DALT - forgotten/ignored, but why

[fastandbulbous]

I'm wondering if I'm the only one to have tried or have any interest in the plain, ring unsubstituted N,N-diallyltryptamine? OK it's fairly similar to DPT in it's effects, but different enough in say the way that 4-hydroxy DMT is different to 4-hydroxy DET for it to be of some interest. Add to that the fact that it's one of the few psychedelic tryptamines not to be covered by the UK's Misuse of Drugs Act and you'd think that someone else would have shown some interest in it.

So, has anybody else out there an interest in it or, god forbid, actually tried any?

[radiometer]

The brief entry by Shulgin left me pretty uninterested, and I've heard nothing else about it. I remember that some vendor was selling it a couple years back, so surely you are right that some have tried it, but I've never seen a mention.

[Dogears]

I think I remember reading some reports on Errowid that sounded kind of interesting. However isn't DALT kinda low in potency? Needing something like 50 mg for a good trip? People probably prefer something like Iprocin that only takesabout 25 mg.

Also a friend of a friend of mine has told me that DPT is nasty nasty stuff. If DALT is really alot like that then that may be another reason it has not risen in popularity.

[radiometer]

Many who've tried DPT consider it one of the best psychedelics available.

[Iggypoop]

I can't find any experience reports of plain ol' DALT, anyone want to link for me or are they non-existant?

I'd give it a go, the duration seems nice. There needs to be more reports for the 5-meo but it sounds gentle and quite fun to me. Freebase could be the way to go methinks.

Unscheduled in the UK, nice

[fastandbulbous]

^ Before the questions start, only substitution into the amine/nitrogen of the side chain with alkyl groups results in controlled substances; the allyl group is an alkenyl, not an alkyl group (and they distinguish alkyl as being different to alkenyl in another part of the Misuse of Drugs Act)

[adzket]

so your shure its ok in the uk? any others you no of i have been trying to get my head round the misus of drugs act for days now but my chemistry is nearly non exsistant apart from secondry education and what i pick up on line.

[GDxCAT]

Its a shame this hasnt shown up yet.
DPT is a marvelous chem and if this has similar effects i can imagine it becoming quite popular aswell.

F&B, what would the dosage for DALT be? Would it also require doses above 50mg like DPT, DiPT, Mipt etc?

Is there anything else you can tell us about it? Any papers about it?

[turkeyphant]

(deleted due to error)

[turkeyphant]

Originally Posted by GDxCAT

F&B, what would the dosage for DALT be? Would it also require doses above 50mg like DPT, DiPT, Mipt etc?

50 mg would be about right. I assume the following is from Shulgin's new book:

#xxx DALT; TRYPTAMINE, N,N-DIALLYL; N,N-DIALLYLTRYPTAMINE;
INDOLE, 3-[2-(DIALLYLAMINO)ETHYL]; 3-[2-(DIALLYLAMINO)ETHYL]-
INDOLE

DOSAGE: >40 milligrams orally.

DURATION: unknown

QUALITATIVE COMMENTS:

