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  #1  
Old 29-02-2012, 20:37
lfrider92 lfrider92 is offline
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First time heroin use question

A friend of mine decided that he wanted to try heroin for the first time and is not sure at all on the dose. he doesnt know anyone that has ever used it and took him over 2 months to finally find someone that could get it.

He has been injecting oxycodone 30 mg for about 3-4 months now and wants to step up, on an average day he injects between 300-400mg

He was able to find the tar form and bought a gram and if someone could give him an idea on how much to do he would appreciate it. he has a scale for marijuana purposes so a weight number would be ideal instead of "about this big of a piece"

he wants to inject it and knows how to prep it and get ready safely, but the dose is unknown. he was thinking about .2 gram but his friend said that was way to much. Also, about how long does it last? Any information would be appreciated

cheers
  #2  
Old 01-03-2012, 01:19
Memoryburner Memoryburner is offline
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Re: First time heroin use question

The problem is there's no real one size fits all dosage for first time users. We have no way over the internet to know your cats tolerance, the potency of what your cat has, or any of the other factors that come into play with something like this. No one can really give your cat a good answer, because no matter what, the answer could be extremely dangerous.
  #3  
Old 01-03-2012, 01:45
Rightnow289 Rightnow289 is offline
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Re: First time heroin use question

I would seriously advise against shooting black tar heroin. It very quickly ruins veins and has been known to be a cause of necrotizing fasciitis. Skin eating bacteria for the layman.

Also there is no way to know how strong the heroin is so anyone who replies would be simply hazarding a guess which would be pretty dangerous.

Be wary of those people you mentioned who can 'get' it. The heroin world is full of people ready to rip the freshman's dry because they know they can as they are naive about the whole world of heroin and what is the right amount and the right amount to pay. just a friendly warning and sorry I can't be of more assistance to your original post.
  #4  
Old 01-03-2012, 02:50
captaintripps Gold member captaintripps is nu online
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Re: First time heroin use question

First let me say that injecting 300 to 400 mg of oxy a day is a lot. My guess is that your friend has a pretty good tolerance. Black Tar is pretty nasty stuff and normally not that strong. But you never know, he could stumble on a very clean batch. I would guess, and that is all it would be is a guess that he would be disappointed with .2 g. But always best to start small and work your way up. You can't really take it out once it is in.

Second he might want to try smoking the tar the first time he uses it. Gives them an idea about the high, which is different than the oxy. Once they find out the proper dosage for smoking, they could smoke some oxy(on a different day) and try to get the same level of high. This will give them a ruff idea of how much they should do. Please note that this will be a rough estimate as the bio availabilities of smoking tar is different from the bio availability of smoking oxy. Same with injecting. But it would give a frame of reference.

Junkhead23 is correct about the dangers of shooting tar. I know someone who almost had to have their arm amputated for exactly the reason he stated. Also, even if that does not happen, it will ruin the veins much quicker than cleaner opiates. It is also hard on the lungs and frequent smoking will lead to breathing problems.

Hopefully, your friend will not do this alone, just in case something goes wrong. Might also want to do some "house cleaning" in case 911 has to be called.

Good luck

Also , I see you are a newbie. Just so you know it is normally considered good form to let us know how things worked out for your friend, even if they make the decision that this is not the thing for them to do. Which would probably be the happiest ending for this story,

Last edited by captaintripps; 01-03-2012 at 03:22.
  #5  
Old 01-03-2012, 05:11
cra$h cra$h is offline
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Re: First time heroin use question

to do this safely, there's two things I'd suggest.
1) don't shoot tar. Smoking it is the way to go. Especially if this is long-term. Just brows around this forum and you'll see how ill-advised and all the horror stories of shooting tar. It's nasty shit.
2) find a connect that you know well and that you can use with. If someone who has a similar tolerance they can guide you on how much you should use for desired effects. Finding someone who's sharing what they already have and have already used is your best bet. This way you minimize the risk of an OD and you find someone you can rely on until you're familiar with heroin and can establish other connects.

