don't increase the dose, and as 10ftgp said I don't use as much as a gram in 24 hours. The most I get is maybe 700mg. I often take my own personal calm-focus blend which I've put in capsules (and share with friends), containing the following:
50 to 100mg picamilon
150mg l-theanine
200 to 220 mg phenibut
150 to 200mg of a filler such as glycine (for relaxation) or DMAE (for alertness)


My suggestions:

1. Take l-theanine twice a day at a dosage of at least 150mg (i.e., at least 300mg/day.) Theanine has some very interesting properties which you may not notice at first. It is subtle but it has complex effects on a number of neuronal processes with serotonergic and GABAergic properties, and possibly some inhibition of the excitatory glutamate neurotransmitter.

2. Take the picamilon even if you don't notice anything. Picamilon delivers GABA to your brain in a very efficient manner and you appear to suffer from low GABA activity. You may have a problem only at one of the GABA receptors (for instance, a shortage of receptors or some kind of endogenous antagonist effect? I am no expert on this shit so bear with me while I speculate.) It won't hurt to have the extra GABA available. Picamilon allegedly works as an anxiolytic at about 50mg but it slightly stimulating at 100mg+. I have not particularly noticed either effect. But I also haven't known a moment of anxiety since I started on these capsule blends (along with a bunch of other supplements and herbs.)

3. Try to cut back on the phenibut at night. I like the fact that it's the only time you're taking it, however. If you only take a drug/supplement at bedtime then you're not using it to get high. So, in that sense, you're really not abusing it at all. But it's a high dose and can increase the odds of dependency. If you could cut back by 100mg a night, one week at a time, until you reach about 500mg/night, then maybe you'd be better off. Then you could afford to use it as needed during the day in doses that are no higher than 300mg.

Try to keep your maximum daily usage below a gram (1,000mg) and monitor effects so that you know you're not developing tolerance. If you do notice tolerance then you have to bite the bullet and take some days off of using it. Plan those days so that you won't have to socialize or function at a high level too much. Enjoy your depression, it's just another aspect of living.

4. Take 2 grams of glycine and 1 gram of lysine at bedtime. Also use glycine during the day as needed. High doses of glycine have been studied intensively for about 5 years and the benefits of this amino acid are phenomenal, including the possibility of extending life span. Search PubMed for glycine, rats, and lifespan to see that specific study. But wait, there's more: Glycine is the only other inhibitory neurotransmitter in our bodies besides GABA! Maybe this is something you need, I don't know. I kind of doubt that it would help you much due to the very specific nature of your response to phenibut, but again, it won't hurt to try it.

5. Keep taking the magnesium, with calcium, at bedtime. You might not notice it but it helps in the long run. The additive effect of all these goodies might be noticeable.

6. Try melatonin or tryptophan (less effective) at bedtime.

7. Try 1-carboxy at bedtime.

8. Buy your phenibut, theanine, picamilon, magnesium citrate, calcium citrate, glycine and lysine online in bulk. I can PM you a list of suppliers if that is permitted or you can do your own comparison shopping on that mega-store that's named after the world's largest river. Finding best prices can be a painful process because the best don't sell through that mega-store, so I wish it were permissible to tell you right here and now, or to just re-sell it to you myself, but alas, the rules are the rules. Also, if you like what 1-carboxy does for you then you can get it in bulk as well. It is a more bio-available form of l-dopa than what you get in mucuna pruriens, and it works especially in parts of the brain where added dopamine might be useful for you.

8. Last but not least, gather some pharmacological info about phenibut, print it out, and take it to a psychiatrist. I feel quite strongly that we gravitate toward using drugs, herbs, and supplements that are diagnostic of our conditions. It is rare that anyone has a perfectly optimized balance of neurotransmitters and neuronal activity, but we can do things to help move in that direction. By telling your shrink about how phenibut helps you and how it works pharmacologically (which you have to do because shrinks don't know anything they're not told by Big Pharma, grrr), your doc might be able to prescribe something for you that would work in a similar manner.

Gabapentin, Lyrica (kinda risky), and Buspar are among potential pharmaceutical aids for you. The unreasonably named (NS)-M-Lo-Reason wa quite reasonable in suggesting gabapentin, it would be the first line of defense against what you are experiencing. It has many useful modes of operation which include treating peripheral neuropathy, some types of seizure disorders, and mood disorders. Side effects are rare. I take it myself, along with lamictal, both for mood stabilization (I'm mildly bipolar) and for control of partial complex seizure disorder.

