Phenethylamines vs. Tryptamines

[a-SalviaLover]

Could you describe the main difference between PEAs and Ts? They are surely both hallucinogenic, but as the structure is different there should be also difference in the high.

[Abrad]

PEAs are generally more stimulating than tryptamines. The overall feeling is also different although SWIM cannot really decribe the differemce.

[Nagognog2]

Indolics like psilocybin make one feel like stretchy-rubber moving as a slippery water - spirit.

Phenethylamines make one feel like a stomp-dance of the Native peoples - more wound up and springy.

The physical effects CAN effect the effects on the psyche. Both are quite capable of bringing one to a gestalt overview of all.

Once one sees beyond the physical aspects, one can achieve the same level with either. Then one can appreciate the subtle variations of the different molecules.

[Dogears]

There is definitely a difference of feel between phens and tryptamines, but iot is hard to describe. It is best experienced directly.

Phens do tend to be more overtly stimulating than tryptamines and have a somewhat amphetamine like feel to them. Some people describe phens as feeling earthy.

[raven3davis]

That is strange SWIM always thought the tryptamines were more "earthy" Especially the narutal ones like psilocybin and dmt. SWIM thinks they can all take you to the same place, just a different route. Some of the phenethlamines are psychadelic amphetamines and they just feel more speedy in general but tryptamines can also feel stimulating. Once you experience a tryptamine and PEA you will get some idea of the differences but some have characteristics of both. Its hard to say that one feels like this and another like that. There is a lot of overlapping between a lot of the chemicals.

[hh339]

tryptamines can make you feel "speedy" as well as phenethylamines can make you trip hard as hell. most often you can feel their characteristics though and decide which is which. every drug have it´s own "personality" but most of the time you can feel where they come from. like people kinda..

[treefingers49]

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16855

[prospero]

For me the most distinctive difference is the visuals. I find the visuals of phenethylamines are softer, rounded, dominated by the colours red, yellow, orange and pink.

Tryptamines are harder, more geometric, and dominated by the colours green blue and black.

The trips themselves are also different but in ways I simply can't put into words.

[glogga]

I don't see how any phenethylamine can compare to the ego crushing capability of some tryptamines like DMT, mushrooms, 4-ho-mipt, and, of course, 5-meo-dmt. 2c-e comes close, but it still has an overall forgiving nature that all of the phenethylamines have. The phenethylamines OTOH seem to have more entactogenic quality. I very often feel deeply connected to things when I use them. I tend to prefer the phenethylamines. They seem better for a more directed purposeful trip, where as the tryptamines (at least the one's I mentioned) seem better for a good hard head smashing.

[GDxCAT]

And then there is LSD.

which to me encompasses the best of both worlds.

[glogga]

Yeah I wouldn't put LSD in either class. Some people classify it as a tryptamine because it has that as part of its skeleton. But LSD and other lysergic acid amides (as those in MGS) are really a class in their own.

[GDxCAT]

^not only chemically but in their effects aswell.

[Dogears]

The effects of lysergic acid compounds are definitly both different and beyond the effcts of phenethylamines and tryptamines. Tryptamines and phenethylamines can be very useful, but LSD goes way beyond all of them. The closest thing SWIM has found to LSD in these classes of drugs is 2-CE.

[fastandbulbous]

Well other than the 5HT2a receptor, which is common to all of them, they all act at different receptors. Tryptamines, for the most part, have affinities for the 5HT2a & 5HT1a receptors, whereas phenethylamines have highest affinity for 5HT2a & 5HT2c receptors. 5HT1a receptor is connected with anxiety (buspirone, an anxiolytic used for the same sort of purposes as benzodiazepines acts via the 5HT1a receptor); can't remember what the 5HT2c receptor is connected with - this is obviously going to alter the nature of the experience between tryptamines & phenethylamines.

