Drugs-Forum  
Home Wiki Studies Forum Groups Blog Video Images News
Go Back   Drugs Forum > VARIOUS DRUG RELATED TOPICS > The euphoric body > Drug testing
Mark Forums Read
Register Tags

Notices

Drug testing What can you do against drug testing & more...

 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 05-06-2012, 06:54
plshelp plshelp is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: 05-06-2012
Male from Earth
Posts: 8
plshelp is an unknown quantity at this point
Points: 38, Level: 1 Points: 38, Level: 1 Points: 38, Level: 1
Activity: 1.0% Activity: 1.0% Activity: 1.0%
Lamotrigine causing false positive for various synthetic cannabinoids

Haven't seen this anywhere on the internet. I am currently on probation. I do not use synthetic cannabinoids, however, after starting lamotrigine I have began to false positive on my drug screens. My probation officer says that I'm smoking spice and that I will have to go before a judge! It also seems that it could give a false positive for hydrocodone abuse as it is metabolized into morphine, and I currently take hydrocodone for a recent back injury!

Here is what I have so far, hopefully someone here can help me.

Lamotrigine (Lamictal)
6-(2,3-dicholorphenyl)-1,2,4-triazine-3,5-diamine

metabolites
3,5-diamino-6-(2-methoxyphenyl)-1,2,4-triazine
morphine-3-glucuronide-D3

Synthetic Cannabinoids

JWH-250
2-(2-methoxyphenyl)-1-(1-pentylindol-3-yl)ethanone

SR-18
1-(1-(2-cyclohexylethyl)-1H-indol-3-yl-2-(2-methoxyphenyl)ethanone

RCS-8
2(2-methoxyphenyl-1-[1-(2-cyclohexylethyl)indol-3-yl]ethanone

Cannbipiperdiethanone
2-(2-methoxyphenyl)-1-[1-([1-methylpiperidin-2-yl]methyl)indol-3-yl]ethanone

I'm sure there are more, this is what I have found so far.

Must be a common metabolite. I sure do see (2-methoxyphenyl) in common. Anyone with better chemistry knowledge able to help me out? I don't want to go to jail for doing nothing wrong at all! I tried to explain what I understood to my probation officer but she doesn't seem to be very bright and laughed and told me to get out of her office. (Our wonderful justice system at work, lol.)

Any idea how these chemicals are metabolized? Am I right to assume it is the (2-methoxyphenyl) causing the test to trip?

Also. I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to steal what I've found out. I know I'm on to something here and have already emailed John Huffman. :P j/k You're all mostly reputable.

plshelp added 3 Minutes and 57 Seconds later...

Also, AFOAF is bipolar as well and mentioned that while using cannabinoids containing (2-methoxyphenyl) his symptoms were completely controlled and it was as if he were not bipolar at all. AFOAF's friends and family agree. AFOAF also mentioned that no bipolar medications worked as well for him as Lamotrigine, which he also takes. We may be on to a legitimate use for some of these RCs!

SCIENCE! FUCK YEAH!

plshelp added 12 Minutes and 1 Seconds later...

I should mention the everything I am currently on/using.

I smoke mentholated cigarettes. I drink caffeinated beverages. I take hydrocodone 10/aceta 325 three times daily, lisinipril 20mg twice daily and lamotrigine 200mg once daily. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE help me. I do not want to go to jail!

plshelp added 107 Minutes and 21 Seconds later...

Question

How are quinolines and quinones related?

Some synthetic cannabinoids are quinolines.

Quinoline C9H7N

Lamotrigine C9H7N5

This is where the relation is. I know it.

On the wikipedia page for Cannabidiol, I see that Cannabidiol is insoluble in water but soluble in organic solvents, such as pentane. At room temperature it is a colorless crystalline solid. In strongly basic medium and the presence of air it is oxidized to a quinone. Under acidic conditions it cyclizes to THC. The synthesis of cannabidiol has been accomplished by several research groups.

Synthetic cannabinoids are also insoluble in water but soluble in organic solvents. They are mostly a white or colorless crystalline solid. Not sure if they are oxidized to a quinone in the presence of air, although I can't see why they wouldn't being cannabinoids.

The interesting part here, is where it says that under acidic conditions it cyclizes to THC.

I theorize that lamotrigine is converted into a chemical structure similar to or perhaps even a synthetic cannabinoid when in the acidic conditions of either the stomach or in the bladder in urine.

Someone stop me if I'm way off here, or point me in the right direction so I can keep plugging away.

Last edited by plshelp; 05-06-2012 at 06:54. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #2  
Old 05-06-2012, 07:06
Rob Cypher Rob Cypher is nu online
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 30-05-2010
Male from United States
Posts: 1,838
Rob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline Medline
Points: 5,017, Level: 10 Points: 5,017, Level: 10 Points: 5,017, Level: 10
Activity: 19.0% Activity: 19.0% Activity: 19.0%
Re: Lamotrigine causing false positive for various synthetic cannabinoids

I don't know that much about pharmacology, but I don't see how Lamictal could be mistaken for synthetic weed at all. It sounds like you're trying to build a "reasonable doubt" defense here.