EXTENSIONS AND COMMENTARY: As far as I can determine, there has
only been a single human trial of DALT mentioned in the published
clinical literature. This was by Dr. Stephen Szara long ago,
in 1960 plus or minus a year or two. Most of the literature
papers that make reference to N,N-diallyltryptamine are reviews
of the structure-activity relationships of the psychedelics, and
thus they do not present any new human data. It is an
interesting trip to work backwards from these reviews to the
original statements that were made.
Most listed potencies are based on the generalization
that the activity of DALT was similar to that of DMT. Thus when
DMT is listed at 60 milligrams, this number appears as the
potency of DALT. And if the range of 60-100 milligrams is given
for DMT, then DALT is often stated to be at the mid-point, or 80
milligrams. I must apologize in that I am equally guilty of just
this kind of sloppy bookkeeping. All this is somewhat supported
superficially by the numbers in a chapter that Szara published in
1970 in Efron's "Psychotomimetic Drugs." In Figure I, there is
stated that a psychotropic dose of diallyltryptamine was "60 mg
i.m. or p.o." but the drug is not mentioned in the text or the
discussion. The yet earlier (and first) text mention of DALT is
in a paper by Szara and Hearst in 1962 (Annals of the New York
Academy of Science, 96 pp 134-142). There it is stated: "As
reported by Szara in Milan in 1957, administration of
diethyltryptamine (DET) and dimethyltryptamine (DMT) lead to
rapidly developing sympathomimetic effects , as well as to
perceptual, emotional and thinking disturbances similar to those
that result after administration of LSD-25 or mescaline. However
the psychological effects persist for only 1 hour in the case of
DMT and for about 2.5 hours in the case of DET; in contrast LSD
and mescaline have a much longer (6 to 8 hour) duration." There
is then added the short phrase, "The dipropyl and diallyl
derivatives have similar activities in man, as we found
recently." I finally found the Milan report of Szara: it is in
"Psychotropic Drugs," edited by Garattini and Ghetti (Elsevier,
1957). There, he describes four personal experiences: Three are
with DMT at 60, 60 and 75 milligrams, all i.m. and one was with
DET (also called T-9) at 60 milligrams, i.m. No mention is made
of diallyltryptamine.
So, the early and only discovery report of DALT mentioned
neither the synthetic preparation, the dosage taken, the route of
administration, nor the effects observed. It merely stated that
the activity had been found. I have explored it up to 42
milligrams, I was to a +1 in an hour, back to base line at the
fourth hour, and there was nothing that caught my fancy.

[turkeyphant]

(deleted due to error)

[radiometer]

^^ those quotes are discussing 5-MeO-DALT, a different drug entirely.

[fastandbulbous]

Yeah, 5-methoxy DALT was nothing to write home about, it did something, although that something was vague & ill defined; psychedelic but fuzzy 'round the edges. That's different altogether to what I got with DALT years & years ago (although it was pretty 'dirty' - had an unknown amount of N-allyltryptamine in it due to synthesis via allyl bromide), which was much more defined in a DPT sort of way. Again, can't give accurate dose comparisons due to unknown percentages of DALT & NALT, but seemed in the DPT sort of range (ie 50-100mg if you administer it nasally, less by smoking - nobody even considered any more agressive administration route; as I recall it was a pale muddy brown colour!).

One thing about 5-methoxy DALT though, for me it was by far the least toxic of the 5-methoxytryptamines I've tried (and then in some cases suffered horribly!)

[turkeyphant]

Originally Posted by radiometer

^^ those quotes are discussing 5-MeO-DALT, a different drug entirely.

Sorry, my mistake - I didn't actually read them through in my haste. If the text I quoted really is Shulgin, then it seems the required dose would be at least 50mg (and likely much more) for decent effects. Of course, the only way to really know is for a range of subjects to work with the substance up to that sort of range.

Iggypoop: how does DALT escape UK drug law?

[Iggypoop]

Originally Posted by fastandbulbous

^ Before the questions start, only substitution into the amine/nitrogen of the side chain with alkyl groups results in controlled substances; the allyl group is an alkenyl, not an alkyl group (and they distinguish alkyl as being different to alkenyl in another part of the Misuse of Drugs Act)

the post below where i say its legal says it all mate

[turkeyphant]

Oh I'm sorry. Obviously not very on the ball at the moment. Don't suppose anyone could point me to where in the MDA the distinction is made?

It does make sense I suppose. Though, in general, how does replacing alkyl groups with alkenyls affect pharmacology? Is the specific distinction made in order to legitimise a chemical similar to other controlled ones? And more importantly, what scope is there for other alkenyl-substituted tryptamines?

[fastandbulbous]

Oh I'm sorry. Obviously not very on the ball at the moment. Don't suppose anyone could point me to where in the MDA the distinction is made?

The paragraphs about derivatives of pethidine and fentanyl. At some point it mentions substitution into the piperidine ring with any of the following... ...alkenyl, alkyl...

