Resuming drug use after troubling experience w/ cannabis?

[Poke my Bunny]

Please read this post before reading the current one.


It's been four months since that incident. I've been going to counseling, and I am no longer feeling delusional at random points during the day. I am not depressed any longer, and I am slowly finding friends (this was a problem for me, I had no friends). My questions is this: Is it safe for SWIM to start doing other drugs? SWIM won't do marijuana for quite some time, trust me. But as for shrooms, LSD, coke, etc, things I haven't yet tried; is it safe? Should I even do it? The most interesting thing I can think of is drugs. I really want to try everything, but I don't know if I should. What do you all think?

[Alfa]

No, that is not safe at all. Stay away from psychedelics for a while. The effects that SWIPMB described to get from smoking cannabis(weed induced psychotic episodes) are a very strong indication not to use hallucinogens or cocaine. The problems you describe above, puts SWIPMB's experience into perspective. It's very good that SWIPMB is doing better and I strongly suggest that SWIPMB will pursuit this trail further. It seems that SWIPMB is mending. Using hallucinogens will likely address the problem in a unscrupulous way. So recreational use would be very unwise in this stage. Please cancel the 'I want to use everything' approach. Try to find other means of pleasures in life for now.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Excellent advise. And I want to push you reputation above mine so people can hate you instead!

[hh339]

I really have to agree with alfa, u should try to stay away from psychedelic drugs for some time. I think drugs actually could help people with your type of problems, but you seem to have the wrong approach to them..no offence but drugs are not for anyone anytime. if you crashed this hard from using cannabis, imagine what LSD could do to you. wait until you are feeling well before experimenting and do not lie to yourself, you are not immortal. in my opinion you should be feeling good without drugs before you start taking them or else you could be putting your psychic health in great risk of more damage. be safe, peace

[Poke my Bunny]

SWIM understands exactly what you mean, both of you. SWIM doesn't understand how you know SWIM's approach to drugs, hh339...

SWIM's approach to drugs is this: SWIM uses drugs as a life-enhancer. SWIM enjoys life greatly, but SWIM believes drugs can enhance SWIM's entertainment and happiness. SWIM doesn't use drugs as a crutch, and SWIM doesn't use them when SWIM is depressed. SWIM feels he is very educated before he tries any drug. Before SWIM used marijuana, SWIM read at least 200+ hours on it's negative and positive effects. Obviously, SWIM had never heard of "cannabis induced psychotic episodes".

I have two more questions for you:

1. I feel well now, but occasionally (once per week or once every other week) I will feel 'lost' for a few seconds. When I say lost, I mean I totally forget everything that I have ever learned. I am just there, but I don't mean anything. When this ends, I feel pretty scared, and I have a few seconds of panic, but it goes away. This has never happened before the incident, is it directly caused by this? If it is, how and when will it go away?

2. What exactly causes "weed induced psychosis"? Does it happen often?

[hh339]

well maybe I misunderstood swiy, but "I really want to try anything" sounds kind of desperate.

1. it really does not sound like swiy is enjoying life, correct me if i am wrong but "life-enhancement" can be easily confused with escaping the real problems. swiy might not even know it, but there can be lots of stuff lurking under the surface. I am not claiming to know your condition, but the "psychosis" is usually not caused by the weed itself. it can however do a good job helping a psychosis to occur but the real problem is usually not the weed itself.

2. The drug induced psychosis seen when Cannabis is the main substance being abused is distinct phenomenologically from other psychosis.

It is unusual for such a psychosis to occur without other drugs being involved to some extent and so it is difficult to tease out the differences between the effects of Cannabis and other drugs.