However...Lamictal has come up as a false positive for PCP on some tests. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3047872/

But...saying things like:

"Also, AFOAF is bipolar as well and mentioned that while using cannabinoids containing (2-methoxyphenyl) his symptoms were completely controlled and it was as if he were not bipolar at all. AFOAF's friends and family agree. AFOAF also mentioned that no bipolar medications worked as well for him as Lamotrigine, which he also takes. We may be on to a legitimate use for some of these RCs!"

gives me the impression that you're still using the stuff, because it almost comes off as some sort of justification to me.

Use the link I posted above (and Google for "Lamictal false positives" for more links), print the information out for your PO, and see if they'll run a more comprehensive drug screen on you. I have to warn you though; if they do this and you still test positive they will put the whammy on you for lying. Just speaking from the perspective of someone who's been there themselves.

Take care.

Post Quality Evaluations:
Astute observation. It does feel a bit like throwing a hundred explanations against the wall and hoping one of them might stick.
  #3  
Old 05-06-2012, 08:00
plshelp plshelp is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: 05-06-2012
Male from Earth
Posts: 8
plshelp is an unknown quantity at this point
Points: 38, Level: 1 Points: 38, Level: 1 Points: 38, Level: 1
Activity: 1.0% Activity: 1.0% Activity: 1.0%
Re: Lamotrigine causing false positive for various synthetic cannabinoids

I'm clean and have been. I've passed every test right up until the test I took the day after I started Lamotrigine (Lamictal).

I've heard that there are also reactions between cannabinoids and opiates.

Jesus.

There is simply too much crap for me to sift through.

plshelp added 2 Minutes and 58 Seconds later...

Which synthetic cannabinoids are quinolines? This will greatly help my research.

plshelp added 42 Minutes and 3 Seconds later...

May not be related to the lamotrigine at all, although it is still a suspect. Apparently Paracetamol (or acetaminophen in the U.S.A.) is metabolically combined with arachidonic acid by FAAH to form AM404. Thats right, children. Tylenol creates AM404, which is related to the AM series of research chemicals. (Like AM-2201)

Or it is a combination of the Lamotrigine and the Hydrocodone/Acetaminophen I am on, given that both are similar to these RCs.

I just keep on pluggin' away! Gonna figure this out if it kills me, I'd rather be dead than in jail.

Last edited by plshelp; 05-06-2012 at 08:00. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #4  
Old 05-06-2012, 08:10
Wyatt Burp Wyatt Burp is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 22-12-2010
Male from United States
Posts: 33
Wyatt Burp is learning how to become a psychonaut.
Points: 76, Level: 1 Points: 76, Level: 1 Points: 76, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: Lamotrigine causing false positive for various synthetic cannabinoids

Quote:
Originally Posted by plshelp View Post
May not be related to the lamotrigine at all, although it is still a suspect. Apparently Paracetamol (or acetaminophen in the U.S.A.) is metabolically combined with arachidonic acid by FAAH to form AM404. Thats right, children. Tylenol creates AM404, which is related to the AM series of research chemicals. (Like AM-2201)
I'm not familiar with AM-404. Just because it is an "AM" chemical does not necessarily mean it is closely related to AM-2201 or has common metabolites. Is it chemically or pharmacologicaly similar?
  #5  
Old 05-06-2012, 08:15
Rob Cypher Rob Cypher is nu online
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 30-05-2010
Male from United States
Posts: 1,838
Rob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline Medline
Points: 5,017, Level: 10 Points: 5,017, Level: 10 Points: 5,017, Level: 10
Activity: 19.0% Activity: 19.0% Activity: 19.0%
Re: Lamotrigine causing false positive for various synthetic cannabinoids

From Wikipedia:

"AM404, also known as N-(4-hydroxyphenyl)arachidonoylethanolamide, is an active metabolite of paracetamol (acetaminophen), responsible for all or part of its analgesic action.

AM404 was originally reported to be an endogenous cannabinoid reuptake inhibitor, preventing the transport of anandamide and other related compounds back from the synaptic cleft, much in the same way that common SSRI antidepressants prevent the reuptake of serotonin. Recent work on the mechanism of AM404 has suggested that the inhibition of fatty acid amide hydrolase (FAAH) by AM404 is likely responsible for all of its attributed "reuptake" properties, since intracellular FAAH hydrolysis of anandamide changes the intra/extracellular anandamide equilibrium.

AM404 is also a TRPV1 agonist and inhibitor of cyclooxygenase COX-1 and COX-2, thus attenuating prostaglandin synthesis. AM404 is thought to induce its analgesic action through its activity on the endocannabinoid, COX, and TRPV systems, all of which are present in pain and thermoregulatory pathways."

I don't think this is relevant, because so many people take aspirin (at least once a week or so) that this would be causing a ton of false positives, and I don't see any evidence for that [at least from looking on Google]. It sounds like the OP is scrambling for an excuse here...

OP: Have you violated before? If this is your first violation, they might just make you go to a rehab. If it's not...well...you know. I don't think you're going to be able to beat this. Sorry. :/

Post Quality Evaluations:
Clear cited information about AM404
helpful addition to this thread
  #6  
Old 05-06-2012, 08:31
Wyatt Burp Wyatt Burp is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 22-12-2010
Male from United States
Posts: 33
Wyatt Burp is learning how to become a psychonaut.
Points: 76, Level: 1 Points: 76, Level: 1 Points: 76, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: Lamotrigine causing false positive for various synthetic cannabinoids

Now that I've thought about it, I have to say you should probably do whatever it takes to get clean. You probably have time to stop taking whatever it is that makes you test dirty, go through your legal procedures and continue to proclaim your innocence, and hope to be retested. Whether you've been getting high or taking a legitimate medication, once the court's officers suspect the former, the easiest path to maintaining your freedom may be to stop the legit. medication and give them the results they want to see. Then they'll leave you alone, sooner or later.

