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picked up a bottle of "liquid hydrocodone" bottle is labeled as followed
Hydrocodone/APAP 7.5mg/500mg/15 ml
So I suppose it's called the Lortab Elixir
Bottle says take 15ml every 4 hours for pain, took 15ml bout an hour ago and feeling a bit warm and buzzed but that's it.
What's an optimal dose, this is my first time with opiates but as of right now not feelin to much.
Well, I feel obliged to give a disclaimer to an opiate naive person - first off you need to know that you're stepping into a whole new world of heaven and hell, especially using something as strong as hydrocodone. You can start to get a sense of the potential mid and long-term consequences of opiate use by perusing the various opiate forums, especially addiction and recovery.
Obviously you're going to experiment anyway and that is your perogative as an adult, but there is a very important caveat on using a solution with APAP or acetaminophen. APAP is seriously hepatoxic and just plain awful for your liver. It's the foremost cause of acute liver failure and the number one drug overdosed on in the western world. There is a big risk having a bottle of delicious drugs and getting carried away here (I know I would struggle to have the self-control myself). So the limiting factor on how much you can safely take at one time is not actually the hydrocodone, it is the APAP.
The safe dose of acetaminophen is 1,000mg (1 gram) on a single occasion, and 4,000mg per 24 hour period. Both parts of this limit are important, as acetaminophen toxicity can be induced following either an acute overdsose or a gradual build-up. Now there are many people, myself included, who have consumed far more than this in a single sitting, but many of those people were admitted to hospital and/or sustained liver damage, myself included.
Normally we could completely mitigate this risk by performing a cold water extraction or CWE which separates the opioid from the APAP, but from what limited information I can find this is not possible with a hydrocodone solution. Does anyone else know of a working method for extracting hydrocodone from a solution?
To actually answer your question, I would recommend taking twice the standard dose (30ml or 15mg of hydrocodone) for a recreational buzz.
I ended up taking bout 75 ml which was bout 37.5 mg of hydro. and 2500mg of apap
just been feeling dizzy and a bit nauseus for an hour but it's not so bad if I lie down. But i took 15 ml, than waited an hour and took another 15ml. Then waited 45 mins took another 30 ml and took another 15 ml 20 mins after that. So it was pretty spread out.
Nk, that is incredibly dangerous. 2500mg of APAP in that timeframe is really not good for you and there is no excuse to be taking that much. Despite what you said, your dosing was not "pretty spread out" for that amount of acetaminophen. You will probably be all right, but you could have seriously damaged your liver. To the best of my knowledge, there is no fool-proof way to extract hydrocodone from these types of solutions, so you really need to watch how much you are taking due to acetaminophen within. I really can't stress enough how unhealthy what you did is. As Exitlude said, the max single dose of APAP you should be taking is 1,000mg, and you should not be taking more than 1,000mg in a 4-6 hour period. So, once again, no-- your way of dosing was not spread out enough. Your liver is an incredibly important organ and you will destroy it if you do enough of that kind of abuse.
Furthermore, please UTFSE or just read around more carefully before posting. The question of how much hydrocodone to take for a recreational dose has been answered hundreds of times on here. Right on the main Opiate Forum you will find this: Complete List of Opioid Doses. It gives the recommended doses for opiate naive persons, which you are, and had you read that you would have seen you took approximately 150% more than you should have. Between that dose and all that APAP, I'm not at all surprised you felt so nauseous.
SWIM has a pretty high tolerance to hydro, my cat swim recommended dose would be about 50mg of hydro. the Tylenol in it makes it difficult not to get nauseous. however my cat does hydro almost every day and the Tylenol doesn't make him sick anymore. but my cat loves the warm feeling it gives him, not to mention it gets rid of all his problems.
Roxy, I need to step in here. The OP explicitly stated this is his first experience with opiates. I understand your tolerance to opiates is on the higher side, but 50mg is nowhere even in the ballpark of a "starting dose." If you wish to advise opiate naive individuals on a proper dose to begin with, I suggest you use the search function and do some reading on what are appropriate doses of different opiates for those who have never used them before. There is (potentially) a BIG difference between what someone takes themselves and what someone recommends to another person depending on tolerance, and this time you have definitely confused the two.