However it is misleading and dangerous, to our youth in particular, to label Cannabis as “soft”. In fact the serious adverse effects of Cannabis have been known for some time now and Hall and Solowij in the British Journal of Psychiatry sounded warnings in 1997 about such issues as dependence on Cannabis, adolescent developmental problems, permanent cognitive impairment as well as involvement in and the development of psychosis.[1]

There are suggestions that in a small number of cases Cannabis is capable of precipitating psychosis, going on to the chronic picture described below, in people who have had no family and personal history of psychiatric illness.There have been suggestions that such people may be the ones who have started Cannabis in their teens and caused disturbance to neural connectivity. However, it seems Cannabis can precipitate or exacerbate a schizophrenic tendency in a characteristic manner.[2]
ACUTE SYMPTOMS OF CANNABIS PSYCHOSIS
International Classification of Diseases (ICD-10)

Often the combination of symptoms makes one suspicious that schizophrenia is present but at the same time there is an affective component. There may be the suspicion that the condition, either in part of whole, is feigned for reasons that are unclear because the pattern of symptoms do not fall easily into the usual criteria for psychosis. Drug taking is often denied, or the amount that is admitted by the patient is so little that one cannot say that this accounts for the current symptoms. Worse still, patients may not even consider Cannabis as an illicit or dangerous drug and so do not mention using it. Hallucinations are vague and delusions may be transitory with little in the way of thought disorder. There is often a lack of volition and a history of gradually deteriorating social ability and contact with others, including significant others. This history will often be verified by relatives and close friends who may be either completely ignorant of the drug taking, or confirm that there has been some in the past but believe that there has been little drug taking recently. There is often a depressive component with suicide attempts in the past but nothing recent or, if there is, then they are only ineffectual pleas for help. The person has usually lost his or her job some months or weeks before due to their poor performance at work. There is often very poor memory and concentration, which may be marked at the time of presentation. Paranoid delusions may be present and quite severe which can be the most alarming psychotic feature and result in hospital admission. If confronted with aggressive and authoritarian staff, who indicate verbally or non-verbally, that they do not believe the patient, the patient may become violent or simply leave against medical advice. There is a slow and gradual effect of cannabis and the symptoms continue to worsen for some time after the person stops using it. Thus by the time of presentation the person may be so disorganised and confused that they can’t even arrange their next “cone” or “joint”. Over the following few days the symptoms ease quickly. The improvement is easily credited to the neuroleptics and/or the antidepressants, which may in fact have contributed to the improvement. Symptoms such as the paranoia, hallucinations and depression fade until the patient is allowed to go on leave from the hospital and, a worsening of the symptoms may follow this. More often than not the nursing staff are the first to become suspicious that drugs have been taken when the patient is on leave from the hospital.

It could even be that the drug screen only indicated small dose drug taking or even absent. The International Classification of Disease indicates the following symptoms due to Cannabis.

“There must be dysfunctional behaviour, as evidenced by at least one at of the following:

(1) Apathy and sedation

(2) Disinhibition

(3) Psychomotor retardation

(4) Impaired attention

(5) Impaired judgement

(6) Interference with personal functioning.

C. At least one of the following signs must be present:

(1) Drowsiness

(2) Slurred speech

(3) Pupillary constriction (except in anoxia from severe overdose, when pupillary dilatation occurs)

(4) Decreased level of consciousness (e.g. Stupor, coma)
F12.0 Acute intoxication due to use of cannabinoids F12.0 DCR-10

A. The general criteria for acute intoxication (F1x.0) must be met.

B. There must be dysfunctional behaviour or perceptual disturbances including at least one at least one of the following:

(1) Euphoria and disinhibition

(2) Anxiety or agitation

(3) Suspiciousness or paranoid ideation

(4) Temporal slowing (a sense that time is passing very slowly, and/or the person is experiencing a rapid flow of ideas)

(5) Impaired judgement

(6) Impaired attention

(7) Impaired reaction time

(8) Auditory, visual or tactile illusions

(9) Hallucinations, with preserved orientation

(l0) depersonalization

(11) derealization

(12) Interference with personal functioning

* increased appetite
* dry mouth
* conjunctival injection
* tachycardia.”