I have to put emphasis on point two. I can't tell you how potent the dope you're about to use is going to be. Stick with those who understand why you're doing what you're doing and want what's best for your well-being. Using the same shit as they got is a half decent way to gauge trust with a person. But if it's just a random street dealer, I'd hold off until you can do things safely. Heroin isn't a joke. I know oxy use ain't either, but as similar as they are, they're two totally different monsters.

In short, take you're time and be safe. It will save you a lot of stress/money in the long term. And if this is going to last more than a month, it's going to matter. Trust.
  #6  
Old 01-03-2012, 20:26
lfrider92 lfrider92 is offline
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Re: First time heroin use question

thank you for the comments,
it looks like for his first time he will just start very small and work up til he recieves desired effects. as for finding a real dealer, my friend doesnt know anyone in that game, my friend is 19 so still hangs out with his high school friends and they pretty much only smoke weed and smoke oxycodone. (they all go to the same dirty doctor and get 360 each a month). my friend that wants to try H only has tar in his area and it still took about 2 months to track down (its not common AT ALL here, coke and ice can be found like nothing though). he has actually wanted to try it since he was in about 6th grade and has a HUGE needle fixation, its almost a fetish, even before he had ever IV'd anything he had a needle fixation, they fascinate him. so he has his mind set in IV'ing it and not smoking it.

he is picking it up from his friend tonight and doing it tomorrow and he will have a friend around when he does it for sure.

as for extended use, he plans to buy that gram and not buy it again strictly because its SOO hard to get his hands on. so he doesnt think the problems that come with shooting it should be to much of a problem. he just wants to know if the hype in his head is as great as he thinks it will be. if he had a real dealer and has steady access he knows no doubt it would be a normal thing if not daily due to wanting to try it since he was like 11...its already a semi mental addiction. he thinks about it almost everyday and has never even seen it.

thank you everyone for your information. it is much appreciated and great to hear from people first hand which is exactly why i finally joined this forum, ive been reading for a few weeks but just joined.
ill make sure to post what my friend thought of it after he does it.
thanks again
cheers
  #7  
Old 01-03-2012, 21:13
east_of_eden east_of_eden is offline
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Re: First time heroin use question

be careful! i know it's cliche but it really is always better to be safe than sorry here. some of the posts i've read say "black tar isn't that strong" or "you might be dissapointed with .2grams" .... stuff like that.

i just want to mention something i've said before on this forum. i've known two people (recently) that have gotten SO high from a tiny shot of black tar and one went into an overdose (paramedics called and all that).

when i say "tiny" i'm guessing at way less than a dime bag, probably half or even less than that. one girl already had an oxy habit and used to IV heroin so she did a cotton shot. Literally she was just given the cotton from the shot someone had just cooked up (clean needle and cooker) and put some water in the cooker with the cotton and pulled that up as a shot.

that immediately put her into an extremely heavy nod. i was surprised to hear how strong the effect was for someone already using oxys everyday.

so yeah, it could be different for you, it depends on so many things, but please don't underestimate the strength of black tar heroin or what a small amount it really takes for a first timer to feel (especially when IV'd). if it's not what you expected, you could always do more. maybe increase in amounts of less than a tenth of a gram, maybe more like a fifth.

the first time swim shot heroin, she split a small amount (this was 15 years ago and she has no clue how much it was) with another person and they both went into the land of nod instantly and that one shot kept them there for hours and hours. it was really strong and she was lucky to get to just the right place on the first shot, it was just this side of the line of what would have otherwise been too much.

when she thinks about it now, she realizes how easily she could have gone over and how naive she was about it.
  #8  
Old 02-03-2012, 04:42
captaintripps Gold member captaintripps is nu online
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Re: First time heroin use question

Quote:
Originally Posted by east_of_eden View Post
be careful! i know it's cliche but it really is always better to be safe than sorry here. some of the posts i've read say "black tar isn't that strong" or "you might be dissapointed with .2grams" .... stuff like that.

i just want to mention something i've said before on this forum. i've known two people (recently) that have gotten SO high from a tiny shot of black tar and one went into an overdose (paramedics called and all that).
Since my post is basically being quoted, I would like to put my comment in to context. First I do not disagree with anything the East_of_Eden is saying. In fact my post suggested smoking it to get an idea of the strength to get a frame of reference with the oxy.