If you are not in fact getting high, I'm sorry, but the system is sometimes rather harsh, to guard against the BS'ers who scream about their innocence and grasp at all plausible excuses despite being huge stoners. Good luck, and talk to your doctor, as prescribing physicians are essentially required (and often willing) to come to the defense of patients who are wrongly accused of breaking the law (or violating probation). They understand the science and any uncertainty that may be causing your most recent legal problem.

Wyatt Burp added 10 Minutes and 51 Seconds later...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Cypher View Post
It sounds like the OP is scrambling for an excuse here...

OP: Have you violated before? If this is your first violation, they might just make you go to a rehab. If it's not...well...you know. I don't think you're going to be able to beat this. Sorry. :/
Agreed. And for a first violation, they may just extend or restart your probation, increase testing/reporting frequency, etc., and not revoke you or require rehab. If it is not a first violation (or even if it is, which is already strike two, since you've done something to warrant the probation), it is probably time to give up whatever substance(s) might be causing your "imperial entanglements", and if you can't, you may need rehab, court-ordered or otherwise. We all like things that make us feel good, but sometimes these things (legal or not) come with risks, which may not always be worth continued use.

We are absolutely not trying to preach here, but you have GOT to be careful with the drugs you do. Some are bad for your body, others are just bad for your freedom. Gotta weigh the pros and cons, and if it causes more harm to you than enjoyment or good, get away from it.

Last edited by Wyatt Burp; 05-06-2012 at 08:31. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #7  
Old 05-06-2012, 08:41
plshelp plshelp is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: 05-06-2012
Male from Earth
Posts: 8
plshelp is an unknown quantity at this point
Points: 38, Level: 1 Points: 38, Level: 1 Points: 38, Level: 1
Activity: 1.0% Activity: 1.0% Activity: 1.0%
Re: Lamotrigine causing false positive for various synthetic cannabinoids

Figured it out.

Three things led to my false positive drug test.

1) My diet, consisting almost solely of pizza and cheeseburgers. It has been shown that a high fat diet leads to increased levels of Anandamide, an endogenous cannabinoid neurotransmitter. Anandamide is transformed into arachidonic acid through degredation by FAAH (Fatty Acid Amide Hydrolaze).

2) My prescription for Hydrocodone 10mg / Acetaminophen 325mg. Arachidonic acid is combined with acetaminophen by FAAH to create AM-404, which is similar to the other AM series of drugs that were commonly abused such as AM-2201. Acetaminophen acts as a pro-drug for a cannabimimetic metabolite.

3) Similarities between Lamotrigine (Lamictal) and the quinoline cannabimimetics. (I do not fully understand this, but I am POSITIVE that there are shared metabolites between Lamotrigine and some synthetic cannabinoids. Hopefully my research will help shed some light on its full mechanism of action and possibly even lead to better medications for bipolar disorder.)
  #8  
Old 05-06-2012, 08:53
Rob Cypher Rob Cypher is nu online
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 30-05-2010
Male from United States
Posts: 1,838
Rob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline Medline
Points: 5,017, Level: 10 Points: 5,017, Level: 10 Points: 5,017, Level: 10
Activity: 19.0% Activity: 19.0% Activity: 19.0%
Re: Lamotrigine causing false positive for various synthetic cannabinoids

OP: I don't see the AM404 connection at all. College athletes have been forced to take drug tests for synthetic weed for at least two years now (at least the NCAA folks); I'm pretty sure most of them are actively taking prescribed Vicodin/percocet/some other opiate mixed with acetaminophen, and they're not routinely popping up with false positives for synthetic weed.
  #9  
Old 05-06-2012, 09:00
plshelp plshelp is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: 05-06-2012
Male from Earth
Posts: 8
plshelp is an unknown quantity at this point
Points: 38, Level: 1 Points: 38, Level: 1 Points: 38, Level: 1
Activity: 1.0% Activity: 1.0% Activity: 1.0%
Re: Lamotrigine causing false positive for various synthetic cannabinoids

They also don't have a diet consisting entirely of cheeseburgers and pizza, which causes elevated levels of anandamine, or take acetaminophen at levels around 1400mg a day daily either. I do.

I'm also sensing a reaction between the hydro/aceta and the Lamotrigine, but I'm not quite able to finger it yet.

plshelp added 1 Minutes and 15 Seconds later...

I take high levels of hydro/aceta because of a recent spinal injury. Also explains the diet; Who wants to cook with a spinal injury? Hell, sitting here at the computer hurts like hell and I'm manic, but I'm afraid to take my meds now.

Last edited by plshelp; 05-06-2012 at 09:00. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #10  
Old 05-06-2012, 10:46
Rob Cypher Rob Cypher is nu online
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 30-05-2010
Male from United States
Posts: 1,838
Rob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline Medline
Points: 5,017, Level: 10 Points: 5,017, Level: 10 Points: 5,017, Level: 10
Activity: 19.0% Activity: 19.0% Activity: 19.0%
Re: Lamotrigine causing false positive for various synthetic cannabinoids

Quote:
Originally Posted by plshelp View Post
They also don't have a diet consisting entirely of cheeseburgers and pizza, which causes elevated levels of anandamine, or take acetaminophen at levels around 1400mg a day daily either. I do.