[3] DSM IV also has similar but less complete information under the heading of Cannabis Induced Psychotic Disorder and refers the reader to a general description of “ Sunstance*Induced Psychotic Disorder”. That is the difference in the phenomenology of Cannabis Psychosis and other substance induced psychosis is not made, however this is now rather dated being 1994 when published.[4]

It can be seen from this that the range of symptoms is quite extensive and not confined to the core symptoms mentioned at the beginning.
CHRONIC SYMPTOMS OF CANNABIS PSYCHOSIS

Patients are left with the well-recognised and permanent symptoms of memory loss, apathy, loss of motivation and, paranoid ideation. These symptoms known as “ the Amotivational Syndrome” in the past are usually permanent.[5] If Cannabis using resumes then the acute symptoms redevelop. The chronic state can also be arrived at without a preceding psychotic episode. After Cannabis started to be widely used about 20 years ago, for permanent damage to occur it was felt by some that Cannabis had to be heavily used over at least three years [6]. However, there is accumulating evidence that smaller amount will do damage also and in animals “ deficits on tasks dependent on frontal lobe function have been reported in cannabis users” [7]. It is very difficult to conduct research in this area, as it is not acceptable to harm humans by doing trials with damaging substances such as Cannabis. However there is accumulating evidence of the psychological consequences of using Cannabis [8]. It is logical that to get the permanent “ Amotivational Syndrome” small amounts to damage have to accumulate incrementally. All this is in addition to the recognised danger of a recurrence of a pre-existing illness, such as Schizophrenia or Manic-depressive disorder. There are suggestions that Cannabis “ caused schizophrenia in young people and (or) enhanced the symptoms, especially in young people poorly able to cope with stress or in whom the antipsychotic therapy was unsuccessful”. [9] Caspari found “patients with previous cannabis abuse had significantly more rehospitalizations, tended to worse psychosocial functioning, and scored significantly higher on the psychopathological syndromes "thought disturbance" (BPRS) and "hostility" (AMDP). These results confirm the major impact of cannabis abuse on the long-term outcome of schizophrenic patients”.[10]P


References

[1] Hall W, Solowij N, “ Long-term Cannabis use and Mental Health “ 1997 British Journal of Psychiatry, August, 171:107-8

[2] Hall A, Degenhardt, “Cannabis and Psychosis” Australian National Drug and Alcohol Research Centre, Presented at The Inaugural International Cannabis and Psychosis Conference 1999 , Melbourne 16-17 February 1999

[3] World Health Organisation, Geneva, (1992) “ The ICD-10 Classification of Mental and Behavioural Disorders”

[4] Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders , Fourth Edition, American Psychiatric Association,1994

[5] Schwartz RH “Marijuana: an overview”. Pediatr Clin North Am 1987 Apr;34(2):305-17 .

[6] Boettcher B, Medical Journal of Australia 11/25 December 1982 “Marijuana and Apathy”

[7] Jentsch J D, Verrico C D, Le D, Roth RH, “ Repeated exposure to dleta9-tetragydrocannabinol reduces prefrontal cortal dopamine metabolism in the rat “ ,Neurosci Lett (1998) May 1;246(3):169-72

[8] Hall W, Solowji N, Lemon J, The health and psychological consequences of Cannabis use. National Drug Strategy Monograph Series no 25. Canberra: Australia Government Publishing Service, 1994

[9] van Amsterdam JG, van der Laan JW, Slangen JL, “Cognitive and psychotic effects after cessation of chronic cannabis use “ Ned Tijdschr Geneeskd 1998 Mar 7;142(10):504-8

[10] Caspari D, “Cannabis and Schizophrenia: Results of a follow-up Study” Eur Arch Psychiatry Clin Neurosci 1999;249(1):45-9


Dr Brian Boettcher Consultant Psychiatrist Shelton Hospital, Shropshire’s Community & Mental Health Services NHS Trust, Bicton Heath, Shrewsbury, SY3 8DN

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Concise, interesting and best of all you list the references: Good effort
	good fetch!
	Detail is good... refs even better...

