Drugs-Forum  
Home Wiki Studies Forum Groups Blog Video Images News
Go Back   Drugs Forum > DRUG-FORUMS > Research Chemicals
Mark Forums Read
Register Tags

Notices

Research Chemicals Piperazines, Phenethylamines, Tryptamines & other designer drugs.

 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 07-06-2012, 04:17
Bad Rabbits Bad Rabbits is offline
Titanium Member
 
Join Date: 14-03-2011
Male from United Kingdom
Posts: 230
Bad Rabbits is on the way upBad Rabbits is on the way upBad Rabbits is on the way upBad Rabbits is on the way up
Points: 455, Level: 3 Points: 455, Level: 3 Points: 455, Level: 3
Activity: 0.1% Activity: 0.1% Activity: 0.1%
Complexing ethylphenidate with suitable cyclodextrin to alleviate insufflation pain?

Complexing Ethylphenidate with suitable Cyclodextrin to alleviate insufflation pain?

Please see several posts down for more information. Thanks for looking!




Original post: (Now defunct)

Will the addition of Sodium Bicarbonate to Ethylphenidate (in its HCL salt form) alleviate some of the obvious corrosive effects on insufflation?

Theory:

1) I understand that when the HCL salt form of a drug is insufflated, free water protons react with the salt, resulting in the formation of Hydrochloric acid.

Am I correct in assuming that this is where the majority of the burning sensation comes from?

2) Assuming the above is correct, there are a few candidates which might be used as an admixture, to hopefully neutralise the Hydrochloric acid.

I am thinking that Bicarbonate of Soda would be most ideal, as it is water soluble and should present no safety concerns (it is administered IV to counteract acidic blood/body tissue). It's ability to safely neutralise Acids aswell as Bases, of course means it is always within arms reach during any kitchen chemistry.

Background:

I've been growing increasingly fond Ethylphenidate as of late. My preferred ROA is insufflation, oral consumption doesn't touch me like insufflation does. I won't change my administration method... Needles are out of the question, as is sticking drugs in my rusty sheriffs badge.

Ethylphenidate genuinely feels like one of the most corrosive compounds I have repeatedly insufflated. No doubt there are worse out there, but with repeated administration I really feel the need to reduce the harm to my nasal passages. OK, 2CX's are bad, but you don't redose every hour or two.

I have access to a small quantity of Lidocaine, which I have pre-administered in the past to help deal with insufflation pain. Of course this works, but it is mearly masking the pain - it isn't addressing the issue of the corrosive nature of the drug. I don't see this as a solution to my problem, and I won't be able to obtain anymore once the (very limited) supply has run out.

Ideally, aswell as addressing the pain - I want to know that I am protecting my nasal passages from destruction.

While I refer to Ethylphenidate repeatedly, it would of course be great to apply this to all manner of drugs in their HCL form.

Bad Rabbits added 29 Minutes and 58 Seconds later...

EDIT: Of course I will trial this at some stage if I don't get any feedback, but I would really appreciate any input on whether this might be effective or not. Any suggestions or criticism welcome. Many thanks.

Last edited by Bad Rabbits; 22-08-2012 at 12:31. Reason: Addition of new title, and redirect to post below.
  #2  
Old 07-06-2012, 18:18
Lodewijkp Lodewijkp is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 03-03-2011
27 y/o Male from Netherlands
Posts: 573
Lodewijkp is on the way upLodewijkp is on the way upLodewijkp is on the way upLodewijkp is on the way up
Points: 373, Level: 3 Points: 373, Level: 3 Points: 373, Level: 3
Activity: 7.4% Activity: 7.4% Activity: 7.4%
Re: Sodium Bicarbonate to alleviate insufflation pain and reduce nasal damage?

i use this to make my body more alkaline and to decalcify my system ( bad calcium deposits)
baking soda is a cancer killer - there is much work done on this subject just google or youtube it.
  #3  
Old 09-06-2012, 15:51
Zeni Zeni is offline
Titanium Member
 
Join Date: 03-12-2008
Male from Belgium
Posts: 249
Zeni really adds to the discussion.Zeni really adds to the discussion.Zeni really adds to the discussion.Zeni really adds to the discussion.Zeni really adds to the discussion.Zeni really adds to the discussion.
Points: 939, Level: 4 Points: 939, Level: 4 Points: 939, Level: 4
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: Sodium Bicarbonate to alleviate insufflation pain and reduce nasal damage?