9. Keep testing the racetams and other nootropics (of which phenibut is one.) Many of these aren't listed in the nootropics section of this website. I have experienced a radical transformation in my own life since I started taking Noopept, the latest and most potent racetam. If you try it, I would advise going no higher than 10mg for the first few days to make sure it doesn't make you anxious or interfere with sleep. Take it only once, before breakfast. If that dose is too small then you can work your way up slowly and carefully. I take 30mg every morning. It's fucking brilliant, I feel a new clarity and confidence that I haven't felt so consistently in my entire life.

10. Take vitamin D supplements (1000 IU/day minimum) if you have an indoor lifestyle or live in a very cloudy place. It would be useful to look into any other possible vitamin deficiencies you might have. Some people don't process vitamin B6 properly, in which case you can take the more bioactive form sold as P-5-P. Certain minerals can have dramatic effects on mood and mind. Being deficient or having an excess in any mineral is harmful.

11. If you experience gastrointestinal problems then get tested for gluten intolerance. Gluten sensitivity can cause countless problems, depression and anxiety being among them. Going gluten-free made a big positive difference in my life.

There are many herbs that can be helpful. You can search on terms such as "GABA" and "herbs" to see what you find. Basically you'd want to take the pharma info about phenibut and then apply that in various ways to your search to see if something else might help. The risk here is that herbs are much more complex and it's harder to know what you're getting in terms of active constituents. Look for standardized extracts rather than raw herbal powders. My personal favorite, which countless others also love, is rhodiola rosea. It has many beneficial properties including being a somewhat weak anti-depressant, a potent adaptogen, and high in antioxidants.

I wouldn't consider using kratom or kava long term. Especially kratom. People who suggest using kratom as a daily therapeutic treatment are probably high on kratom. It is a mind-fogging drug that can cause harm with long-term use. The jury seems to be out on kava. It is risky to use in combination with certain medications and supplements due to its pharmacological properties. Otherwise, it's probably safe in recommended doses but people who use it to get high typically use mega-doses and are causing harm to themselves. This forum attracts lots of people who use otherwise safe substances to try to fuck their brains up, and they generally succeed in that objective.

You probably know all the other guidelines by now: proper sleep, exercise, meaningful work and/or hobbies, helping others when possible, avoid sugar and processed foods, focus your diet on whole fresh foods. Avoid sugar. Avoid sugar. Avoid sugar.

Good luck!

Post Quality Evaluations:
great post, thanks for sharing your experiences.
Good post, thanks for taking the time to write this up.
WOW! A very informative, interesting, and well written post. I especially like the last bit about helping people. A practice that when done as unselfishly as possible brings a true feeling of joy.
Seriously man - you have no idea how much these kinds of posts can help people who just can't find answers anywhere. Huge thanks.
Posts like these are what make this forum stand out from the rest
amazing advice!

Last edited by Tech House; 22-07-2012 at 20:41.
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Old 20-08-2012, 01:07
Capt_Kirk Capt_Kirk is offline
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Re: Help! Phenibut is the only thing that works for me

Hello All -

Just posting one last follow up on this thread. I've been taking 750mg nightly for a few weeks now - that seems to be my best dose, not building any tolerance and I'm sticking with it. I've also been taking 300mg Picamilon each morning, and adrenal support herbs twice per day. These seem to be helping. But there's three things I've done recently that have each had as much impact as anything else I've tried, including the Phenibut:

1. GCB extract daily - about 1200mg divided into two doses, first in the morning, second in the early afternoon. As far as I am concerned, this beats the pants off of Kratom if you are looking for the stimulating effect without the jitters and is cheaper to boot.

2. Cut about 90% of the grains and dairy from my diet - I'm eating the hunter/gatherer way. I can't express enough how much better I feel, and I've lost my gut.

3. The runner's high - been running every day. I was never a natural runner, but I'm up to about two miles daily and it's as addictive as any drug, except it generally tends to reward your body rather than destroying it.

That's it - everything else goes in the waste bin. Sometimes trial and error is the best way.

Cheers

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