Dear Drugs-Forum readers: We are a small non-profit that runs one of the most read drug information & addiction help websites in the world. We serve over 3 million readers per month, and have costs like all popular websites: servers, hosting, licenses and software. To protect our independence we do not run ads. We take no government funds. We run on donations which average $25. If everyone reading this would donate $5 then this fund raiser would be done in an hour. If Drugs-Forum is useful to you, take one minute to keep it online another year by donating whatever you can today. Donations are currently not sufficient to pay our bills and keep the site up. Your help is most welcome. Thank you.
I was just doing some reading and read that:
Phenethylamine (β-Phenylethylamine) is an alkaloid and monoamine. In the human brain, it is believed to function as a neuromodulator or neurotransmitter (trace amine).
It has been suggested that phenethylamine from food (e.g., chocolate) may have psychoactive effects in sufficient quantities. However, it is quickly metabolized by the enzyme MAO-B, preventing significant concentrations from reaching the brain.
But if one would eat MAOIs which would block the MAO-B enzyme, would then the chocolate have any effect?
I know what are MAOIs but I didn't know before that there are two types.
There are two types of MAO: MAO-A and MAO-B. Both are found in neurons and astroglia; MAO-A is also found in the liver, gastrointestinal tract and placenta. Outside the central nervous system, MAO-B is mostly found in blood platelets.
Sorry but my english isn't that good and I don't fully understand this text. What are platelets?
What would happen if MAOIs and chocolate are consumed together?
In Erowid, chocolate is mentioned under this topic:
FOODS TO USE WITH CAUTION
(½ cup or less than 120 mL)
Chocolate - is safe to ingest for most patients, unless consumed in large amounts (Anon, 1989; McCabe, 1986). http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/maois/maois_info2.shtml
SWIM would also be interested in this one. If he's going to get MAOIs in his hands some day, he just might give it a try. Chocolate also contains theobromine, caffeine+ other methylxanthines and anandamide, endogenous cannabinoid. In addition to phenetylamine thing, chocolate is known to raise dopamine levels, which would also be prolonged and increased by inhibition of monoamino oxidaze.
that sounds interesting, because its well-known that many substances can act as a drug when combined with MAOIs. But this could be also dangerous, especially when chocolate and MAOIs are combined, because chocolate is on the list of foods and drugs that are dangerous with MAOIs because of its caffeine (and probably theobromine) content. If swiy wants to try this, he should start at a VERY low dose of MAOIs and gradually raise the dosage if no unpleasant side-effects occur. Also, I think it would be best if you would use something like decaffeinated chocolate (I've never seen somthin like that b4, but it probably exists.
Always be careful with MAOIs and start with low doses of reversible(!!!) ones. So dont use antidepressives which are maois cuz these are irreversible ones (last for weeks). A good source of reversible maois are passionflower and syrian rue seeds (harmine and harmaline).
If you want to try this I'd suggust Chocamine or another chocolate extract, or straight PEA for that matter and some Deprenyl. If it's PEA you want Deprenyl is the best way to go MAOI wise since it only inhibits MAO-b in regular doses.
Selegiline (Deprenyl) inhibits only the MAO-B enzyme (it is a selective MAO-B Inhibitor). It would be the best choice for keeping PEA in the system without getting metabolized.
The half-life of selegiline is 2 hours according to Wikipedia, after that time, the MAO-B gets re-activated and will metabolize the PEA.
jarka, even if deprenyl doesn't have any dietary restrictions and stuff like most MAOIs, SWIM would use pure PEA (I have heard that it's legal and available in supplement shops) instead of chocolate. If your monkey will try this, please post the experience here!
the theory is that it would cause a neurotransmitter cascade involving primarily the tryptamine transmitters (DMT, 5meoDMT). the problem is of course that it would also increase the strength of the methylxanthines in the chocolate...and what exactly is to stop the possible dopamine cascade THAT would cause? too dangerous to study IMHO.
Another cool thing about PEA is that is is the primary neurotransmitter that is released when a person falls in love. High levels of PEA could very well be a better aphrodisiac than XTC. And PEA has very little , if any peripheral effects(e.g. nervousness, anxiety).
It seems that pretty strong extracts of theobroma cacao are making the rounds in the entheogen community, coupled with extracts of natural mao-b inhibitors. Is there any experience of these combinations?
Yes, it is well established that PEA alone does nothing, even though some bodybuilder-site type vendors are trying to push it as a supplement by free samples in return for "test logs" which of course or filled by either placebo experiences coupled with loyalty to the vendor as well as logs with the person taking PEA also taking a ton of other supplements, nootropics etc. According to many of those, PEA in doses from 500 mg to several grams produce psychological and physiological effects, but SWIM highly doubt their testimonies.
But now SWIM thought we primarily primarily were discussing PEA and other constituents of cacao and chocolate in conjunction with MAO inhibitors.
What would happen if one were to consume MAO inhibitors and chocolate? Well the methylated xanthines would accumulate in the brain and put you at risk for a hypertensive crisis, Worst case scenario that is. More likely then not, unless using concentrated extracts or large quantities of 90% or nibs, you'll merely feel uncomfortable. Feel free to ask me for further details when I'm not so tired. You can also follow the tags to me paper Blood Sex and the Bitter Water, though the chemistry sections is less then finished, I just got new info to fill it up.
(Bumping really old thread thanks to Google. Not stopping using swiM because I like it :P)
SwiM's living, breathing cake has had moderate success mixing kava and chocolate. It started taking kava during a period of extreme stress, and found it to relieve said stress enough to prevent a nervous breakdown, and feel okay about things. Notably, it did this without causing a sensation of feeling 'high' or otherwise altered. The cake used to call it its 'have a good day' drug, as its primary effect seemed to be protection against high stress levels which seemed to make that period of time that much better.
Anyways, back to the combination of kava and chocolate. The cake had heard that kavalactones were mild MAO-B inhibitors, and with this information decided to try a combination of chocolate and kava. The cake was taking around 3-4 kava capsules at a time during this period, and bought a VERY rich chocolate bar. It took probably 3 kava capsules and ate chocolate, then went to work. At work, the cake had a mild euphoria - more than the overall stress-numbing effect of kava itself. It was enough to make the cake slightly giggly and smiley, and overall in a good mood when otherwise the night would have been rather stressful.
But even more noticeable was the sensitivity to tactile stimulation. Similar to MDMA, the cake had a desire to feel things, touch things. It would stretch its arms out and run its fingers, hands across things. All kinds of things. It felt good to do so. This continued for about an hour, maybe an hour and a half.
The cake must note that this effect, while comparable to MDMA, was not nearly as potent as said substance. It was rather mild, however it was definitely more than placebo. It did feel as if the cake was high.
Later experiments with this combination (using lesser quality chocolate and lower amounts of kava) did not have as much of a tactile effect, however the combination did definitely provide a mood-lift that was larger than kava provided alone. As cake mentioned, it has never felt 'high' from kava itself, but the addition of good chocolate was enough to cause the effects described above.
I think this is still relevant, at least to me... I've been experimenting with cacao and MAO-B inhibition. Kava is a likely source of inhibition, as are many others I have found. There's a thread on DF of herbal MAOI's you might be interested in.
You know you are activating phenyethylamine right? So it can reach the brain at levels up to 1000x stronger than normal and lead to an amphetaminelike effect?
You should do a bunch of research so you know the risk of a cardiac event. The content of xanthines in cacao is much lower than in chocolate.
There's tons of research on combining PEA with MAO-B inhibitors all over the 'net. Be safe.