Furthermore, please do some reading on APAP's (Tylenol) effect on the liver in high doses. APAP is a hepatoxic substance, and consistently taking doses greater than what is recommended may lead to liver damage or failure. It's not a joke. The maximum amount of APAP anyone should take in one dose is 1,000mg, and the maximum amount in a 24 hour period (not a day-- 24 hours) is 4,000mg. Just because the acetaminophen "doesn't make you feel sick anymore" doesn't mean it's not potentially doing damage to your liver, especially if you're exceeding those limits. You must, MUST restrict your APAP intake to the numbers I just gave you.
Even better, you could be performing a cold water extraction (CWE) on your pills. I'm sorry I can't provide a link easily in this post as I am on my phone, but putting in "cold water extraction of codeine" in the DF search engine will bring you where you need to be. Web though those intstructions reference codeine with APAP, they work for all pills containing a water soluble opiate (good) and APAP (bad). In other words, they will work on hydrocodone/APAP. Please seriously consider starting to do this.
Edit: below are two links for cold water extraction. Please read it. It's a lot of information, but the process itself is actually quite simple and not very time consuming... Not to mention it could literally save your life.
Understood, and I do care for your cat's well being (as well as the OP, and as well as anyone who might stumble upon this). Just in the future, it would be good for you to read through all the details more carefully. Perhaps you weren't aware of how toxic APAP is to the liver before this, but now you know. In addition, it's good to be aware of what kind of preparation of hydrocodone is in question, as it obviously comes in both pills and liquid solutions.
While APAP can be easily removed from pills, it cannot be extracted from elixirs, which is what the OP was asking about. So, not only would 50mg be a very large dose for mostopiate naive individuals, in the case of this poster, he has a set amount of 500mg of APAP for every 7.5mg of hydrocodone. Therefore, 50mg of hydrocodone would also come along with around 3300mg of APAP in one go that he doesn't have the luxury of removing via CWE. In the future, when advising doses for opiate naive users, it's probably best to ere on the low side or redirecting to a few very helpful charts on DF so you don't have to guess. You may have a naturally high tolerance, you know?
For your future reference, and for the OP's, here's a great chart and another post right beneath it (#2) that covers standard first time doses that should work for most opiate naive individuals, including various ROAs. Check it out when you get the chance, here's a link: Complete List of Opioid Dosages (which I also linked to in my post #4).
I know you have plenty of experience and I'm sure you know your own body. But for people who have little-to-no experience with these drugs, it's just important to remember you can always add, but never subtract.
Edit: For the record, none of this is to say you can't share your personal experiences. We welcome personal experiences! But, as I said the first time, there's a big difference between saying "My cat did this much his first time, but wouldn't necessarily recommend it as it's a pretty hefty dose for the non-opiate tolerant user" and flat-out recommending it to someone else. Everything I said here is really just trying to be helpful, so I do hope nothing comes off as patronizing or me trying to beat you up. These things happen, it's no big deal, as long as you learn from it.
Well baZING, my cat took your advice and got some without APAP. My Cat loves the clean High and you probably saved his liver. Thank you for all your help. (my kitty is flying right now!) Is there a link you can give me to extract the APAP from the HYDRO with APAP? my cat would appreciate it!
If you (or anyone reading) has Vicodin, Lortab, Norco, etc... any generic pill (not solution) that is composed of hydrocodone/APAP, you can just perform a Cold Water Extraction (CWE) on whatever you intend to take. You'll see I left the links at the bottom of post #7. Post numbers are in the upper right hand corner in the dark blue bar. But, for ease, here they are again:
As I already mentioned, these are for CWE extraction of codeine, but will work on any water-soluable-opiate/APAP pill. Those instructions are also for very large amounts of pills (i.e. a whole bottle of codeine). So, if your cat is only extracting, say, 5 pills or so, just use much less water. My dog Sparky personally recommends around 1.5 oz. per 1000mg of APAP, possibly a little more. That much water isn't necessary to dissolve the opiate, but a little extra water helps with the filtering process. Too little water and it will just get caught in the filter. But, it's not rocket science, so just do some reading and play around with it. Any amount of APAP you can remove is a good thing.
I don't want to derail this thread too much further, so if you have any more questions, please just PM me or leave me a visitor message.
I myself have taken up to 7500 mg's of APAP mixed with my hydros in a 12 hour period very frequently, can anyone give a website or somewhere to go that can specifically explain what that is doing to my liver and why?