I think the possible problem with that is that a basic substance converts the ethylphenidate in its freebase, which is water insoluble. Even if one mixes bicarb and EP dry, the conversion can still happen fast enough in one's nose or when some water is present causing it to clog ones nose instead of dissolving and entering the body through the mucous membrane. Swallowing an non polar substance is less of a problem since it will probably get protonated in the acidic environment of the stomach and still enter the body's blood stream. But insufflation of insoluble substances will just lead to clogging.
  #4  
Old 09-06-2012, 17:09
TheFakeBass TheFakeBass is offline
Palladium Member
 
Join Date: 01-07-2008
Female from United States
Posts: 237
TheFakeBass really adds to the discussion.TheFakeBass really adds to the discussion.TheFakeBass really adds to the discussion.TheFakeBass really adds to the discussion.TheFakeBass really adds to the discussion.TheFakeBass really adds to the discussion.
Points: 745, Level: 4 Points: 745, Level: 4 Points: 745, Level: 4
Activity: 1.4% Activity: 1.4% Activity: 1.4%
Re: Sodium Bicarbonate to alleviate insufflation pain and reduce nasal damage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Rabbits View Post
1) I understand that when the HCL salt form of a drug is insufflated, free water protons react with the salt, resulting in the formation of Hydrochloric acid.

Am I correct in assuming that this is where the majority of the burning sensation comes from?
If that were the case, tasting table salt would give you horrible acid burns on your tongue, and soy sauce could be used as a substitute for muriatic acid. Yes, putting the soluble hydrochloride salt of an drug in water will result in dissociation of the ions into DrugH+ and Cl-. Yes, the Cl- will coexist with the water's short-lived natural H30+ ions. But Cl- is a pretty weak base, and it's harmless in reasonably small quantities, as you've noticed if you've ever tasted salty foods or beverages.

The problem is the protonated drug, DrugH+. It will dissociate into H+, which will react with water's short-lived natural OH- ions to give a molecule of water, and freebase Drug, which is the real problem.

The HCl decreases the caustic effect rather than increasing it. Uncharged compounds with an amine group tend to be rather basic (e.g. ammonia), and they become weak acids when protonated (e.g. ammonium ions). Weak acids are much less irritating to mucous membranes than the basic amines. If you don't believe me, try snorting freebase ethylphenidate. (Or most other freebase amines--if you get pleasure from other people's pain, read some anecdotes from people who've snorted freebase DMT, or even touched it with their tongue.)

Post Quality Evaluations:
Great explanation of the stinging feeling that occurs when insufflating amine salt drugs.
  #5  
Old 01-08-2012, 06:03
Bad Rabbits Bad Rabbits is offline
Titanium Member
 
Join Date: 14-03-2011
Male from United Kingdom
Posts: 230
Bad Rabbits is on the way upBad Rabbits is on the way upBad Rabbits is on the way upBad Rabbits is on the way up
Points: 455, Level: 3 Points: 455, Level: 3 Points: 455, Level: 3
Activity: 0.1% Activity: 0.1% Activity: 0.1%
Re: Sodium Bicarbonate to alleviate insufflation pain and reduce nasal damage?

I had completely forgotten about this thread, I only came across it again through Google (looking into the same subject). Woopsy...

I'd like to thank everyone for their informative replies. TheFakeBass has made some excellent points, and in retrospect it seems that I asked a particularly daft question - though I'm glad to be wiser for it.

I'm going to continue to experiment with ways to minimise damage to nasal cavities... or at least, the associated sensation. I'll report back if anything proves worthwhile.

Thanks again for the top replies, I really appreciate your input.
  #6  
Old 22-08-2012, 11:11
Bad Rabbits Bad Rabbits is offline
Titanium Member
 
Join Date: 14-03-2011
Male from United Kingdom
Posts: 230
Bad Rabbits is on the way upBad Rabbits is on the way upBad Rabbits is on the way upBad Rabbits is on the way up
Points: 455, Level: 3 Points: 455, Level: 3 Points: 455, Level: 3
Activity: 0.1% Activity: 0.1% Activity: 0.1%
Re: Sodium Bicarbonate to alleviate insufflation pain and reduce nasal damage?

