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  #1  
Old 28-01-2012, 15:53
AltrdPercption AltrdPercption is offline
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Suboxone WD and Kratom

Well, I got my first batch of 100grams of what they call "Super Indo Kratom" the leaf is very finely crushed into a powder... I first tried making tea with the kratom, however I had nothing around the house that would filter the plant material out of the tea... I even tried a 10mcg hash bag which didnt fully work either.

So I drank my tea with the particles floating around, not much was felt.

I then tried to capsule some kratom, I used around 6-7 grams, two hours later I was still feeling the WD symptoms from ceasing the suboxone.

I thought about plugging for a moment... but then said fuck it were gonna do it the old wash and toss method.

I started dumping out piles of kratom onto a small piece of paper, dumped the powder into my mouth and instantly started coughing/choking.

I began to get very frustrated by this time, So I tried it the other way around,

I put a bunch of redbull into my mouth, then dumped the kratom in and as soon as i dumped it in, swallowed it all.

So far, that is the best way I have found to take it.

I ended up using around 60-70 grams total, but eventually felt very good, not like high and fucked up... but normal. I did not feel any nausea at all, which is what I hear happens at high doses.

Am I to assume I just got a weak batch, or could it have been because my stomach was not 100% empty?


I most certainly like the kratom, but having to consume 60+ grams is insane and I cannot do that every-time I need to feel better.

Input is appreciated!

Thanks
  #2  
Old 28-01-2012, 17:43
Bunnintreez Bunnintreez is offline
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Re: Suboxone WD and Kratom

first of all that is a HUUUUGE dose of kratom....but im assuming a lot of that was wasted and not taken properly. SWIM finds that yes Kratom is great for opiate WD's (swim is currently on Suboxone maintence aswell) I would suggest only taking kratom for a week Max, and slowly taper each day....because u dont want to just end up addicted to Kratom hence dragging out the withdrawals. This is what Swim would do...

Taper down with suboxone, till ur down too 0.5mg or less, then jump off

day 1 of no suboxone take your dose of kratom and then go down a couple grams each day till u only need about a gram or 2 a day, then jump off. The WD's should be minimal, dont get me wrong, no matter what theres gonna be some discomfort but it wont be as bad as jumping off the sub. JUST DONT TAKE HUGE DOSES OF KRATOM FOR MORE THEN 5-7 DAYS, you should be decreasing your dose of kratom each day, because it is just as addictive, and IMO a shitty addiction, cause who likes eating all that terrible tasting shit everyday.

Hope this helps, SWIM plans on using kratom for about 3-7 days after he jumps off suboxone, but no longer then that, cause itll drag out the withdrawals

SWIM suggest "Toss and washing" 20gram of Kratom the first day, then drop down by a couple grams each day. THe point is not to get High, its just to get rid of some of the discomfort and help sleep.

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thanks for all the info - greatly appreciated!
  #3  
Old 28-01-2012, 17:55
AltrdPercption AltrdPercption is offline
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Re: Suboxone WD and Kratom

The reason I got off the suboxone was due to my doctor, she blew my last apt off and forgot to write the date on the script, so the pharma would not accept it, I was not about to go through wd then just hop back on the subs to do it all over again.

Most of the wd symptoms have left, only have chills now and then and achy joints.

10grams of the kratom was using in the tea, and the rest was swallowed, around 7 grams was in capsules the rest of it was not.

I finished what was left of the bag today, however still have the aches and the occasional chills.

Could the kratom have been wasted due to not having a empty stomach?
  #4  
Old 28-01-2012, 18:04
Bunnintreez Bunnintreez is offline
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Re: Suboxone WD and Kratom

^yes it is possible....i also find re-dosing on kratom does not work that well...swim would only take 1 dose ever 8-12 hours on an empty stomach. Swim beleives there is a thread somewhere here on redosing you might wanna look up. And yes since you took all that kratom over 1 day it didnt really help the WD if anything just prolonged it. If swiy used it sparingly and tapered with it over a couple days u probably wouldnt feel as much discomfort. How many days has SWIY been off the suboxone?? swiy might just have to tough it out. Do swiy have any access to benzo's or weed?? swim finds they help trememdously with opiate withdrawal. Goodluck

If swiy has access to benzo's take them sparingly as if it was a short taper, swiy does not want to end up with another addiction

Opiate withdrawal it feels like your dieing, Benzo withdrawal...you can actaully die
  #5  
Old 28-01-2012, 18:16
AltrdPercption AltrdPercption is offline
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Re: Suboxone WD and Kratom

I used benzos the first four days, starting with 4mg, then down one mg a day until I stopped, have had that addiction in the past and certainly do not want to relive it. I also used mdma the first day and the fourth day which greatly helped. It took the cold chills completely away.