Compared with that though, LSD is a virtual nympho - it interacts with the 5HT2a receptor, but also does with at one subgoup of all of the other 5HT receptor (think they're currently at 5HT7, with the 1's & 2's compromising nearly half a dozen each!). Doesn't even stop there! Acid is really promiscuous and has affinities for at least one of the receptors for each of the following neurotransmitters, dopamine, noradrenaline, histamine. It's mostly dopamine that gets hit, various ergolines (lysergic acid derivatives) are used in medicine as dopamine agonists - such as bromocriptine to treat Parkinson's disease. They also have a fair degree of action at noradrenergic receptors - this isn't as pronounced as with dopamine, but some, such as various ergot alkaloids are powerful vasoconstrictors (so that large doses cause ergotism). Because of this, LSD acts on the main neurotransmitter receptors as stimulants such as amphetamine & cocaine. Personally I feel that's what gives LSD that relentless 'in yer face' quality that can become overpowering - it is possible to disconnect yourself from anything but large doses of various tryptamines & phenethylamines, but with other than small doses of LSD it's extremely difficult to 'get your shit together' to deal with unexpected situations (not least of all, the ability to deal with times when it all turns to shit before your eyes). I've had situations where reality would break down into short individual moments, but were unrelated to those before or after - a bit like cutting up a film into lots of short segments then sticking the film back together randomly when trying to get a grip after an average sized dose of LSD; I always manage to get part of me in the real world with tryptamines & phenethylamines, however little it is!

The best comparison would be with the opiates. They all act via the mu opiate receptor, but because of the other receptors they go for you get distinct groups (usually based on chemical structure) so that morphine/heroin/hydrocodone etc feel different to say methadone/dipipanone, which feel different to pethedine/alphaprodine, but they all have the main action in common

Reputation Comments on this post:

	That's right, the Mascara Snake! I love what you contribute to the psych community. Thanks so much.
	Very informative.

[CHeDeLiCHeD]

It seems:

Tryptamines = Inner reflection
Phenethylamines = Outer connection

I recall being told that Natives referred to cactus as being the gates and shrooms being the key.

Very interesting as one will commonly find botanical sources with only one type prominent in connection with where water is most and least present.

[TheBadMan]

The question is silly and some of the generalizations (such as the above) are arbitrary.
First of all, not all phenethylamines or tryptamines are hallucinogenic or active in the central nervous system (CNS) at all. Tryptamine itself, for example, it not a hallucinogenic drug, nor is phenethylamine.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the only thing that can really be called "a phenethylamine" is phenethylamine (same goes for "tryptamine"). The compounds described in TIHKAL and PIHKAL are really substituted phenethylamines and tryptamines (this is really only a minor point - but nonchemists don't get it).

Comparing only hallucinogenic phenethylamines with hallucinogenic tryptamines also breaks down in some specific examples. My first criticism of this kind of comparison is that it is really a pharmacological comparison, but the terminology makes it sound like a structural comparison (when really it says something about pharmacophores - which is far bigger than just "tryptamines vs. phenethylamines" but is really "the action of serotonin G-protein coupled receptor binding phenethylamines and tryptamines in the human CNS" if you accept that neuropharmacology is at the heart of the explanation - if you want to reject the idea that science can explain or shed light on these experiences then there is no point in asking about phenethylamines and tryptamines).
The point is that the structure of the substances is not the only important aspect.

One thing that many people miss and that pisses many off when I point it out is that LSD is both a phenethylamine and tryptamine and this fact has been pointed out in the literature (yes, I'd be happy to give references).
These categories are not mutually exclusive.

In fact, I think most people totally miss the answer with these absurd "tryptamines are analytical and phenethylamines are spiritual" answers (and I think those answers are absolute shit and miss the facts).
Heroin is a phenethylamine.
Dextromethorphan is a phenethylamine. In fact, it is a hallucinogenic phenethylamine, but nobody would categorize it alongside mescaline because it has different receptor affinity and acts at NMDA receptors. Hypotheses about the hallucinogenic effects of drugs like LSD, PCP, ketamine and of psychotic states are taking increasing notice of links between serotonergic systems and glutamatergic systems (drugs like LSD and DXM may share some similar mechanism of action but through different cells and receptors).

It's not just phenethylamines vs. tryptamines.
These drugs have to act via cognate receptors.
They have another, complementary half.

I also have to say that I disagree that LSD is all that unique. For me, LSD is almost identical to psilocin. The most notable differences are that LSD lasts twice as long and is more stimulating. There are subtle differences for me in the details of the experience, but the are pretty subtle. I also find mescaline very similar to both of those. So, for me, the signature drugs from the phenethylamine, ergoline and tryptamine hallucinogens may as well be interchangeable.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good point