Complexing Ethylphenidate with suitable Cyclodextrin to alleviate insufflation pain?

I believe that Cyclodextrins (good ol' cyclodextrins) might be able to offer a part-solution to my quest, or at least an improvement on the current pain endured on insufflation. I, like others, am a little obsessed by the possible ways Cyclodextrins might improve our drug taking experience. I like to daydream...

But recently I've grown more and more fond of this idea. So much so, I'm risking (yet again) looking like the fool of DF, in the quest for enlightenment.

Cyclodextrins?

Many will no doubt be familiar with the employment of Cyclodextrins to improve the water solubility of drugs which might otherwise be hopeless. This is not even the tip of the iceberg.

Forget the Nbome complexing some users may have stumbled across. Cyclodextrins are allowing ever more novel drug delivery systems to become reality. Nasal delivery of Benzodiazepines anyone?

To the layman (me) it does seem that Cyclodextrins really are worth pursuing to enhance recreational drug use, of course, only where their application is clearly beneficial. In my opinion, at this present time, there is no more worthy a pursuit than the reduction of insufflation pain associated with Ethylphenidate.

The majority of recreational drugs do not have any problem with water solubility, and administration routes/methods are (on the whole) effective, time tested and established as efficient. But is it not possible that the efficiency or palatability of at least some, can be improved?

Below is a list of possible advantages of the use of Cyclodextrins, typed word for word from 'Cyclodextrins: An excipient tool in drug delivery'. See end of post for full details, I have uploaded the file to the archive - well worth a quick read. I have highlighted in bold the claims which are most relevant to my goal; reduction of insufflation pain.

Quote:
1. CDs help in improving the aqueous solubility of many poorly soluble drugs.
2. CDs enhances the dissolution thus helps in enhancing the bioavailability of drugs.
3. CDs complexation improves the chemical, physical and thermal stability of drugs.
4. CDs inclusion complexation helps in ameliorating the irritancy of the drug moiety that irrates the stomach, skin or eye.
5. CDs cloak the unpleasant odour and bitter taste of drugs.

6. Complexing oily or sticky substances with CDs into microcrystalline or amorphus powders help in improving the material handling properties.
7. Formulation of modified release preparations.
8. CDs helps in decreasing the toxic effects associated with drugs.
9. CDs have also been used in the novel pharmaceutical applications. *1
So, for my goal...

Which Cyclodextrin might be suitable for Ethylphenidate, if any?

No idea. As of yet... Anything I would suggest will be a poor guess. I am seeking help with this, though if anyone cares to chime in I would be most grateful.

Practical

This is going to be largely trial and error with regard to method of producing the complex. Some methods will be out of the question for me, for example freeze drying and methods which involve supercritical fluids.

The majority of the established techniques, I believe I will be able to emulate. Again, I expect trial and error to dominate the methodology throughout.

I have no idea which would be most suitable for any given compound/cyclodextrin goal - though I'll most likely start with the easiest methods, and work my way up.

If, when scrutinised, it appears there might be some merit in this idea - everything will be approached methodically, thoroughly documented, and this thread will be updated.

Maybe the best I could ever hope for is a gooey mess? I just don't know...



There is lots more coming, but I may have to wait until tomorrow, or at the best later tonight. Any input in the meantime greatly appreciated.


Mental state disclaimer:
For the record,I'm not completely mad. I've been aware of Cyclodextrins for a long time, and in no way do I think they are a magic 1-up for every recreational drug. I don't personally have the knowledge to tackle this alone, as such I have largely refrained from ranting, raving and asking endless daft questions... "Will drug ABC fit in Cyclodextrin XYC?" repeatedly. Yes, my post is very much pro-cyclodextrin... and I can't lie, it does get me excited. I think other people should know about their applications.

^ That being said, I would really like to address this issue of insufflation pain, and if complexation with a suitable Cyclodextrin might offer some hope of alleviation, I will really put my back into this. Any tips would be massively appreciated.