According to the press there is "killer" black tar heroin coming into the country that is up to 80% pure. Also according to many sites that compare opiates to one another, oxy is about 75% as strong as heroin. So if that is to be believed, one could say that milligram for milligram oxy which is 100% pure are roughly equivalent. So the posters friend is basically doing .3 to .4 grams of 75% black tar heroin right now.

When I was smoking the stuff I was getting it basically right off the brick so to speak. I will not go into specifics but I have every reason to believe that what I was getting was not cut, at least on this side of the border. According to many press reports the typical tar seized at the border is about 40%. I was able on a couple of occasions to get some what was called "pure". It was about 2.5 times as expensive and at least twice as good as what I was used to. This was very hard to get, even though the people I went through sold in very large quantities. It was basically sold to do what they called "layovers". This is essentially the reverse of cutting. They would take 3/4 of a oz and add 1/4 of the pure. They would then sell the product to "connoisseurs' at a premium price. It was not sold on the street in the pure form. That is not to say others did not.

I knew a dealer who was getting the same stuff as I was. He used to do a full step on it. So was cutting it in half. He sold several ounces worth a day to experience addicts. He never had trouble getting rid of the stuff. So for the sake of argument, lets say it was 20%. Street addicts would sometimes middle to inexperienced users and cut it even more. This was all happening in a place where Tar was very common place.

Assuming that the typical purity was 20%, that would mean the posters friend was doing 1.2 to 1.6 grams a day of tar equivalency. If that was the case with the posters friend might well be disappointed in .2 grams.

But the fact is you never know, unless you know people who are familiar with the product. It is also problematic having an experienced user try to gauge what a first time user should do. The poster says his friend does not know anyone who can help with dosage. Which is why I suggested that if the posters friend knew what the smoking equivalency was between the Tar and the oxy. And knew the ratio of smoking oxy to injecting to get the same effect, they could take that number and divide and get an idea of what to inject. I was not suggesting that it would be safe to do .2 grams. as in the unlikely event that it was very pure, it could have a very tragic result. However, I think it is probably more likely as junkhead23 suggested, it might be a novice being taken advantage of. But it is like Russian Roulette, five out of six chances for a good outcome. But the sixth one is very bad indeed.

After rereading the post, I do regret not being more clear on this point. I guess from my frame of reference, the big problems with black tar come from the impurities and the damage done to veins and lungs, rather than possible overdose. But then most of the people I know who do it are smokers and the few injectors I know, have been doing it for years.

Also the numbers I used were for comparison only to try to explain what I meant. Anyone wanting to do comparisons should do their own research, not only to comparable strengths, but to bio availability as well. They should also consider whether their sources are reliable. Please do not rely on my numbers.

But I will standby the fact that injecting 300 to 400 milligrams of oxy is a very large amount. Doing this is bound to have a very nasty withdrawal. The posters friend might want to be thinking about getting out before months turn to years. In the time frame discussed this is very rapid escalation. No telling what will happen with heroin which is both cheaper and stronger. But I doubt it will be very pretty.

Last edited by captaintripps; 02-03-2012 at 05:54.
  #9  
Old 02-03-2012, 20:54
eisenheim eisenheim is offline
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Re: First time heroin use question

SWIM had a similar situation where he had to pull out the syringe in the middle of a shot because he felt the rush to be too strong (first world problems?). It was tar. SWIM would just break it up, dilute, and shoot. Although tbh, SWIM would just smoke it. Shooting black tar is not the healthiest decision.
  #10  
Old 02-03-2012, 21:31
kailey_elise Gold member kailey_elise is offline
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Re: First time heroin use question

Honestly: smoke it.