[Poke my Bunny]

Well, I've never been depressed... at least not in the past. Recently, I've been realizing why my life... well, it kind of blows. I'm not suicidal, I've never been. I've never been masochistic, and I never will, I guarantee it. I am going to counseling for something other than just that one incident, though. My counselor is helping me out a lot. My main problem is the fact that I really don't have any friends.

I guess I'm just rambling... Anyway, I'm going to print out what you sent hh339 and give it to my counselor. Hopefully we can 'fix' me. As for now, I'm going to stay away from drugs, and stick to meditation and binaural beats. Thanks a lot, I appreciate it.

[Alfa]

You might want to review if your health basics are good: sleep, food(including supplements) & exercise.
Without those physical conditions being in the clear, there is little chance of psychological progress.

[Poke my Bunny]

My sleep has been more regulated recently. I used to have insomnia a year back, but I've been doing good with my sleep patterns now. I'm very skinny, (6'0" 125 lbs) but I eat a lot. I think... sometimes I'm just not hungry. I haven't eaten breakfast in a long long time. I went to a holistic healer, and she recommended I take Omega 3 fatty acids, once in the mornign and once atg night for three weeks. The problem is I have a bad memory (ADD) and I forget to take it. I took it for about a week and a half and totally forgot for about a month.

So... how can I get a better appetite, and how can I remember to take my supplements?

[Alfa]

Put the supplements in a spot you'll see every morning. Never place it anywhere else. Start having breakfast. I don't care what, as long as it's somewhat healthy. Take you omega acids afterwards and throw in some high dosed multi's as well. Solgar's VM-2000 will replenish most shortages you might have. http://65.200.170.239/cgi-bin/online...96824544729345
How to get hungry? Leave the morning coffee, if you have that. But a product to make you more hungry is unknown to me. I'd love to know one, so I'll open another thread on that. What drug makes you hungry? Until we have a clear answer to that, you need to use your will power.

Just stuff yourself.

Start by stuffing you cupboards first, so that you have food in your house. That usually helps. lol. Focus your attention on transferring the new contents of your cupboards into your body. Always have food at hand. Take food with you when you leave the house. You'll see that your attention and memory will slowly improve this way.

[Nagognog2]

And avoid psychedelics until you have both feet firmly planted on the ground in your head. Flying without a map to the airports is just plain foolish. You can always do such adventures later in life. But getting lost without a firm ground to come back to will make it much more difficult for yourself now and later.

[Poke my Bunny]

Okay, I have a question about drug induced psychosis:

Does it ever go away? Am I ever going to be able to get high again? I'm eager to try, even if it's jsut one hit. I haven't smoked in over four months, and now all my friends are getting into it, and I feel left out. I know that's not a good reason, but I reall don't want to be out-done by a fucking plant. I've been recovering, I no longer have sort episodes of psychosis, I feel fine. How long should I wait until I try to smoke again?

And another question:

I just started smoking cigarettes because I need somethind to do. Once again, not a very good reason, but I can quit, I have a very strong willpower. Anyway, I've noticed that after one full cigarette, I feel the same effects (at least from what I can recall) as marijuana. Not fully there, but I feel more social, slur my words, and I laugh at ridiculous things. I also get pretty hungry. Is this normal for someone when they first start smoking? If not, why is it happening? I'm not complaining, it's great to be high legally and not go insane. It's just confusing for me.

[a-SalviaLover]

everyone has a unique brain chemistry. Some people's behaviour while high is slightly changed (their reactions are slower), other can't say their names while high. My SWIM often gets really confused while high and not very social thus. He has troubles remembering what he was going to say, because from the moment when he decided to say it to the moment he opens his mouth there are tons of other thoughts brought to his mind and he forgets it. Psychedelics can also do this even to a larger degree. So if weed produces these kinds of effect, then psychedelics and stimulants might also do similar things.

And about the nasty psichosis you got, in my opinion, it will go away with the time. Just don't do any drugs until you are fully grounded. And be careful with marijuana. Apparently you are too sensitive to it.

[Poke my Bunny]

How do I know when I am fully grounded?