I am a compulsive re-doser, has been my downfall for a very long time now.

However, I eventually did feel the effects from the kratom, I was able to get the best night of sleep I have had since stopping the suboxone, and felt rather good when I woke up.

I guess if I had an empty stomach it might not have taken so much for me to feel it?
  #6  
Old 28-01-2012, 18:20
Bunnintreez Bunnintreez is offline
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Re: Suboxone WD and Kratom

Yes you would feel it more if u had an empty stomach. Swim would never take more then 15-25grams of plain leaf at once tho....So i dont no if u just have shitty product or what. Also what i just thought off....what dose of suboxone where u on??? and uve been off it for 4 days? how long where u taking it for??? i was just thinkin maybe suboxone has blocking effects on kratom :S i doubt it...but its possible

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Actually this is an excellent conclusion: Suboxone (buprenorphine) has a very, very long half-life and is a partial agonist/antagonist, meaning it will tend to block the effects of full mu-agonists, such as the constituants of Kratom. Nice instinct!
  #7  
Old 28-01-2012, 18:27
AltrdPercption AltrdPercption is offline
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Re: Suboxone WD and Kratom

Today is day 8 with no suboxone, I was taking 4mg twice daily. Have been on it almost half a year.

I have read posts on here where members say they have had used kratom while being on suboxone with no problems at all.

I ordered from a good source, not stuff from a headshop or anything. Maybe just a bad batch I guess.
  #8  
Old 28-01-2012, 18:35
Bunnintreez Bunnintreez is offline
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Re: Suboxone WD and Kratom

OKay, if i were you id just tough it out....your probably gonna feel some discomfort untill day 14 or so (im talking physically, your gonna feel crapy mentally for a couple months most likley, but thats a given), but it should get easier with each passing day. If i were you, i would stay away from the benzo's (since youve had a previous addiction, and right now you are VERY vulnerable to just getting another addiction) and maybe just smoke some weed if you can to help sleep and get rid of anxiety. I find marijuana is a great help for opiate withdrawal and you can smoke as much as you want without getting scared of getting another addiction...its just weed (dont get me wrong you can get a mental addiction to marijuana, but for someone whos been addicted to opiates and benzo's would probably hardly consider it "an addiction") Just tough it out man, and try not to use!!! your past the worst of it man, keep it up and feel free to PM me. Im on suboxone right now (scripted 12mg a day, only take 2-6mg tho) and jumping off it soon, and have jumped off it twice before. Good luck and if u have any other questions feel free to post here or PM me.
  #9  
Old 28-01-2012, 18:42
AltrdPercption AltrdPercption is offline
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Re: Suboxone WD and Kratom

Yeah this was my second time on suboxone too, the worst is in the past and I can deal with the chills, but the joint pain is what is killing me. It doesnt bother me during the day as much but when I try to sleep and lay still all I feel like doing is moving around.

Jameson helps a little bit, but then again I do not want to drink too much and or every night just to get to sleep, fuck lol that is just as bad as starting benzos again.

I have been smoking lots of pot, just happened that my friend harvested three weeks before getting cut off the subs, so I have a nice stock pile. The pot certainly helps with the anxiety and the mental part but I am afraid it does not help me sleep.

Am thinking about using some dxm tonight, maybe that will work.

Thanks a lot for the replies and thoughts.

Cheers
AP
  #10  
Old 28-01-2012, 18:47
Bunnintreez Bunnintreez is offline
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Re: Suboxone WD and Kratom

I hear ya man.....the RLS is the ABSOLUTE WORST for me!! and i kno what u mean, during the day its not that bad....but once u try to sleep its terrible. Yes, Drinking does help, but not best to do everyday, and then the next morning is going to be significantly worse. Honestly what i used to do is smoked a bunch of weed and do a fat line/bump of Ketamine lol. And it would knock me out cold....but again...dont want another addiction.