I'm also sensing a reaction between the hydro/aceta and the Lamotrigine, but I'm not quite able to finger it yet.

plshelp added 1 Minutes and 15 Seconds later...

I take high levels of hydro/aceta because of a recent spinal injury. Also explains the diet; Who wants to cook with a spinal injury? Hell, sitting here at the computer hurts like hell and I'm manic, but I'm afraid to take my meds now.
I'm pretty sure most of the offensive/defensive linemen have fattier diets (with higher levels of anadamine) than you, with them being 320 lbs on average and all. Again, I must tell you that your hypothesis is lacking in actual evidence right now. Your PO and judge are just going to use "Occam's Razor" for this situation if you come at them with this argument, since there's no proof to back it up from any sort of literature (ie, they're going to think you're just BSing and lying to them). I would strongly advise you not to be deceptive to your PO here; I've been in your situation before and it just netted me 6-11 months in jail every time I lied/not reported to them.
  #11  
Old 05-06-2012, 22:25
exdmd exdmd is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 23-06-2010
Male from Earth
Posts: 29
exdmd is learning how to become a psychonaut.
Points: 42, Level: 1 Points: 42, Level: 1 Points: 42, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: Lamotrigine causing false positive for various synthetic cannabinoids

You have nothing to worry about if you are not using spice. Tell your PO the urine screen for synthetic cannabinoids is registering a false positive and insist on GC/MS verification. That should clear you.

Remember you have no rights when you are on probation, and pissing off your PO is probably not a great idea unless you want your time on probation to be a living hell.

Last edited by exdmd; 06-06-2012 at 20:42. Reason: sp
  #12  
Old 06-06-2012, 20:56
plshelp plshelp is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: 05-06-2012
Male from Earth
Posts: 8
plshelp is an unknown quantity at this point
Points: 38, Level: 1 Points: 38, Level: 1 Points: 38, Level: 1
Activity: 1.0% Activity: 1.0% Activity: 1.0%
Re: Lamotrigine causing false positive for various synthetic cannabinoids

It is an interaction between opiods and acetaminophen. Results have been replicated in a friend who doesn't use who is on codeine/acetaminophen. Or it is just the acetaminophen, will keep poking away until I'm sure. I had noticed my tests were faded in the past after starting hydrocodone but thought nothing of it until now.

plshelp added 2 Minutes and 29 Seconds later...

Can we change the name of the thread to spice false positive? Especially now that I don't believe it was the lamotrigine.

plshelp added 317 Minutes and 20 Seconds later...

The reason why athletes don't pop positive is because they stay well hydrated and sweat a lot. If you drink a lot of water hydrocodone won't even show up. I asked around at drug testing facilities here in town.

Last edited by plshelp; 06-06-2012 at 20:56. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #13  
Old 06-06-2012, 23:54
Phenoxide Phenoxide is offline
Research Chemicals Forum
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: 11-10-2009
Male from United Kingdom
Posts: 4,521
Phenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond repute
Points: 19,872, Level: 20 Points: 19,872, Level: 20 Points: 19,872, Level: 20
Activity: 28.3% Activity: 28.3% Activity: 28.3%
Re: Lamotrigine causing false positive for various synthetic cannabinoids

What substance did you actually test positive for, and which types of tests were performed (e.g. dipstick immunoassay, GC/MS, LC-MS/MS)? Spice is a brand name rather than a specific chemical.

It does seem you're clutching at straws a little with some of the explanations you're proposing. A high fat diet is not going to spike a false positive in a drug screen. Endogenous cannabinoids are totally distinct from the illicit synthetic cannabinoids that are routinely tested for. There's absolutely no structural relationship between lamotrigine and synthetic cannabinoids that could lead to one being confused for the other. AM-404 is not something that would be tested for unless there was a specific reason for doing so as it is not a controlled substance. However without knowing what the test results specifically detailed it's hard to say whether a false positive is possible or indeed probable.
  #14  
Old 07-06-2012, 00:52
Teknicality Teknicality is offline
Account Awaiting Email Confirmation.
 
Join Date: 04-07-2011
Male from United States
Posts: 105
Teknicality is an unknown quantity at this point
Points: 81, Level: 1 Points: 81, Level: 1 Points: 81, Level: 1
Activity: 4.6% Activity: 4.6% Activity: 4.6%
Re: Lamotrigine causing false positive for various synthetic cannabinoids

I think what the op is getting at is that he believes that the unusual amount of AM404 in his system might break down in a way similar to other more illegal AM compounds and be detected as such in his drug screening. I've been reading this thread a bit and it seems like you should keep taking your meds and if your PO has a problem with that he should consult your doctor. As long as you aren't lying the burden of proof should be on him, although it is not because it's not a trial and like someone else pointed out you really don't have any rights while you're on probation.
  #15  
Old 07-06-2012, 01:18
Rob Cypher Rob Cypher is nu online
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 30-05-2010
Male from United States
Posts: 1,838
Rob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline MedlineRob Cypher must mainline Medline
Points: 5,017, Level: 10 Points: 5,017, Level: 10 Points: 5,017, Level: 10
Activity: 19.0% Activity: 19.0% Activity: 19.0%
Re: Lamotrigine causing false positive for various synthetic cannabinoids