Also, what about the cigarette thing?

[Poke my Bunny]

I smoked weed twice this past weekend. Once or twice, I felt like I might go into psychosis, but only for a few seconds. Overall, it's pretty cool that I can do it again, but I definitely won't do it a lot.

Can someone please answer my other question(s)?

[Alicia]

Ok poke my bunny, cigarettes yeah why not smoking contribute to the possible odds of you getting cancer why not smoke cigarettes, your board have nothing else to do. smoking cancer sticks is not a good way to occupy your time as well as being addictive and containing various cancer causing compounds. But by all means smoke cigarettes u need to be able to do something in front of your friends to make you look the part while they puff down the joints right? Occupie your time in a good way, read a book, jerk one off, read into your psychosis. As Nag and the others said You maybe better waiting to you are grounded. Weed will always be around and just because it didn't come on again that time doesn't mean it wont come back and if it does that time it might become permanent meaning u could be unwell for a long period of time. Whats ok for one PokeYourBunny isn't for everyone.

[Poke my Bunny]

I didn't need a lecture, sorry.

The only thing I want to know now is why I feel high when I smoke cigarettes, and what the definition of grounding is.

[Alfa]

Originally Posted by Poke my Bunny

The only thing I want to know now is why I feel high when I smoke cigarettes, and what the definition of grounding is.

I can't say why your particular body chemistry is so sensitive to smoking nicotine. But the fact that a cigarette can get you flying does underline that you need grounding. What is grounding? Getting your basic conditions in order.
Physically this means caring for your body: food, supplements, sleep & daily rhythm, exercise, cleansing, etc.
Psychologically this means getting any issues in your life fixed that may threathen your basic piece of mind.

[Alicia]

I wasn't lecturing. but if i was its for your own good sweetie, hmm the reason because your probly getting high of your cigs is because of your neurochemistry, I dont know if nicotine effects serotonin or dopamine but i know its a stimulant. maybe because of your condition that the nicotine is causing you to feel high or feel it in a more pronounced way.

Grounding as in mental grounding is assuming you mean down to earth and generally in control of your thoughts and feelings. Grounding hmmm being in control maybe.

If I was Lecturing You should enjoy my lectures the other boys and gals do to, they always give me great eye contact well I hope they are looking at my eyes anyway....

[Poke my Bunny]

Haha, I didn't mean to be an ass, I just meant I don't really want to hear it anymore than I already have. I've stopped smoking anyway, it's not really all that appealing to me. I'll smoke if someone else is smoking, but otherwise, it's just kind of pointless. I feel grounded though. The only time I don't feel in control is when I'm asleep, or when I'm high. The two times I got high this past weekend, I felt a few times where I was struggling to gain control of where my thought patterns were going a few times. I'm not going to go all out on weed like I used to, but I will do it every once in awhile.

[Alicia]

Hello again, swim herselfs as weird thoughts sometimes they seem without order,sometimes scary thoughts she ignores them or puts it down to the high of the weed, also weed comes with different thc cbd ratios which determine the high wheather it be coachlock or a euphoric head high or a mixture of the two. if u can try and ignore the thoughts by distracting yourself from them. by changing something to your mindset or your environment . Sometimes if there is a concern before u smoke that'll most likely go through yer head or begin to play on your mind during the high after-which can then blossom into paranoia causing thus already small concerns to magnify . If you can stay calm and keep control and keep your usage to as and when it happens u should be ok then again u might not, Just something to think about :P

[Stavrogin]

SWIM had the same problem then he just quitted with weed. Why keep doing something that makes you feel so bad?

And you really shouldnt eat any mushrooms or similar if you are experiencing that pit when you smoke weed.

If you get high smoking cigarettes, it could be due the act of smoking remind you the pit you get in when you smoke weed. Something similar happended to SWIM: even if he wasnt smoking weed anymore, when he saw someone smoking weed he started feeling not to well (anxiety, fear...)

It's all in the mind.


p.s

again, I'm sorry for my bad english, I'm still learning it