I also find Ketamine helps with joint pain/restless legs.....im not recommending people in WD's start doing a bunch of K, im just stating what SWIM did too make sleeping easier. He also hates using ketamine recreationaly, so he was not scared of getting a new addiction, he would basicly use it as a sleeping pill....helped A LOT
  #11  
Old 28-01-2012, 18:58
AltrdPercption AltrdPercption is offline
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Re: Suboxone WD and Kratom

I used to do loads of ketamine, am a pro at cooking to crystals.

It got outta hand once I started shooting, as they tend to.

My biggest problem with K is my repulsive redosing, If im not shooting it, it will be line after line after line lol.

Anyways the last thing I need/want is another addiction lol.

Thx again
  #12  
Old 28-01-2012, 19:07
Bunnintreez Bunnintreez is offline
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Re: Suboxone WD and Kratom

Ahhh i see man, I was not suggesting replacing it with ketamine, jsut stating what i did to help me. So ya your best bet is just stick with the weed and maybe a glass of jameson at night to help sleep. Keep it up man, and let me kno how it goes. Good luck
  #13  
Old 28-01-2012, 19:08
davestate Gold member davestate is offline
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Re: Suboxone WD and Kratom

This is probably a simple case of tolerance. The bupe is many times more potent than the kratom. You say you were taking 2x4mg a day? That's a decent sized dose, and chances are it's just a case of the kratom not being potent enough to get you close to high/normal in the usual doses. How long after stopping the bupe did you take the first dose?
  #14  
Old 28-01-2012, 19:16
AltrdPercption AltrdPercption is offline
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Re: Suboxone WD and Kratom

"Ahhh i see man, I was not suggesting replacing it with ketamine, jsut stating what i did to help me. So ya your best bet is just stick with the weed and maybe a glass of jameson at night to help sleep. Keep it up man, and let me kno how it goes. Good luck"

Thanks bud - I have such an addictive personality I simply cannot do most drugs only once, or say - at bed time lol, they would all be gone long before I wanted to go to sleep.


"How long after stopping the bupe did you take the first dose?"

I took the first kratom on day 7 of no suboxone.

I was thinking tolerance would play a part in it, but I am not looking to get high, simply want to be able to get a good nights rest.
  #15  
Old 28-01-2012, 19:32
ianzombie ianzombie is offline
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Re: Suboxone WD and Kratom

I think it is probably a combination of things.
Mostly i agree with davestate, you are on a fairly decent amount so there will be cross tollerence with the kratom.

Secondly the method you use is important. How did you make the tea that you took the first dose with?
Taking it on an empty stomach will make a big difference.

The type of kratom you use might also not be great. Indo does very little for me, it has never been a favorite of mine. I know many others who feel the same way. There can be a bit of experimentation required before you find what works best for you.

I would recomend you find a good vendor that offers sample packs, or one that allows you to buy in bulk but to have your order split into equal parts of all their plain leaf kratom.

Toss and washing it or mixing it with a small amount of sauce (apple, jam, pesto) or juice is probably the best way to ensure you are injesting all its alkaloids.

Tea is a great method for getting a fast and intense hit but as you are using it to help with withdrawals then T&W on an empty stomach is the way to go.

Try not to take any other drugs at the same time so that you can clearly feel any effect it is having and so you can then find what dose and type works best.

Keep the dose as low as possible. It might take some fine tuning to find the initial perfect dose, enough to help with the WD's but not taking it for the other effects.
As recomended by Bunnintreez you should then start to reduce this dose slowly every day or every other day. Dont be tempted to up the dose to get a buzz from it.

Try to keep redosing to a minimum. If you have to redose during the day try to leave it as long as possible, untill the WD's become a problem and then take it. Try to extend the amount of time between doses every time.

I would recomend you reduce by a gram every couple of days if possible untill you are down to only a couple of grams. Then i would switch to making a regular tea with the 2 grams by just steeping the powder in hot water.
Reduce this by .25 grams every day, it will be a slow taper but it will help you to hopefully avoid any of the worst WD effects such as the Restless Leg Syndrome.