I can't see acetaminophen causing a false positive on a test for synthetic weed. I have not seen any cases (looking on Google, anyway) where acetaminophen was implicated in causing false positives. If he's somehow right, than those tests are basically useless, since a lot of people take acetaminophen; some very often. All of those college athletes who got busted last year could claim this if it was true (because you know many of them take hydrocodone/acetaminophen themselves). Furthermore, most of the synthetic weed tests out there only detect a few of the more popular JWH brands, IIRC. AM404 isn't one of them.
  #16  
Old 07-06-2012, 04:01
plshelp plshelp is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: 05-06-2012
Male from Earth
Posts: 8
plshelp is an unknown quantity at this point
Points: 38, Level: 1 Points: 38, Level: 1 Points: 38, Level: 1
Activity: 1.0% Activity: 1.0% Activity: 1.0%
Re: Lamotrigine causing false positive for various synthetic cannabinoids

The test that I had was one of the dipsticks manufactured by Redwood Toxicology Laboratories.

I called them twice and asked them if they were aware that a common OTC medication could cause a false positive on their drug testing dipsticks. They hung up immediately both times.

I have found through my research that analogues of synthetic cannabinoids are found in a lot of items, from synthetic chocolate to synthetic motor oil.

So far: Tylenol, Chocolate, Motor Oil. Large jump between the three of these items, so there has to be more in between. Being on probation and being tested for cannabinoids (at least being tested by the dipsticks) is like playing Russian roulette with your freedom, and indeed, some innocent people have lost this game and are now in jail asking themselves what the hell happened. Other people have lost their jobs. Maybe even their houses and cars because they lost their job. All from headache medicine.

I've contacted the media, and they're working on this right now. Redwood won't have a choice but to come out with their tests shortcomings after this spectacle.

In my opinion, Redwood Laboratories wanted in on the synthetic marijuana cashflow without making and selling it themselves, so they rushed out a test without even thinking about the fact that there are plenty of synthetic cannabinoids in legal products. They wanted money, with no regards to the lives that they would be damaging. They're just as bad as the people pushing these drugs as far as I'm concerned.

plshelp added 4 Minutes and 27 Seconds later...

@Phenoxide A high fat diet leads to higher levels of anadamide, which leads to higher levels of arachidonic acid, which means there is more arachidonic acid in the system to bind to acetaminophen to create AM404. Anandamide is an endogenous cannabinoid, but AM404 is not.

plshelp added 6 Minutes and 6 Seconds later...

Also, there are similarities between the quinoline family of cannbinoids and lamotrigine. The chemical formula for Quinoline is C9H7N, the chemical formula for Lamotrigine is C9H7Cl2N5. Also, napthalene is an analogue of quinoline without the nitrogen atom, and another name for quinoline itself is 1-azanapthalene. Look at the chemical names of some of those cannbinoids I posted in the OP.

Jwh-073 napthalen-1-yl-(1-buylindol-3-yl)methanone

Jwh-200 Cl-(2-morpholin-4-ylethyl)indole-3-yl)-napthalen-1-ylmethanone

To name just a couple of them. It is possible also that these tests check for metabolites of napthalene.

Last edited by plshelp; 07-06-2012 at 04:01. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #17  
Old 07-06-2012, 04:26
Phenoxide Phenoxide is offline
Research Chemicals Forum
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: 11-10-2009
Male from United Kingdom
Posts: 4,521
Phenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond repute
Points: 19,872, Level: 20 Points: 19,872, Level: 20 Points: 19,872, Level: 20
Activity: 28.3% Activity: 28.3% Activity: 28.3%
Re: Lamotrigine causing false positive for various synthetic cannabinoids

Quote:
Originally Posted by plshelp View Post
The test that I had was one of the dipsticks manufactured by Redwood Toxicology Laboratories.
Synthetic cannabinoids cannot currently be tested for with dipsticks. If the test was conducted by Redwood then it would've been an LC-MS/MS test. The mass spectrometer can determine the mass and fragmentation pattern of each drug metabolite. This information coupled with LC retention time makes the probability of false positives very low because each drug metabolite generates its own characteristic footprint.

Quote:
I called them twice and asked them if they were aware that a common OTC medication could cause a false positive on their drug testing dipsticks. They hung up immediately both times.
Your probation officer should've provided you with the test documentation from Redwood though. This should say which specific synthetic cannabinoid was identified in the urine sample. You should also be able to request further documentation regarding the test if you're disputing the result.

Quote:
I have found through my research that analogues of synthetic cannabinoids are found in a lot of items, from synthetic chocolate to synthetic motor oil.
Your research has obviously reached the wrong conclusion. The synthetic cannabinoids which Redwood test for (i.e. several napthoylindoles, benzoylindoles, and phenylacetylindoles from the JWH-x and AM-x series) are not found in chocolate or motor oil. They are not naturally occurring products, nor do they have any legitimate use as anything other as cannabinoid drugs. I think you've misunderstood just how broad the term cannabinoid is and that Redwood are only testing for a very selective subset of drugs within that broad field.