It doesn't matter if it's not in the paragraph about tryptamines, by distinguishing alkyl as being different from alkenyl elsewhere, they've set a precedent for the interpretation of any organic chemistry nomenclature throughout the whole Act. Most probably done to prevent anyone making a pethidine/fentanyl derivative including an allyl group on the piperidine ring (eg a derivative of allylprodine) from trying to wriggle out from under a charge under the M of DA; but in doing that they've opened up the psychedelics just a little bit! You never know, N,N-dipropynyltryptamine (3-carbon group containing a triple bond) might turn out to be some sort of uberpsychedelic!


You can pretty much forget about any other alkenyl group on the sidechain nitrogen as the group just becomes too big (as with say DBT) - although that's just conjecture on my behalf

[Micklemouse]

In that case, why is the first pea named an Allyl? I really don't get your logic on this one - at a bit of a disadvantage not being a chemist I suppose!.

Anyway here are the bits F&B is talking about...

(b) any compound (not being a compound for the time being specified in sub-paragraph (a) above) structurally derived from tryptamine or from a ring-hydroxy tryptamine by substitution at the nitrogen atom of the sidechain with one or more alkyl substituents but no other substituent;
(f) any compound (not being a compound for the time being specified in Schedule 2) structurally derived from pethidine by modification in any of the following ways, that is to say -

• (i) by replacement of the l-methyl group by an acyl, alkyl whether or not unsaturated, benzyl or phenethyl group, whether or not further substituted;
  
  (ii) by substitution in the piperidine ring with alkyl or alkenyl groups or with a propano bridge, whether or not further substituted;
  
  (iii) by substitution in the 4-phenyl ring with alkyl, alkoxy, aryloxy, halogeno or haloalkyl groups;
  
  (iv) by replacement of the 4-ethoxycarbonyl by any other alkoxycarbonyl or any alkoxyalkyl or acyloxy group;
  
  (v) by formation of an N-oxide or of a quaternary base.
  
  

2. Any stereoisomeric form of a substance specified in paragraph 1.

3. Any ester or ether of a substance specified in paragraph 1 or 2.

4. Any salt of a substance specified in any of paragraphs 1 to 3.

5. Any preparation or other product containing a substance or product specified in any of paragraphs 1 to 4, not being a preparation specified in Schedule 5.

Schedule 5 covers cd's such as medical cocaine & opiates.

The full Act can be read here...

http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/...e_2001_1.shtml

What I don't understand is why saying something is illegal in one part of the Act makes it legal in another? Logic would seem to dictate the opposite (ok, so this is British law...). Has anyone actually sought legal advice on this, or is it all supposition & guesswork so far?

[fastandbulbous]

^ because it's a 4-allyloxy PEA derivative, I was talking about N-substitution in tryptamines

[radio879]

I've talked to someone who has made & tried DALT and enjoyed it. I don't have a trip report, but i think the doses were higher than DPT. All i know is it was made easily, and the lower doses were boring (i forget if he took it all orally, not sure..) but higher doses were interesting but different than DPT. I'd have to look through some emails for more details.

Wish somebody growing mushrooms who could get ahold of DALT would dump some into the substrate.. 4-HO-DALT is probably interesting .

[fastandbulbous]

but higher doses were interesting but different than DPT. I'd have to look through some emails for more details.

It was a long time ago, but I didn't think it was that different to DPT - it had the same sort of feel (ie the simple dialkylated tryptamines)

[renegades]

It was quite an uneventful trip for swim. Swim reported no visuals just a mild body buzz for about 4 hours.

[radiometer]

Originally Posted by renegades

It was quite an uneventful trip for swim. Swim reported no visuals just a mild body buzz for about 4 hours.

DALT has never been on the market. Unless SWIY made it himself, I suspect that you are referring to 5-MeO-DALT.

[Alfa]

Please post a trip report with clear description of which substance and what dose. Many people will find the information handy.

[snow child]

Dalt it has crossed a swimmer's mind from time to time but to take time from all the 2c-X and doX compounds around wail they are here is what swim is up to so many drug so little time.
_____________________________
"American's the new ginna pig"