Dont under any circumstance use extracts or enhanced products like UEI, these will raise your tollerence even further and the WD's have been compared to bad opiate WD's by people who have quit both.

Of course you should try to eat well and to exercise as much as possible too, not only will it help your body it will also keep your mind active and off the withdrawals. Stay as active as possible and if you feel like you need to talk then just come back to this thread and get posting.

I wish you all the best. Kratom is an amazing substance and it has the potential to help many people. Keep us up to date on how it works out for you.

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Great advice yet again, a true asset to the site and on this subject.
  #16  
Old 28-01-2012, 20:44
AltrdPercption AltrdPercption is offline
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Re: Suboxone WD and Kratom

The tea was made via a tek found on this site, I can link the thread if anyone wants it.

The company I ordered from said they had no problem breaking one order into multiple types of kratom so on my next order I will be ordering three different types.

I am also thinking of ordering a small batch from another company, just to see if there is any noticeable difference.

I have read that the extracts are garbage and will certainly not order them.

At this point there is no tapering, the kratom is gone.


Keeping active is really the only thing that has stopped me from scoring some H, if I was to let my mind wonder I know that is what would happen. Even just browsing the DF helps (as long as im not in the opiate forum lol)

I have been through these withdrawls so many times now, they do not scare me like they used to and I will continue to face whatever comes. Once I am finally off opiates I know I will have a much better outcome towards life.


On a side note, I got a little off my shoulders today when I canceled my apts with the doctor, I let them know what I thought of a doctor that blows off her patients.

That really had been upsetting me, someone I am supposed to trust and be honest with cannot give me 15 mins of her precious day, what the fuck is that?

None the less, all will be well.
  #17  
Old 29-01-2012, 07:10
trdofbeingtrd trdofbeingtrd is offline
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Re: Suboxone WD and Kratom

If I were you, I would go with advice given here specifically but not limited to "Iamzombie"s advice.

I just wanted to say real fast that "bali" type kratom has helped me and I went from 10g every four hours to 10g every two hours to where I am now which is 6 to 7 g four times a day.

The initial amount you had to take for sure is way to much, but I found that mixing my kratom with orange juice (in powder form) is the most effective for me and not just eliminates any and all withdrawal symptoms (aside from bad stomach the first two days which I take immodium for), but gives me energy I need. It's not something to stay on for life (kratom) I guess but if it helps, it helps.
  #18  
Old 30-01-2012, 01:41
Bunnintreez Bunnintreez is offline
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Re: Suboxone WD and Kratom

that is how swim always takes his kratom, mixes it with orange juice and chugs it down. He ussualy uses this one brand tho "Experience Black Label" pretty damn expensive but 2 packages would keep swim well all day.
  #19  
Old 30-01-2012, 02:10
ianzombie ianzombie is offline
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Re: Suboxone WD and Kratom

Be careful with those extracts Bunnuntreez.
Ive used several of the black label products before and while theyare good for someone with a low tollerence, or new to kratom they do raise tollerence fast.

I found that specific extract to be slightly peppery, and almost impossible to disolve in water. It usually clumped and there was some oily substance.
I was always curious to how they extracted the kratom and if the method used was safe.

The other 'extract' i used to use at the same time was the now infamous Krypton Kratom which was supposed to be a 50x bali kratom extract. It later turned out to contain caffeine and O-desmethyltramadol and resulted in 9 people dieing from an overdose in Sweeden.

While im not saying that the 'experience' range has been adultered, i do think that it had a very negative impact on the overall experience i got from kratom, specifically the loss of effects like euphoria.

I would recomend you avoid them or use them as a treat, one a month and leave several days after you use them before using kratom again.

The WD's from these extracts can be pretty intense, but using responsibly, with a gap of at least 2 days between doses, should help people enjoy kratom for a long time without any loss of effects.

Plus, they are very expensive. For one 3gr pack i could get about 200 grams of good quality leaf. Its not worth it.

Last edited by ianzombie; 30-01-2012 at 14:12.
  #20  
Old 31-01-2012, 06:52
no eff eks no eff eks is offline
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Re: Suboxone WD and Kratom

IMO OP's issue is tolerance. Bupe is extremely potent compared to kratom, so if one were coming off bupe maintenance taking 60g of kratom leaf to feel normal isn't all that shocking to me. I'm opiate naive most every time I pick up kratom, and it takes 20g+ for me to experience much of a nod. After a day of use my tolerance seems to double... which is why I have never used kratom for more than 2 days at a time.