Quote:
I've contacted the media, and they're working on this right now. Redwood won't have a choice but to come out with their tests shortcomings after this spectacle. In my opinion, Redwood Laboratories wanted in on the synthetic marijuana cashflow without making and selling it themselves, so they rushed out a test without even thinking about the fact that there are plenty of synthetic cannabinoids in legal products.
Redwood have a wealth of experience in analytical and forensic chemistry. Their tests are designed to be extremely specific and robust because they know that to retain the contracts they hold for probation testing that their tests must be suitable. Unless you have some technical details about their test that you are disputing then that accusation is rather baseless I'm afraid. And as I said before, the synthetic cannabinoids that Redwood test for are not found in legal products, because the cannabinoids they test for are controlled substances.

Quote:
@Phenoxide A high fat diet leads to higher levels of anadamide, which leads to higher levels of arachidonic acid, which means there is more arachidonic acid in the system to bind to acetaminophen to create AM404. Anandamide is an endogenous cannabinoid, but AM404 is not.
Andandamide has nothing to do with the synthetic cannabinoid tests that Redwood perform. Neither does AM-404. They do not test for either of those substances, nor do either of them share any structural relationship with the controlled substances that they do test for that is likely to lead to a false positive.

Quote:
Also, there are similarities between the quinoline family of cannbinoids and lamotrigine. The chemical formula for Quinoline is C9H7N, the chemical formula for Lamotrigine is C9H7Cl2N5. Also, napthalene is an analogue of quinoline without the nitrogen atom, and another name for quinoline itself is 1-azanapthalene. Look at the chemical names of some of those cannbinoids I posted in the OP.
No they're really not similar at all.. you're reading far too much into the names. There is no structural relationship between the two and they are very easily distinguished by LC-MS/MS. What you are suggesting is akin to saying that cyanide and sugar are related because they both contain carbon. Mass spectrometry is a fair bit more sophisticated when it comes to distinguishing between compounds.

Quote:
It is possible also that these tests check for metabolites of napthalene.
No it's not possible. They test for hydroxylated derivatives of the several specific cannabinoids that are named in their testing documentation. The test is designed to be selective for metabolites of these specific illicit substances. As I said they've got a wealth of experience in this field.. they know what they're doing when it comes to constructing a suitable assay.
  #18  
Old 07-06-2012, 06:12
plshelp plshelp is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: 05-06-2012
Male from Earth
Posts: 8
plshelp is an unknown quantity at this point
Points: 38, Level: 1 Points: 38, Level: 1 Points: 38, Level: 1
Activity: 1.0% Activity: 1.0% Activity: 1.0%
Re: Lamotrigine causing false positive for various synthetic cannabinoids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenoxide View Post
Synthetic cannabinoids cannot currently be tested for with dipsticks. If the test was conducted by Redwood then it would've been an LC-MS/MS test. The mass spectrometer can determine the mass and fragmentation pattern of each drug metabolite. This information coupled with LC retention time makes the probability of false positives very low because each drug metabolite generates its own characteristic footprint.
Oh, look at that. Disappeared from the website. Good job, Phenoxide. I bet my drug testing facitlity still has a box of them laying around, though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenoxide View Post
Your probation officer should've provided you with the test documentation from Redwood though. This should say which specific synthetic cannabinoid was identified in the urine sample. You should also be able to request further documentation regarding the test if you're disputing the result.
Impossible, since it was a dipstick. It has positive or negative for synthetic marijuana. That is all.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenoxide View Post
Your research has obviously reached the wrong conclusion. The synthetic cannabinoids which Redwood test for (i.e. several napthoylindoles, benzoylindoles, and phenylacetylindoles from the JWH-x and AM-x series) are not found in chocolate or motor oil. They are not naturally occurring products, nor do they have any legitimate use as anything other as cannabinoid drugs. I think you've misunderstood just how broad the term cannabinoid is and that Redwood are only testing for a very selective subset of drugs within that broad field.
I said analogues of them, not the cannabinoids themselves. Their metabolites would still be similar enough to trip a test. How else do you explain all other false positives?

Here are some great examples:

THC - Substances or Conditions which can cause false positives
Dronabinol (Marinol)
Ibuprofen; (Advil, Nuprin, Motrin, Excedrin IB etc)
Ketoprofen (Orudis KT)
Kidney infection (Kidney disease, diabetes) Liver Disease
Naproxen (Aleve)
Promethazine (Phenergan, Promethegan)
Riboflavin (B2, Hempseed Oil)

Amphetamines - Substances or Conditions which can cause false positives

Ephedrine, pseudoephedrine, propylephedrine, phenylephrine, or desoxyephedrine
(Nyquil, Contact, Sudafed, Allerest, Tavist-D, Dimetapp, etc)
Phenegan-D, Robitussin Cold and Flu, Vicks Nyquil
Over-the-counter diet aids with phenylpropanolamine (Dexatrim, Accutrim)
Over-the-counter nasal sprays (Vicks inhaler, Afrin)
Asthma medications (Marax, Bronkaid tablets, Primatine Tablets)
Prescription medications (Amfepramone, Cathne, Etafediabe, Morazone,phendimetrazine, phenmetrazine, benzphetamine, fenfluramine, dexfenfluramine,dexdenfluramine,Redux, mephentermine, Mesocarb, methoxyphenamine, phentermine,amineptine, Pholedrine, hydroymethamphetamine, Dexedrine, amifepramone, clobenzorex,fenproyorex, mefenorex, fenelylline, Didrex, dextroamphetamine, methphenidate, Ritalin,pemoline, Cylert, selegiline, Deprenyl, Eldepryl, Famprofazone) Kidney infection, kidney disease, Liver disease, diabetes