I had been injecting East Coast H4 powder Heroin (Boston area) multiple times a day for YEARS without issue. 3-4 days of shooting black tar Heroin when I was visiting Seattle caused my vein to collapse. Yeah. Start shooting black tar & you won't be shooting ANYTHING for very long.

Smoke some to test for purity, and booty-bump it if you need a decent amount to get high. Seriously. Injecting BTH is NOT NOT NOT recommended. Not in a "Heroin is bad - I recommend you don't do that" way, but in a "junkie to junkie, I really recommend you don't inject that shit" kind of way.

Don't delude yourself into thinking "I'm only doing Heroin just this once". Especially if you're already an oxyhead. Trust me - you'll just get new friends. Don't go into this blind - be aware that people throw their lives away for Heroin every. single. day. And you are probably about to do the same. An oxy habit, even an IV oxy habit, often pales in comparison to a Heroin habit. Trust me, you got it once, you'll get it again. You'll find a way. Fuck, I didn't even live on the West Coast, and it took me less than 2 days to get a Heroin connection. If you want it bad enough, you'll find it. And you'll want it bad enough.

Anyway, though milligram for milligram oxycodone is stronger than Heroin, it's not that simple of a conversion. They are different chemicals, and there are different 'varieties' of strong opioids in BTH (morphine, diacetylmorphine (aka "Heroin"), 6-monoacetylmorphine, etc), so it tends to hit hard & different than oxy. Start small & be careful - you can always have more.

The stuff I was getting was pretty clearly cut with some kind of coffee. I'd do a hit & get high, then it was like I was getting high AGAIN about 30 minutes later, cuz I'd start nodding like a motherfucker. My best guess is that caffeine was also becoming "active" during injection (poor man's speedball?), and that I went into a super-nod when the caffeine wore off. It scared the shit out of me the first time, because I wasn't prepared for it. There's another reason not to inject it - if I hadn't already been neck-deep in an IV Heroin habit when I went on vacation (& I had methadone as a backup, or I never would have even gone there), I *NEVER* would have considered sticking that shit in my veins once I saw it. Eww.

Anyway, be safe.

~Kailey
  #11  
Old 02-03-2012, 22:28
lfrider92 lfrider92 is offline
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Re: First time heroin use question

Thank you for the advice, although my friend would love to do it again it really is not worth the hassle of trying to find a dealer as I know nobody that has ever done it. I'm sure everyone has heard this a million times and just laugh at it, but my friend is very fortunate when it comes to drugs which is why using the needle never scared him even with oxy. He has never had an addictive personality and picks up and quits drugs like nothing without ever feeling a withdrawal. My friend gets 360 oxy a month and they are gone in about 2-3 weeks, never last longer then 3. He goes on a binge and does 10-15 a day until gone or given away to friends. Even after 3 weeks straight of 10+ pills a day he has no withdrawal symptoms when he runs out and has no need or craving to do them and can be off them 2-3 weeks with no problems. He considers himself very fortunate in that aspect. That's why using the gram he got then not doing it again isn't to scary for him. He knows heroin is an entirely different level then oxy but still isn't to concerned (I'm sure everyone has heard that a million times)

On a side note, he didn't want to wait til tonight to try his dope so he did it last night and absolutely loved it. It was everything he was hoping it to be and more. His friend came over to be there in case something happened and he weighed out a .05 and mixed it up and shot it and was in pure heaven before the plunger was all the way down. He Layed down and started playing call of duty like he loves to when on pills and about 10 minuts later wanted more. Mixed up another .05 and shot it and felt ten times better then ever his craziest oxy days. It felt like a truck had hit him dead on how intense the rush was. After the second shot he nodded off very quickly and his friend woke him up around ten minutes later to make he was good and not sick. After about another hour and a half he was still feeling great and his friend wanted to try it, (his friend has an oxy script to but never has touched a needle and just smokes them) so he wanted to smoke the tar and not IV it obviously so the two of them broke out the tin foil and smoked about another .1 and where both in heaven.