As for the most effective way of taking it... I've tried all the popular methods, and the easiest and most bearable for me is to stuff powdered leaves into big capsules (about 1g/cap). The tea is too inconvenient, and doesn't seem as potent. Toss/wash is just gross. Parachuting was no better than toss/wash given how much plant material you need to ingest. Smoking is worthless, don't bother. Whatever method you use, taking it on an empty stomach will give you a much stronger effect. Forgetting that can lead to a lot of wasted kratom, or a night of hugging the toilet.

I'm not sure I'd recommend using kratom to kick a more serious opiate addiction, but this thread is definitely interesting. Hopefully OP keeps us updated.

Just my two cents... ymmv

Last edited by no eff eks; 31-01-2012 at 07:05.
  #21  
Old 31-01-2012, 23:17
AltrdPercption AltrdPercption is offline
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Re: Suboxone WD and Kratom

I am left thinking that I needed such a high dose due to opioid tolerance and possibly even due to a bad batch of the kratom.

I was not looking to kick the habit with kratom, just wanted to ease the wd symptoms a little so I could get some sleep.


The first night I used the kratom, was the best night I had during the entire wd, which is still not 100% over. I was able to get a full nights sleep, and when I woke up I really felt great, however the feeling didnt last long, and wd symptoms soon came back.

The second day, I ate the remaining kratom on an empty stomach and no effects were felt.

So my experience was slightly alright, it did ease wd for 13-14 hours or so , but it wasn't what I was hoping for/expecting. I guess I let another drug talk itself up in my head as the savior lol.

Overall, the wd is almost over it seems. Still have minor aches and pains, am smoking loads of pot which does seem to help, my tolerance for it had almost reset itself during the time I was clean and on the subs, been so stoned lately lol.

I am also experiencing more chills, which really sucks considering I work outside from 8-5 . The chills are not steady like they were in the first few days , they are come and go but when they do come they seem to stay for so long.


One of these days, gonna be the one when I wake up and feel good finally. Hoping it is here sooner than later!
  #22  
Old 04-05-2012, 06:43
MiSsFaNcY MiSsFaNcY is offline
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Re: Suboxone WD and Kratom

Quote:
Originally Posted by AltrdPercption View Post
The reason I got off the suboxone was due to my doctor, she blew my last apt off and forgot to write the date on the script, so the pharma would not accept it, I was not about to go through wd then just hop back on the subs to do it all over again.

Most of the wd symptoms have left, only have chills now and then and achy joints.

10grams of the kratom was using in the tea, and the rest was swallowed, around 7 grams was in capsules the rest of it was not.

I finished what was left of the bag today, however still have the aches and the occasional chills.

Could the kratom have been wasted due to not having a empty stomach?
I recently have been saved with suboxone from a bad addiction. I have a very high tolerance to opiates. I too wanted to try Kratom so I ordered a gram of Thai and boiled half the bag drank it and felt nothing. Not sure if the sub blocked it but I also let my bf try it and he wasn't on sub his tolerance is the same as mine though and he didn't feel the Kratom either. So I believe it has to depend on a persons tolerance to opiates. Yes Kratom has alkaloids in it that work as opiod agonists but I come to find those alkaloids are a bit weaker than those we are used to that are from the poppy plant and reconstructed into chemically stronger opiates like heroin and oxy

MiSsFaNcY added 4 Minutes and 6 Seconds later...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiSsFaNcY View Post
I recently have been saved with suboxone from a bad addiction. I have a very high tolerance to opiates. I too wanted to try Kratom so I ordered a gram of Thai and boiled half the bag drank it and felt nothing. Not sure if the sub blocked it but I also let my bf try it and he wasn't on sub his tolerance is the same as mine though and he didn't feel the Kratom either. So I believe it has to depend on a persons tolerance to opiates. Yes Kratom has alkaloids in it that work as opiod agonists but I come to find those alkaloids are a bit weaker than those we are used to that are from the poppy plant and reconstructed into chemically stronger opiates like heroin and oxy
And I don't believe I meant one gram I meant more like 30 just to clear that up