Opiates - Substances or Conditions which can cause false positives

Poppy Seeds
Tylenol with codeine
Most prescription pain medications
Cough suppressants with Dextromethorphan (DXM)
Nyquil
Kidney infection, Kidney Disease
Diabetes, Liver Disease

Ecstacy - Substances or Conditions which can cause false positives

Ephedrine, pseudoephedrine, propylephedrine, phenylephrine, or desoxyephedrine
(Nyquil, Contact, Sudafed, Allerest, Tavist-D, Dimetapp, etc)
Phenegan-D, Robitussin Cold and Flu, Vicks Nyquil
Over-the-counter diet aids with phenylpropanolamine (Dexatrim, Accutrim)
Over-the-counter nasal sprays (Vicks inhaler, Afrin)
Asthma medications (Marax, Bronkaid tablets, Primatine Tablets)
Prescription medications (Amfepramone, Cathne, Etafediabe, Morazone,phendimetrazine, phenmetrazine, benzphetamine, fenfluramine, dexfenfluramine, dexdenfluramine,Redux, mephentermine, Mesocarb, methoxyphenamine, phentermine, amineptine, Pholedrine, hydroymethamphetamine, Dexedrine, amifepramone, clobenzorex, fenproyorex, mefenorex, fenelylline, Didrex, dextroamphetamine, methphenidate, Ritalin, pemoline, Cylert, selegiline, Deprenyl, Eldepryl, Famprofazone) Kidney infection, kidney disease
Liver disease, diabetes


Cocaine - Substances or Conditions which can cause false positives

Kidney infection (kidney disease)
Liver infection (liver disease)
Diabetes
Amoxicillin, tonic water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenoxide View Post
Redwood have a wealth of experience in analytical and forensic chemistry. Their tests are designed to be extremely specific and robust because they know that to retain the contracts they hold for probation testing that their tests must be suitable. Unless you have some technical details about their test that you are disputing then that accusation is rather baseless I'm afraid. And as I said before, the synthetic cannabinoids that Redwood test for are not found in legal products, because the cannabinoids they test for are controlled substances.
Again, similar metabolites can cause a false positive in quick tests like the dipsticks or the testing cups. I'm not arguing that more advanced testing wouldn't be able to differentiate, because I know better.

You should also take into consideration human error. No one, not even the best analytical or forensic chemists, are immune to error.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenoxide View Post
Andandamide has nothing to do with the synthetic cannabinoid tests that Redwood perform. Neither does AM-404. They do not test for either of those substances, nor do either of them share any structural relationship with the controlled substances that they do test for that is likely to lead to a false positive.
You should read about Tylenol a little more. Or the chemistry that leads from anadamide to AM404. Also, since you seem to be an expert on the subject of newly emerging research chemicals, how about you enlighten us all on their metabolic pathways and their metabolites.

I'll be waiting for that one, because not many know for sure.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenoxide View Post
No they're really not similar at all.. you're reading far too much into the names. There is no structural relationship between the two and they are very easily distinguished by LC-MS/MS. What you are suggesting is akin to saying that cyanide and sugar are related because they both contain carbon. Mass spectrometry is a fair bit more sophisticated when it comes to distinguishing between compounds.

Probably not the Lamotrigine, as I've said before. Here it is just speculation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenoxide View Post
No it's not possible. They test for hydroxylated derivatives of the several specific cannabinoids that are named in their testing documentation. The test is designed to be selective for metabolites of these specific illicit substances. As I said they've got a wealth of experience in this field.. they know what they're doing when it comes to constructing a suitable assay.
So, it is entirely impossible that other substances have the same or similar metabolites as these substances. Doubtful. This is also again assuming that they're magical robots from the year 10,000 that were created by demigod aliens that are again immune from error. See what I did there?

plshelp added 13 Minutes and 23 Seconds later...

I should also mention I live in Twin Falls, ID, the number one hotspot for spice in the country thanks to Hayze. It could very well be that they were testing their product here. Has anyone else ever encountered a testing stick from Redwood Toxicology? This is where my probation department said they came from.

Post Quality Evaluations:
Rather rude to someone offering you valid advice
Extremely antagonistic.

Last edited by plshelp; 07-06-2012 at 06:12. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #19  
Old 07-06-2012, 06:42
Phenoxide Phenoxide is offline
Research Chemicals Forum
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: 11-10-2009
Male from United Kingdom
Posts: 4,521
Phenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond reputePhenoxide is a true resource and beyond repute
Points: 19,872, Level: 20 Points: 19,872, Level: 20 Points: 19,872, Level: 20
Activity: 28.3% Activity: 28.3% Activity: 28.3%
Re: Lamotrigine causing false positive for various synthetic cannabinoids

Quote:
Originally Posted by plshelp View Post
Impossible, since it was a dipstick. It has positive or negative for synthetic marijuana. That is all.
The dipstick tests sold by Redwood test for the following:

Tests include:

AMP (amphetamine)
BAR (barbiturates)
BUP (bupe)
BZO (benzodiazepines)
COC (cocaine)
EDDP (methadone metabolite)
M-AMP (methamphetamine)
MDMA (MDMA)
MTD (methadone)
OPI (opiates)
OXY (oxycodone and related drugs)
PCP (phencyclidine)
PPX (propoxyphene)
TCA (tricyclic antidepressants)
THC (cannabis)

None of these panels are designed to test for synthetic cannabinoids. The antibodies in the THC panel do not cross-react with the synthetic cannabinoids they test for (i.e. JWH-018, JWH-073, JWH-250, JWH-210, JWH-081, RCS-4, and AM-2201) because these are all structurally very different from THC and therefore do not contain the epitope the antibody is raised against. If testing for synthetic cannabinoids is requested then the urine sample is sent off to Redwood to be analyzed by LC-MS/MS on a QqTrap mass spectrometer.

Quote:
I said analogues of them, not the cannabinoids themselves. Their metabolites would still be similar enough to trip a test. How else do you explain all other false positives?
The false positives you refer to relate to immunoassay tests, not LC-MS/MS. The false positive rate for mass spectrometry is substantially lower since as I said before it provides a number of characteristic features (LC retention time, mass to charge ratio, isotopic distribution, fragmentation pattern) that allow unambiguous identification of specific molecules.

Quote:
You should also take into consideration human error. No one, not even the best analytical or forensic chemists, are immune to error.
And if you think this is the case then by all means contest the result. I think that analyst error is unlikely to be the reason for the result though. I can only agree with one of the early responses to this post that at this point you seem to be desperately clawing for a reasonable doubt defense by any means necessary.

Quote:
You should read about Tylenol a little more. Or the chemistry that leads from anadamide to AM404. Also, since you seem to be an expert on the subject of newly emerging research chemicals, how about you enlighten us all on their metabolic pathways and their metabolites.
I can categorically state that AM-404 would not produce an MS/MS transition consistent with the ones Redwood use to screen for synthetic cannabinoids. No cleavage of AM-404 could result in a metabolite with an m/z ratio consistent with that of the cannabinoids Redwood test for. AM-404 also lacks the indole moiety of these synthetic cannabinoids which would be evident in the MS/MS spectrum.

Quote:
So, it is entirely impossible that other substances have the same or similar metabolites as these substances. Doubtful. This is also again assuming that they're magical robots from the year 10,000 that were created by demigod aliens that are again immune from error. See what I did there?
I see someone being childish and sarcastic to someone that has taken the time to offer some input on their situation. Is that what you wanted me to see? If you re-read my original post you'll see that I used the word impossible in relation to your suggestion that Redwood test for naphthalene to indicate the presence of synthetic cannabinoids. This is impossible because it's not what they do. Beyond that are false positives possible? Yes. Highly improbable though.
  #20  
Old 07-06-2012, 15:48
Mr. Jiki Mr. Jiki is offline
Titanium Member
 
Join Date: 02-12-2010
32 y/o Male from United States
Posts: 93
Mr. Jiki is on the way upMr. Jiki is on the way upMr. Jiki is on the way upMr. Jiki is on the way up
Points: 401, Level: 3 Points: 401, Level: 3 Points: 401, Level: 3
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: Lamotrigine causing false positive for various synthetic cannabinoids

Seems I've been gone forever with a heavy workload. Actually there are some companies that do sell dipstick style "spice" tests.

K2 drug test -Spice drug test strips

DrugCheck® dip test for K2

Airmed Biotech K2/Spice Urine Rapid Test

Forgive me, but I can't remember off the top of my head about how to save the sites to the server so the links won't go dead, I'll do that later today.

Puppy's lab has some dipstick style spice tests, and they were tested on known urine samples that were positive for the 5-OH-Pentyl metabolite of JWH-018 at 286 ng/ml via GC/MS. The dipsticks did come out positive when tested on that urine sample. But since the dipstick tests are about ~$5 a piece we have not done any further testing on lower level samples. And the test was only done on 1 lot number, so we are in the process of obtaining different lot numbers and eventually test out these dipstick tests on lower concentration positives.

Post Quality Evaluations:
great research!

Share this on:

Thread Tools


» New Threads
My high Loperamide results...
Last post by haxard
3 Replies, 80 Views
M1 vs MDMA?
Last post by thirdeyelasik
2 Replies, 36 Views
Heroin & Klonopin will I go out...
Last post by gmeziscool2354
1 Replies, 32 Views
You know you've got Meth Paranoia...
Last post by loss=addiction
11 Replies, 1,008 Views
Bad news. FDA not allowing Kratom...
Last post by gmeziscool2354
11 Replies, 294 Views
Drug warning after a teenager ends...
Last post by cra$h
4 Replies, 421 Views
Suboxone induced dreams?
Last post by RainbowJunkieForever
8 Replies, 4,795 Views
Scared of the withdrawals but i...
Last post by dilliedepressed
10 Replies, 1,171 Views
Helping a loved one: intervention...
Last post by hotdogfrenchfries
50 Replies, 14,360 Views
ive finally jumped from 20 year...
Last post by Jels
167 Replies, 8,150 Views
» New Wiki Articles

Sitelinks: Information:

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:35.


Copyright: SIN Foundation 2003 - 2014, All rights reserved
"Wiki" powered by VaultWiki v3.0.20 PL 1.