Next morning when my friends alarm went off to go to work he expected to get out of bed and feel terrible, to his surprise he felt just like he would after a night of oxy so he got up, took a shower and was about to leave for work when an idea hit him. " I bet work would be great on heroin" so he mixed up a very small shot(about a .03) and injected it as well as 90mg of oxycodone and left for work. 7 hours later and another .03 and 30mg of oxy he still feels great at work.

Thanks everyone!

By the way, sorry for any spelling errors, all this has been posted from my iPhone

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Good experience.
  #12  
Old 03-03-2012, 02:42
captaintripps Gold member captaintripps is nu online
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Re: First time heroin use question

Quote:
Originally Posted by kailey_elise View Post
Honestly: smoke it.


Anyway, though milligram for milligram oxycodone is stronger than Heroin, it's not that simple of a conversion. They are different chemicals, and there are different 'varieties' of strong opioids in BTH (morphine, diacetylmorphine (aka "Heroin"), 6-monoacetylmorphine, etc), so it tends to hit hard & different than oxy. Start small & be careful - you can always have more.


It is hard to get good comparison numbers on the internet. What seemed to be reliable sources, gave different numbers. I tried to be conservative with my numbers, as I was doing my best not to minimize the strength of the tar. Better to low ball the strength of the oxy, than the smack as the posters friend was experienced with the oxy and a first time heroin user. That is why I put the disclaimer about not relying on my numbers and to do ones own research. My point was someone injecting 300 to 400 milligrams of oxy, is not exactly opiate naive. This is not like someone smoking a couple of 80's on a Friday night.

Your point about the variety of opiates brings up a point I had forgotten. When you withdrawal from Black Tar, you are withdrawing from a variety of opiates, that have different strengths, effects and half life's. This can make for a very dirty withdrawal. Withdrawal from oxy can be intense, but it is fairly straight forward. Withdrawal from the tar can have very strange peaks and valleys. Something to consider, before one gets addicted to it.

One final note. In the previous post I mentioned the "layover" process. Normally they did a pretty good job with it and it just seemed like a higher quality batch. However one time I got an oz that was a little different. When I got home I broke off about 0.5 gram and turned on the history channel and was going to have a little smoking session. I was pleased with the high I got and went back upstairs and played my guitar for a couple of hours. Decided it was time for a little recharge and went back downstairs, broke off another 0.5. I made 5 little balls and was just going to smoke one at the time and periodically smoke the others throughout the evening. I took one good hit and got one hell of a rush off it, I then heard a noise and realized it was my lighter bouncing off the floor. My head was between my knees and my straw was dangling from my mouth. I did not smoke any more that evening, but the next morning I smoked another little ball and got very high off very little. The rest of it would turn out to be hit and miss in terms of quality. Ranging from good to totally amazing. The problem is if I was an IV user and had assumed that the entire oz was of the same quality as the first 0.5 grams, I would have been in trouble when I hit one of the stronger pieces. Just one more potential hazard to consider and one very hard to control for. Of course this can happen in reverse, when a product is poorly cut.

Last edited by captaintripps; 03-03-2012 at 04:26.
  #13  
Old 10-03-2012, 06:48
Cabraboy Cabraboy is offline
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Re: First time heroin use question

Smoking it on foil is the best way, it's called chasing the dragon, it is safe cause you can't OD and you would know straight away if the gear is shit, cause if it's cut alot you will get that burnt sugar taste when you inhale it, by the way you should be telling your friend to stop while he still can.

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Dangerous and incorrect information. It is much safer to smoke heroin that to inject it, but that does not make it safe. You can OD from smoking heroin. Not to mention other health risks.

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