Last edited by MiSsFaNcY; 04-05-2012 at 06:43. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #23  
Old 15-07-2012, 01:48
Countthedays Countthedays is offline
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Re: Suboxone WD and Kratom

I have been an opiate addict since I was about 21 yrs old. I'm 26 now, and have been bouncing back and forth between opiates (norco, percocets, suboxone, etc) since then. The main reason why I got hooked was motivation and the feeling that I wasn't as good at my job/ and people without taking them. I am an artist that works almost everyday and is expected to always dish out the best work possible. There was time when I was on suboxone for 2yrs. I actually kicked suboxone a little over 2 yrs ago and was opiate clean for almost a year. After a few months of being clean my symptoms from PAWS were making me feel insecure followed by high amounts of anxiety. I fell back on Norcos a little over a year ago. The day I relapsed, I was surrounded by artists that I looked up to and admired, I was working and they were all watching me. I felt so nervous and anxious, another artist gave me 2 norcos and that was it. It started with the usual 2 a day, and as my tolerance grew I was taking 10 a day after a week. After a few months of this and meeting with the drug dealers who are the scum of the earth, i was fed up with myself and switched to suboxone...again. It was cheaper to get, lasted longer, and always made me do better at work. So the series goes like this

( norcos/painkillers 2yrs- suboxone 2yrs- clean for about 8 months - relapsed 6 months with Norcos/painkillers- 6 months suboxone- 5 days clean.)

From that start of the subs several months ago to this past Monday, I have been taking about .25 mg of suboxone a day, I have not taken a single crumb since monday. Today is day 4. Once it started to ruin my sex life with my fiance, ( I noticed that ever since I started the subs the 2nd time around it had been extremely hard to keep an erection our better yet even be the mood) I started making excuses for not having sex 3-4 times a week to 2-3 times a month, at my age it was freaking me out. Now as of Day 4 my libido has already seen a change immediately. However, between the chills, flashes, no appetite, stomach issues, foggy sleep, and the lack of energy to even stand right now is killing me. The sheer feeling of my bones wanting to jump out of my skin and my blood circulation in my legs feeling like its flowing full of tonic water (RLS) I've done it once I know I can do it again. I dont remember how I did it the first time, it was such a haze...it was 2 weeks locked in a room with an ounce of weed. I can't do that again, since I get drug tested now. I know I can do this but I don't know how to deal with the PAWS, I don't know how to be motivated anymore without drugs, and I'm aching all over. I've been reading about tapering down to soften the blow...since it's Day 5 would anybody rec taking a small crumb and then waiting another few days to take another? or maybe just taking low dosages of kratom to ease the withdrawal symptoms...or should I just keep going cold turkey?


  #24  
Old 23-07-2012, 16:00
AltrdPercption AltrdPercption is offline
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Re: Suboxone WD and Kratom

Countthedays,

WDing from opiates is different for everyone, so what might work for person x, may not work for person z. During the times I was suffering WD from suboxone I tried a lot of things, and honestly think just suffering through the pain is the best way too go. I have done the go 4-5 days without sub, then take a peice or two , go some more days without however all this does is extend the period of time that you will feel shitty.

You have gotten yourself down too .25mg which is very small, the last time i quit cold turkey suboxone i stopped at 8mg per day my wd was horrible and lasted for two weeks. I think your wd will be much less severe and you will be able to tough it out.

I would suggest speaking to a doctor if at all possible for the paws symptoms, they will not give you any controlled substance, but may be able too find something for you that will help with the symptoms you are reporting.

Please keep us updated on how your doing and if ya have any questions or just need too talk, we are all here for ya.

wish ya the best,
  #25  
Old 25-02-2013, 18:56
stargazer24 stargazer24 is offline
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Re: Suboxone WD and Kratom

Hi guys, not sure if this thread is still active.
Looks like some people had some good success with the kratom. I am considering using it but some of the comments about not taking it for more than a week scared me a bit. I wonder about doing the "Jason" method combined with kratom. Taking kratom 2 out of every 3 days, while trying to take a low dose painkiller once or twice a day to kill the crawlies (obviously not to get high). And gradually reduce the dose of both for the 2 weeks I come off suboxone. Any thoughts?

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