After my dream is either swiftly crushed, slowly destroyed or *maybe* yields something close to a result; I will continue to dream about the possibilities of Cyclodextrins in silence and not bother anyone again.

EDIT: OK, Damnit! I now know this is never going to work with Ethylphenidate. Grrr...

*1 Cyclodextrins: An Excipient tool in drug delivery. Ali Nasir, Harikumar S.L. and Kaur Amanpreet.

Last edited by Bad Rabbits; 22-08-2012 at 13:20. Reason: Top secret.
  #7  
Old 23-06-2013, 01:23
charliewhite charliewhite is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: 20-01-2013
Male from Ireland
Posts: 5
charliewhite should review received reputation comments.
Points: 6, Level: 1 Points: 6, Level: 1 Points: 6, Level: 1
Activity: 0.3% Activity: 0.3% Activity: 0.3%
Re: Complexing ethylphenidate with suitable cyclodextrin to alleviate insufflation pa

im am also curious about your idea of making a complex with cyclodextrins to make dosing sizes and insufflation of ethylpendiate and other potent low dosage research chemicals more soluble and easier on the nasal passages,did you attempt making a complex/mixture with mentioned materials?if so could you tell me the easiest method of complexing as i would have basic chemistry knowledge but im no expert!,i tried finding mixing ratios and basic methods and the basic water method seems to be the simplest route from what i can gather,
any help or info is appreciated

charliewhite added 20 Minutes and 39 Seconds later...

also if any one has any other idea,s for making insufflation easier that may be a easier alternative than complexing if its even possible? bar the fairly innefective mixing rc,s with anasthetics which was used in novelty bath salts or similar products,i would be intersted in your experiences/ideas )

Last edited by charliewhite; 23-06-2013 at 01:23. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #8  
Old 04-06-2014, 18:45
malkmus malkmus is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: 25-06-2010
Male from Canada
Posts: 6
malkmus is an unknown quantity at this point
Points: 6, Level: 1 Points: 6, Level: 1 Points: 6, Level: 1
Activity: 0.8% Activity: 0.8% Activity: 0.8%
Re: Complexing ethylphenidate with suitable cyclodextrin to alleviate insufflation pa

What about cutting with Methylsulfonylmethane(MSM)

Not a chemist, don't know if this makes sense.

From Wiki:

"MSM and the corresponding sulfoxide dimethyl sulfoxide ((CH3)2SO, DMSO) have different physical properties. MSM is a white crystalline solid at STP (m.p. = 109 C) whereas DMSO is a liquid under standard conditions. The sulfoxide is a highly polar aprotic solvent and is miscible with water; it is also an excellent ligand. MSM is less reactive than DMSO because the S-atom of the sulfone is already in its highest oxidation state (VI). Indeed oxidation of the sulfoxide produces the sulfone, both under laboratory conditions and metabolically."

Share this on:

Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
INSIDER INFORMATION: Opiate Prescriptions. CRAWL INSIDE YOUR DOC'S HEAD!!! Richard_smoker Opiates & Opioids 37 04-11-2013 04:54

» New Threads
mermaid & flounder
Last post by therareone
5 Replies, 281 Views
N-MOB-5-APB (aka 5-APB-NBOMe)...
Last post by uncle_bud
6 Replies, 340 Views
Preparing for w/d, please help me...
Last post by Ppopper
6 Replies, 150 Views
multitopic thread
Last post by Pace e amore
0 Replies, 1 Views
Brown GBL - A health risk?
Last post by hookedonhelping
25 Replies, 892 Views
first post methadone taper
Last post by SoozyQ
151 Replies, 7,741 Views
Methadone,Heroin...
Last post by SoozyQ
5 Replies, 303 Views
Yolanda's Hydrocodone taper is...
Last post by SoozyQ
64 Replies, 3,401 Views
Need help for friend
Last post by Ppopper
5 Replies, 247 Views
ive finally jumped from 20 year...
Last post by SoozyQ
252 Replies, 18,624 Views
» New Wiki Articles
DXM
GHB
NET

Sitelinks: Information:

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:50.


Copyright: SIN Foundation 2003 - 2014, All rights reserved